GeneralRisk Game Chat abuse AND forum abuse[Warned] SN

[agentcom]

[See that Quote button up and to the right? Please don't quote this entire message. It's very long.]

Accused:

GeneralRisk

The accused are suspected of:

Game Chat Abuse (bigotry)
Forum Abuse (flaming, trolling and possibly bigotry)

Game number(s):

Game 10951471

Forum:

viewtopic.php?f=239&t=170894

Comments:

The forum above has been locked without explanation. Since I was one of the regular commentators there and (1) others noted the bigotry displayed by GeneralRisk; (2) he does not appear to have been investigated or cleared for his comments in the game; and (3) I posted a question of whether he will be investigated or whether someone has to open a new C&A that was never answered, I can only assume that the locking of the thread is an indication that the mods want someone to file a separate C&A report here.

This is further bolstered by the fact that there was only one poster in the entire forum who appeared to be getting out of hand. Everyone else was maintaining a respectful conversation. Therefore, it looks like the moderators already have a problem with this user's behavior that led them to completely locking a thread. That's why I have broadened the complaint to include forum abuse as well as Game Chat abuse. However, I also understand that these issues should be dealt with separately, and different decisions may result from the different elements of the complaint.

Game chat abuse (bigotry): I will repost the relevant information here. [This is a combination of a couple of posts.]:

Subject: gaerapi78......Bigotry[warned]SN

A "Niger"? The American President is an African nation? I don't get it.

But seriously, if the mods were truly concerned about bigotry, they would warn both of these xenophobic idiots. They both appear to hold and express bigoted attitudes toward citizens of certain countries. Let's go to the tape. In the following, I have bolded the particular chat entries that I believe call for a warning for both players. My description is below the chat excerpts. However, the chat should be interpreted as a whole, so the entire chat has been reproduced.

2012-04-15 07:14:38 - gaerapi78: che culo .. buffone
2012-04-15 07:17:09 - GeneralRisk: ssuk my cock foriegn piece of dog shit
2012-04-15 07:17:34 - gaerapi78: lol
2012-04-15 07:17:40 - gaerapi78: LOL
2012-04-15 07:17:53 - gaerapi78: LLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
2012-04-15 07:18:12 - GeneralRisk: german lol

GeneralRisk does not just bait the guy. He begins by expressing his bigotry taking care to note that Gaerapi is a "foriegn [sic] piece of dog shit." Apparently, laughter was not the desired response from Gaerapi, so GeneralRisk made clear that he was trying to insult his nationality when he wrote "german lol." This prejudiced attitude toward foreigners, generally, and Germans, in particular, seems to be relatively unprovoked. The chat log was silent in the opening minutes of the game until Gaerapi wrote what Google Translate interprets as "that ass ... jester." (BTW, Ass jester is my new favorite insult). From a very brief look online, I think the terms have some connotation of luck (as GeneralRisk had just turned in a rainbow set). I think he was basically saying "you lucky clown" or something similar. But whatever Gaerapi was saying, there doesn't seem to be any bigotry until GeneralRisk began his xenophobic and anti-German remarks.

[To clarify this point based on GR's response (GR's text in red):]

what a joke. Me saying german lol is in your opinion proof that I was insulting his nationality. You are definitely out of your 1st world mind.

It is not saying "german [sic] lol" that makes this bigotry. It is the fact that he has shown intolerance and prejudice toward another person based on their national origin. Look at his very first entry in the Game Chat. He makes it clear that he's not just talking about any piece of dog shit. He is talking about a foriegn [sic] piece of dog shit. This modifier has absolutely no relation to anything else that was happening in the game or previously in Game Chat (as noted, this was the first thing GR said to his opponent).

I see only two ways of interpreting the "german lol" comment: (1) He is laughing out loud at the fact that someone is German, presumably at their expense or (2) this is meant to modify the dog shit comment, as in "you're not just a foreign piece of dog shit; you're a German piece of dog shit." Either way, this is clearly bigotry. Between this and the use of "3rd world" as a derogatory expression [Thank you Evolution for stating this more clearly than I did] to denote either a German or a foreigner (it's unclear), GR has clearly expressed his bigotry in Game Chat.

He offers no intelligible defense to this allegation, either. As such, he should be given a warning.

2012-04-15 07:19:02 - gaerapi78: how's your chocolate face president these days ?
2012-04-15 07:20:24 - GeneralRisk: doing better than any of u 3rd world fuks
2012-04-15 07:20:39 - GeneralRisk: and he is black

[See the original thread for my post on Gaerapi's comments, but that is not relevant here.] Though things are obviously becoming heated at this point, GeneralRisk is the only person that has actually expressed bigotry--based on the nationality of another player.

2012-04-15 07:21:03 - gaerapi78: are you as fat as every fucking person in yr stupid country ?
2012-04-15 07:21:12 - GeneralRisk: good game cocksucker
2012-04-15 07:21:13 - gaerapi78: he's not black
2012-04-15 07:21:21 - gaerapi78: he's fucking niger
2012-04-15 07:21:48 - GeneralRisk: thats bigottry u piece of dogshit

[Again, I will omit my discussion of Gaerapi's comments, but I firmly believe his warning for bigotry was deserved.] At this point, both players have expressed their bigotry based variously on nationality and race.

2012-04-15 07:22:02 - gaerapi78: where are you going for lunch today ?
2012-04-15 07:22:04 - gaerapi78: kcf
2012-04-15 07:22:07 - gaerapi78: kfc
2012-04-15 07:22:14 - GeneralRisk: im gonna turn your 3rd world ass in
2012-04-15 07:22:14 - gaerapi78: burger king
2012-04-15 07:22:17 - gaerapi78: md
2012-04-15 07:22:44 - gaerapi78: lol
2012-04-15 07:22:52 - GeneralRisk: enjoy the warning and or vacation
2012-04-15 07:23:01 - gaerapi78: LLLLOOOOOLLLLLL
2012-04-15 07:23:06 - gaerapi78: F
2012-04-15 07:23:06 - gaerapi78: U
2012-04-15 07:23:08 - gaerapi78: C
2012-04-15 07:23:09 - gaerapi78: K
2012-04-15 07:23:09 - gaerapi78: Y
2012-04-15 07:23:10 - gaerapi78: O
2012-04-15 07:23:13 - gaerapi78: U
2012-04-15 07:23:31 - GeneralRisk: see ya
2012-04-15 07:23:57 - gaerapi78: SAY HI TO MOM
2012-04-15 07:24:06 - gaerapi78: tell her i'll be home later
2012-04-15 07:24:08 - gaerapi78: SON
2012-04-15 07:24:10 - gaerapi78: lol

There's not much to see in the rest of chat, except a questionable reference to "3rd world ass" by GeneralRisk. Given the bigoted context of GeneralRisk's previous statements, this appears to be another anti-German reference. It may be a confused one (I'm not sure who thinks that Germany is a third world country), but it appears to demonstrate GeneralRisk's view of the primacy (or 1st world-ness) of America (and whatever other countries GeneralRisk favors over Germany). This provokes the desired (and somewhat amusing) response of Gaerapi that culminates this heated exchange.

Now, let's look at the relevant rules:

General Rule (http://www.conquerclub.com/public.php?mode=rules):

Our moderation policy for the Forum, Private Messages, Live Chat and Game Chat is outlined in the community guidelines.

Community Guidelines (viewtopic.php?t=7785):

Conquer Club takes a fairly relaxed/liberal approach to what is said on Conquer Club.... Though we take a relaxed approach to what is said on Conquer Club, that doesn't mean that we don't have any rules about what can't be said. Check out the ... Game Chat Guidelines for more specifics.

Game Chat Guidelines (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7785#p2865163):

-Banter and some trash talking IS allowed ... provided it doesn't cross some specific lines.
-While you might find some game chat disagreeable, uncouth, and boorish, cursing and using foul language may not be a breach of our Guidelines.
-That said, what is not allowed is any form of bigotry, cyber-bullying/harassment or those extremes outlined in the Forum Guidelines. Please report any such comments that you find offensive.

It is clear from this that "ANY form of bigotry" is not allowed in chat. In addition (as evidenced by the conjunction "or"), there are other things listed in the Forum Guidelines that are not allowed. Since GR's comments are "any form of bigotry" we need not look to the Forum Guidelines to see if also was in breach of those. Of course, it makes sense to have stricter rules for Game Chat than in the forum, because (1) people can't as easily avoid seeing Game Chat and (2) The games, not the fora, are the primary reason for this site, so we would expect CC to do more to ensure a pleasant gaming experience than a pleasant forum experience.

However, even if this interpretation is rejected, GR still fell afoul of the additional and more specific Forum Guidelines that are implemented by inclusion (in the quoted text above) in the Game Chat Guidelines. These will be more thoroughly discussed below, but since this set of rules applies to both his Game Chat and his forum posts, I will first list the forum posts that may violate the Forum Guidelines.

Forum Guideline violations:

In addition to the posts from Game Chat, the following excerpts may be violations of the Forum Guidelines. I have reproduced the entire content of his forum posts that were in response to my posts (if I left anything out, let me know):

1. Are u for real??

2. Dont call me names you 1st world douchebag

3. what a joke. Me saying german lol is in your opinion proof that I was insulting his nationality. You are definitely out of your 1st world mind.

4. Not all of us 1st world citizens get a equal education and for you to flame me in this manner goes to show you are a first world asshole.

I am a American citizen. I am not bigoted toward Americans> You Sir are a American piece of dog shit.

Please shut your stupid American mouth and get back on your medication.

His posts attempting to insult me may now be more bigoted than what he said to Gae in Game Chat. Note that him being an American would probably not be a justified defense to a bigotry charge on this front. For example, I doubt that "I'm gay" would be a defense to a C&A charge regarding calling someone else a "faggot" in Game Chat.

Relevant rules:

See the above for the General Rule.

Forum Guidelines (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7785#p1759438):

Trolling:

-Posting controversial or irrelevant messages or topics with the intent to provoke someone else into a contest of over-manly confrontation, emotional response, flame fest or to generally disrupt the discussion, community or user is not cool. Prompting or provoking others (Baiting) to do that is just as bad.
-Don't Bait or provoke others. Just because you didn't directly attack another user does not make your post a meaningful contribution. If your post's intent was to provoke another user into an emotional response, to get under their skin or to otherwise piss them off, you're baiting them. Hopefully the user doesn't take the bait, but you'll probably receive a disciplinary action from a mod.
-Don't de-rail topics, don't spam them, don't flame them, don't bait them, don't drive a topic into a negative spiral.
-There is little that is more annoying than a troll. This will get you removed from the CC community quicker than almost anything else.

Note that others and I were trying to keep the discussion on track, but GR kept returning with irrelevant and inflammatory posts. I don't see any other reason for this than to de-rail the conversation or provoke emotional responses. To everyone else's credit, neither I nor others responded in a like manner.

Other unquoted text, says that responding to baiting is also not OK. Since the Game Chat also falls within the above quoted rules, GR cannot use whatever bait or comments that Gae made in the game to justify his response.

Flaming:

-It doesn't matter if another user rubs you the wrong way, that's not an excuse to flame or personally attack them.
-Attacking a person instead of the user is NOT ok - it's all fun and games until it becomes personal.
-Yes, we are liberal on coarse language, but this does not mean cyber-bullying or abusive bigotry is acceptable anywhere. You will be removed from the community for cyber-bullying or abusive bigotry.
-Flaming will get your post edited/deleted and you will receive a disciplinary action from a mod. Cyber-bullying or harassment will similarly result in a disciplinary action, and a ton of bricks.

In this case, GR went beyond the "user" and attacked the "person" of others. Specifically, he began relying on the nationality and perceived economic status of the users to attack them. Whether he was referring to the "German" and "3rd World" Gaerapi or me as an "American" and "First World," these were clearly attacks on the persons involved.

Bigotry:

-Bigotry includes racism, sexism, ageism, homophobia/sexual orientation bashing, religion bashing, lack of religion bashing, or wishing violence on any group of people, etc.
-Bigotry takes into account historic events, emotional baggage and generally accepted associations with a term, phrase or intent - posting "White Power" in a topic has a history and is bigoted, posting "Green Power" makes you an environmentalist.
-Bigotry will get your post edited/deleted and you will receive a disciplinary action from a mod. Bigotry, just avoid it. Just do it.

Obviously, this is a stricter standard than the "any form of bigotry" that is not allowed in game chat. However, the use of the word "includes" does not necessarily mean that forum posts are only judged to be bigoted if they fall into the categories that are explicitly listed. For example, I am not sure why racism would be disallowed but comments directed at a person's national origin would be allowed. Depending on how widely or narrowly the Bigotry provisions of the Forum Guidelines are interpreted, GeneralRisk may or may not have violated the bigotry provisions of the Forum Guidelines. But to me, this is the only questionable issue here.

To recap:

GeneralRisk violated the Game Chat Guidelines' prohibition against "any form of bigotry"
GeneralRisk's comments in both Game Chat and the forum violated the Forum Guidelines prohibiting flaming and trolling.
GeneralRisk's comments in Game Chat and the forum may have violated the Forum Guidelines prohibition against bigotry.

[sniffie]

Here is my first (quick) answer to your post.

The forum above has been locked without explanation. Since I was one of the regular commentators there and (1) others noted the bigotry displayed by GeneralRisk; (2) he does not appear to have been investigated or cleared for his comments in the game; and (3) I posted a question of whether he will be investigated or whether someone has to open a new C&A that was never answered, I can only assume that the locking of the thread is an indication that the mods want someone to file a separate C&A report here.

1: Whether GR maid himself guilty about Bigotry is discussed among the mods, he is cleared for that.
2: How can you be sure that he isn't investigated or cleared. Not everything the C&A mods do is public.
3: This is my personal (newbie) mistake, I closed to topic to prevent it to escalate,this is truly the only reason. Sorry for not giving an explanation.


sniffie

[TheGeneral2112]

Here is my first (quick) answer to your post.

The forum above has been locked without explanation. Since I was one of the regular commentators there and (1) others noted the bigotry displayed by GeneralRisk; (2) he does not appear to have been investigated or cleared for his comments in the game; and (3) I posted a question of whether he will be investigated or whether someone has to open a new C&A that was never answered, I can only assume that the locking of the thread is an indication that the mods want someone to file a separate C&A report here.

1: Whether GR maid himself guilty about Bigotry is discussed among the mods, he is cleared for that.
2: How can you be sure that he isn't investigated or cleared. Not everything the C&A mods do is public.
3: This is my personal (newbie) mistake, I closed to topic to prevent it to escalate,this is truly the only reason. Sorry for not giving an explanation.


sniffie

So is this report cleared?

[agentcom]

Here is my first (quick) answer to your post.

The forum above has been locked without explanation. Since I was one of the regular commentators there and (1) others noted the bigotry displayed by GeneralRisk; (2) he does not appear to have been investigated or cleared for his comments in the game; and (3) I posted a question of whether he will be investigated or whether someone has to open a new C&A that was never answered, I can only assume that the locking of the thread is an indication that the mods want someone to file a separate C&A report here.

1: Whether GR maid himself guilty about Bigotry is discussed among the mods, he is cleared for that.
2: How can you be sure that he isn't investigated or cleared. Not everything the C&A mods do is public.
3: This is my personal (newbie) mistake, I closed to topic to prevent it to escalate,this is truly the only reason. Sorry for not giving an explanation.


sniffie

Thank you for explaining #3. I was wondering about that and I am glad to see that it was just a simple mistake.

On #2, you are right that some things may be done behind-the-scenes. But it would be nice if that was noted in the thread. I realize that there was never a formal report filed (until this one), so I understand that maybe the mods saw no reason to "CLEAR" him.

But related to that and about #1, since we now have a C&A form filed, I would like to see what the actual ruling and reasoning is whether he is cleared or warned. As stated, it seems to me that he is as guilty of bigotry per the Game Chat Guidelines as the person who was actually warned. The only difference is that he didn't use a "bad" word and he may not have been in violation of the (separate issue of) Forum Guidelines bigotry.

[rhp 1]

famo... there's nothing here.. grow some thicker skin

[jghost7]

famo... there's nothing here.. grow some thicker skin

+1

[Lindax]

For example, I am not sure why racism would be disallowed but comments directed at a person's national origin would be allowed.

This. Slippery slope. Discrimination, prejudice, all sounds pretty much like bigotry to me (Including 3rd World as a not-so-national origin).

And there is no question about his (GR) intent.

Lx

[LuckySevens]

Your joking about clearing him surely? It seems GR could reasonable saying absolutely anything and get off scott free?

I would never expect to be allowed to call someone 'a 3rd world peice of shit' - i wouldn't say for instance pick a chinese person and call them 'a chinese peice of shit' either. Because OBVIOUSLY that would be racist and a bigoted thing to do.

If a mod would be willing to give a clear and concise reason for not even warning GR about his behaviour i would be astounded, i don't truly think it's possible.

7's

[jgordon1111]

Agent I have reread the entire log. Can any one give me a clear definition of the first line by gaerapi. Its italian I believe and I have an Idea of what it says. If I am correct the whole chat stems from right there.

Second point, I have seen alot worse get passed by with nothing done about it. My thoughts heat of the moment, some things were said that have pushed the limits of what is and what is not defined in the rules.

I ask that both get a Fair and unbiased ruling,based on past ruling or (non-rulings).

The best I can say right now is one and all Famo. that first line and its intent determines the whole flavor of the chat. Isnt there a rule about only posting in game chat in a language everyone can understand. It shouldnt make a difference that it was 1 VS 1 gaerapi was clearly trying to get a rise out of GR.

Does not matter that GR did not know what was said exactly the intent was there. As I said before If calling someone third world is a crime, the entire media world needs to be notified that they are biased and bigots. Ah but you say gr said third world f**k, Its all context here. many times many games I have seen a player call another one a f**k, nothing is done about it, Why because it's legal by CC definition.

So the crux of this is GR said third world F**k. If you look at it you say bigot, Why? GR knew that gaerapi was from another country, thus the first part which by modern media standards is not bigoted at all,and then the F**k part which not against CC rules. Now you combine them and from a modern media perspective if they reffered to most of the worlds population as F**k's, it would not be bigoted at all.

So its a fine line depending on your perspective whether it was bigoted or not. Retalitory for the first line, yes absolutley.Even as I said GR may not even have been sure of what was said. But he pretty well guessed gaerapi wasnt telling him Bon Chance,Buenos suerte, Etc.

So its only really bigoted if you are specifically bigot hunting. But thats my view,everyone has their own. And the one that counts is Admin.

[Evolution299]

GR joins this guy in a game to opening bait him into getting a warning or punishment. I believe he even admitted to it in the original C&A report. In doing this, he makes a bigoted statement himself and gets cleared.

This is the first sentence in the Rules section of CC:

Cheaters and troublemakers detract from the gaming experience of all Conquer Club players, and proactive measures are employed to protect our membership. Conquer Club reserves the right to suspend accounts and cancel Premium Memberships, with or without warning, of those players who are deemed to have violated the rules.

By opening joining a game and flaming against a person in the hopes of getting him a warning or ban, would that not be against this first statement?

[Jdsizzleslice]

General Risk... Need to control your temper. No need to bigotry dude...

[jefjef]

For crying out loud.

I luv to see ThePackers get their balls ripped off and stuffed in their mouths as much as most everyone else but this complaint is frivolous and wasting valuable server space.

[TheForgivenOne]

Here is my first (quick) answer to your post.

The forum above has been locked without explanation. Since I was one of the regular commentators there and (1) others noted the bigotry displayed by GeneralRisk; (2) he does not appear to have been investigated or cleared for his comments in the game; and (3) I posted a question of whether he will be investigated or whether someone has to open a new C&A that was never answered, I can only assume that the locking of the thread is an indication that the mods want someone to file a separate C&A report here.

1: Whether GR maid himself guilty about Bigotry is discussed among the mods, he is cleared for that.
2: How can you be sure that he isn't investigated or cleared. Not everything the C&A mods do is public.
3: This is my personal (newbie) mistake, I closed to topic to prevent it to escalate,this is truly the only reason. Sorry for not giving an explanation.


sniffie

So is this report cleared?

The report is still open actually.

[TheGeneral2112]

Here is my first (quick) answer to your post.

The forum above has been locked without explanation. Since I was one of the regular commentators there and (1) others noted the bigotry displayed by GeneralRisk; (2) he does not appear to have been investigated or cleared for his comments in the game; and (3) I posted a question of whether he will be investigated or whether someone has to open a new C&A that was never answered, I can only assume that the locking of the thread is an indication that the mods want someone to file a separate C&A report here.

1: Whether GR maid himself guilty about Bigotry is discussed among the mods, he is cleared for that.
2: How can you be sure that he isn't investigated or cleared. Not everything the C&A mods do is public.
3: This is my personal (newbie) mistake, I closed to topic to prevent it to escalate,this is truly the only reason. Sorry for not giving an explanation.


sniffie

So is this report cleared?

The report is still open actually.

But BG said it was discussed among the mods and GR was cleared of bigotry.

[redhawk92]

Here is my first (quick) answer to your post.

The forum above has been locked without explanation. Since I was one of the regular commentators there and (1) others noted the bigotry displayed by GeneralRisk; (2) he does not appear to have been investigated or cleared for his comments in the game; and (3) I posted a question of whether he will be investigated or whether someone has to open a new C&A that was never answered, I can only assume that the locking of the thread is an indication that the mods want someone to file a separate C&A report here.

1: Whether GR maid himself guilty about Bigotry is discussed among the mods, he is cleared for that.
2: How can you be sure that he isn't investigated or cleared. Not everything the C&A mods do is public.
3: This is my personal (newbie) mistake, I closed to topic to prevent it to escalate,this is truly the only reason. Sorry for not giving an explanation.


sniffie

tfo seems to want to pursue a ban on some one every chance he gets?

So is this report cleared?

The report is still open actually.

But BG said it was discussed among the mods and GR was cleared of bigotry.

[betiko]

Agent I have reread the entire log. Can any one give me a clear definition of the first line by gaerapi. Its italian I believe and I have an Idea of what it says. If I am correct the whole chat stems from right there.

Second point, I have seen alot worse get passed by with nothing done about it. My thoughts heat of the moment, some things were said that have pushed the limits of what is and what is not defined in the rules.

I ask that both get a Fair and unbiased ruling,based on past ruling or (non-rulings).

The best I can say right now is one and all Famo. that first line and its intent determines the whole flavor of the chat. Isnt there a rule about only posting in game chat in a language everyone can understand. It shouldnt make a difference that it was 1 VS 1 gaerapi was clearly trying to get a rise out of GR.

Does not matter that GR did not know what was said exactly the intent was there. As I said before If calling someone third world is a crime, the entire media world needs to be notified that they are biased and bigots. Ah but you say gr said third world f**k, Its all context here. many times many games I have seen a player call another one a f**k, nothing is done about it, Why because it's legal by CC definition.

So the crux of this is GR said third world F**k. If you look at it you say bigot, Why? GR knew that gaerapi was from another country, thus the first part which by modern media standards is not bigoted at all,and then the F**k part which not against CC rules. Now you combine them and from a modern media perspective if they reffered to most of the worlds population as F**k's, it would not be bigoted at all.

So its a fine line depending on your perspective whether it was bigoted or not. Retalitory for the first line, yes absolutley.Even as I said GR may not even have been sure of what was said. But he pretty well guessed gaerapi wasnt telling him Bon Chance,Buenos suerte, Etc.

So its only really bigoted if you are specifically bigot hunting. But thats my view,everyone has their own. And the one that counts is Admin.

what the guy said in italian, if you translate it to something giving the same tone and flavour would sound something like this "you lucky ass clown"

che culo = what ass = how extremely lucky
buffone = jester in a very offensive way.

[jgordon1111]

Agent I have reread the entire log. Can any one give me a clear definition of the first line by gaerapi. Its italian I believe and I have an Idea of what it says. If I am correct the whole chat stems from right there.

Second point, I have seen alot worse get passed by with nothing done about it. My thoughts heat of the moment, some things were said that have pushed the limits of what is and what is not defined in the rules.

I ask that both get a Fair and unbiased ruling,based on past ruling or (non-rulings).

The best I can say right now is one and all Famo. that first line and its intent determines the whole flavor of the chat. Isnt there a rule about only posting in game chat in a language everyone can understand. It shouldnt make a difference that it was 1 VS 1 gaerapi was clearly trying to get a rise out of GR.

Does not matter that GR did not know what was said exactly the intent was there. As I said before If calling someone third world is a crime, the entire media world needs to be notified that they are biased and bigots. Ah but you say gr said third world f**k, Its all context here. many times many games I have seen a player call another one a f**k, nothing is done about it, Why because it's legal by CC definition.

So the crux of this is GR said third world F**k. If you look at it you say bigot, Why? GR knew that gaerapi was from another country, thus the first part which by modern media standards is not bigoted at all,and then the F**k part which not against CC rules. Now you combine them and from a modern media perspective if they reffered to most of the worlds population as F**k's, it would not be bigoted at all.

So its a fine line depending on your perspective whether it was bigoted or not. Retalitory for the first line, yes absolutley.Even as I said GR may not even have been sure of what was said. But he pretty well guessed gaerapi wasnt telling him Bon Chance,Buenos suerte, Etc.

So its only really bigoted if you are specifically bigot hunting. But thats my view,everyone has their own. And the one that counts is Admin.

what the guy said in italian, if you translate it to something giving the same tone and flavour would sound something like this "you lucky ass clown"

che culo = what ass = how extremely lucky
buffone = jester in a very offensive way.

Thank you betiko I had it translated as ass clown but wasnt to sure.

So my statement stands,gaerapi was the first to post trying to bait GR,not the other way around as so many of the posters here have thought.

So trying to say GR baited him is way off course and the bigotry part please see the above post for an explaination of how it is not intended bigotry.

Oh and thank all of you for keeping this one civil

[sniffie]

Here is my first (quick) answer to your post.

The forum above has been locked without explanation. Since I was one of the regular commentators there and (1) others noted the bigotry displayed by GeneralRisk; (2) he does not appear to have been investigated or cleared for his comments in the game; and (3) I posted a question of whether he will be investigated or whether someone has to open a new C&A that was never answered, I can only assume that the locking of the thread is an indication that the mods want someone to file a separate C&A report here.

1: Whether GR maid himself guilty about Bigotry is discussed among the mods, he is cleared for that.
2: How can you be sure that he isn't investigated or cleared. Not everything the C&A mods do is public.
3: This is my personal (newbie) mistake, I closed to topic to prevent it to escalate,this is truly the only reason. Sorry for not giving an explanation.


sniffie

Thank you for explaining #3. I was wondering about that and I am glad to see that it was just a simple mistake.

On #2, you are right that some things may be done behind-the-scenes. But it would be nice if that was noted in the thread. I realize that there was never a formal report filed (until this one), so I understand that maybe the mods saw no reason to "CLEAR" him.

But related to that and about #1, since we now have a C&A form filed, I would like to see what the actual ruling and reasoning is whether he is cleared or warned. As stated, it seems to me that he is as guilty of bigotry per the Game Chat Guidelines as the person who was actually warned. The only difference is that he didn't use a "bad" word and he may not have been in violation of the (separate issue of) Forum Guidelines bigotry.

This topic is all about GenerealRisk so this topic will show in time whether he will be cleared or warned.

sniffie

[TheGeneral2112]

Here is my first (quick) answer to your post.

The forum above has been locked without explanation. Since I was one of the regular commentators there and (1) others noted the bigotry displayed by GeneralRisk; (2) he does not appear to have been investigated or cleared for his comments in the game; and (3) I posted a question of whether he will be investigated or whether someone has to open a new C&A that was never answered, I can only assume that the locking of the thread is an indication that the mods want someone to file a separate C&A report here.

1: Whether GR maid himself guilty about Bigotry is discussed among the mods, he is cleared for that.
2: How can you be sure that he isn't investigated or cleared. Not everything the C&A mods do is public.
3: This is my personal (newbie) mistake, I closed to topic to prevent it to escalate,this is truly the only reason. Sorry for not giving an explanation.


sniffie

Thank you for explaining #3. I was wondering about that and I am glad to see that it was just a simple mistake.

On #2, you are right that some things may be done behind-the-scenes. But it would be nice if that was noted in the thread. I realize that there was never a formal report filed (until this one), so I understand that maybe the mods saw no reason to "CLEAR" him.

But related to that and about #1, since we now have a C&A form filed, I would like to see what the actual ruling and reasoning is whether he is cleared or warned. As stated, it seems to me that he is as guilty of bigotry per the Game Chat Guidelines as the person who was actually warned. The only difference is that he didn't use a "bad" word and he may not have been in violation of the (separate issue of) Forum Guidelines bigotry.

This topic is all about GenerealRisk so this topic will show in time whether he will be cleared or warned.

sniffie

He was already cleared...

[sniffie]

I meant on this topic.

sniffie

[agentcom]

Another lengthy post from me. Please try to only quote sections you are using to keep posts from getting too unwieldy.

Civility and FAMO

famo... there's nothing here.. grow some thicker skin

The best I can say right now is one and all Famo.

Oh and thank all of you for keeping this one civil

First off, I'd like to second the gratitude for the civil conversation here. I opened this thread with the intent to have a legitimate discussion and receive clarification on these rules from the Mods. I appreciate both that the moderators are taking the time to review this and all of you who have given opinions so far. Even the posts like rhp's above are important contributions. This thread is not just for me to hear everyone who agrees with me. However, those of you that feel this issue is a FAMO situation, I would like to hear why you think the conduct isn't outside of the posted (and quoted in the first post) rules of CC. If you have the time, feel free to elaborate as Jgordon1111 did. If not, I can appreciate the short and sweet FAMO post.

Bigotry Toward Nation of Origin and Economic Status

I would never expect to be allowed to call someone 'a 3rd world peice of shit' - i wouldn't say for instance pick a chinese person and call them 'a chinese peice of shit' either. Because OBVIOUSLY that would be racist and a bigoted thing to do.

If a mod would be willing to give a clear and concise reason for not even warning GR about his behaviour i would be astounded, i don't truly think it's possible.

I agree. I made a similar point in the previous (locked) thread:

Is it OK to be a bigot as long as your bigotry is based on geographical origin or on economic status rather than on race?

Can I call someone a "poor Asian f*ck" as long as I'm referring to the person's being from Asia and not referring to their race?

Does not matter that GR did not know what was said exactly the intent was there [Here, I believe Jgordon is talking about the insulting intent of Gaerapi’s initial post]. As I said before If calling someone third world is a crime, the entire media world needs to be notified that they are biased and bigots. Ah but you say gr said third world f**k, Its all context here. many times many games I have seen a player call another one a f**k, nothing is done about it, Why because it's legal by CC definition.

So the crux of this is GR said third world F**k. If you look at it you say bigot, Why? GR knew that gaerapi was from another country, thus the first part which by modern media standards is not bigoted at all,and then the F**k part which not against CC rules. Now you combine them and from a modern media perspective if they reffered to most of the worlds population as F**k's, it would not be bigoted at all.

Context is eminently important here. If I’m quoting a passage from Huck Finn to show the historic use of the term “nigger” or I am posting in this forum about why I think a particular use of that term is wrong, it is not bigotry. Bigotry is not about the words being used, it is about prejudice and intolerance. This is exactly why many people, including me, have a problem with decisions that appear to punish “bad words” rather than actual bigotry. If we are going to continue to punish bad words and not bigotry then the rules should be amended to “certain bigoted terms are not allowed” rather than no “form of bigotry” is allowed.

When the news reports on a “3rd world country” or “Mexico” it is an informational description of a place. When I refer to someone as a “3rd world f*ck” or a “dirty Mexican,” I am probably using the nation or economic status of the person as part of a prejudiced insult against people from a certain place. Again, context is important. In this case, from the context of the rest of the chat and forum posts, it is clear that GR has no problem expressing his prejudice toward people based on their national flag or their perceived economic status. It was also his first line of defense against me when he perceived that I had a better education and was therefore a “first world asshole.” And it was the basis of much of his comments against Gaerapi.

Retaliation

what the guy said in italian, if you translate it to something giving the same tone and flavour would sound something like this "you lucky ass clown"

che culo = what ass = how extremely lucky
buffone = jester in a very offensive way.

Thanks Betiko. I posted this here even though it came after Jgordon’s posts because it comes up here.

that first line and its intent determines the whole flavor of the chat. Isnt there a rule about only posting in game chat in a language everyone can understand. It shouldnt make a difference that it was 1 VS 1 gaerapi was clearly trying to get a rise out of GR.

Sidenote on language: I believe those rules are to prevent secret diplomacy and not applicable here.

So my statement stands,gaerapi was the first to post trying to bait GR,not the other way around as so many of the posters here have thought.
…
So its a fine line depending on your perspective whether it was bigoted or not. Retalitory for the first line, yes absolutley.Even as I said GR may not even have been sure of what was said. But he pretty well guessed gaerapi wasnt telling him Bon Chance,Buenos suerte, Etc.

But as to giving GR a pass because his remarks were retaliatory. In Game Chat CC does not allow “any form of bigotry” and flaming, trolling and baiting provisions (incorporated into the Game Chat Guidelines) specifically state that retaliation is NOT a defense to these claims:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7785#p1759438
Trolling and Baiting:

If someone is trolling or baiting, don't fall for it. The best way to irritate trolls and ultimately drive them away is to ignore them.

Flaming:

It doesn't matter if another user rubs you the wrong way, that's not an excuse to flame or personally attack them.

Rulings and Precedent

Second point, I have seen alot worse get passed by with nothing done about it. My thoughts heat of the moment, some things were said that have pushed the limits of what is and what is not defined in the rules.

If conduct falls outside of the rules, but is still allowed to happen, there is a problem. Either the rules need to get changed or clarified or the enforcement needs to be enhanced.

I ask that both get a Fair and unbiased ruling,based on past ruling or (non-rulings).

Exactly.

Intent and Troublemakers

GR joins this guy in a game to opening bait him into getting a warning or punishment. I believe he even admitted to it in the original C&A report. In doing this, he makes a bigoted statement himself and gets cleared.

This is the first sentence in the Rules section of CC:

Cheaters and troublemakers detract from the gaming experience of all Conquer Club players, and proactive measures are employed to protect our membership. Conquer Club reserves the right to suspend accounts and cancel Premium Memberships, with or without warning, of those players who are deemed to have violated the rules.

By opening joining a game and flaming against a person in the hopes of getting him a warning or ban, would that not be against this first statement?

What you are remembering is from GR’s original post and a subsequent post in the locked thread [edit: fixed quotes]:

Comments:I seen this Bigot got away with calling the American President Chocolate faced so I decided to see if he gets away with calling him a fucking niger

I certainly should get away with saying it , esp after this bigot just got away with trashing Americans and jews

It is unclear whether GR joined the game knowing Gaerapi’s history. He certainly knew about it by the time he made the post. He never responded to the allegation that he went into that game to bait the player. On the bigotry charges, it shouldn’t really matter whether he went into the game to provoke another player. For the other charges, it may bolster the case for findings under specific provisions that deal with harassment or causing chaos. But I think he clearly violated the flaming/baiting/trolling guidelines anyway with his conduct. If he intentionally joined the game to do that only strengthens that case.

Flaming & Baiting

So trying to say GR baited him is way off course and the bigotry part please see the above post for an explaination of how it is not intended bigotry.

One last note: trolling and baiting are covered under the same provision of the Guidelines. Since retaliation is not a defense, responding to baiting intending to get further rise out of the initial baiter is still baiting. Same would go for Flaming.

From the Trolling Specifics:

don't drive a topic into a negative spiral

[GeneralRisk]

Another lengthy post from me. Please try to only quote sections you are using to keep posts from getting too unwieldy.

Civility and FAMO

famo... there's nothing here.. grow some thicker skin

The best I can say right now is one and all Famo.

Oh and thank all of you for keeping this one civil

First off, I'd like to second the gratitude for the civil conversation here. I opened this thread with the intent to have a legitimate discussion and receive clarification on these rules from the Mods. I appreciate both that the moderators are taking the time to review this and all of you who have given opinions so far. Even the posts like rhp's above are important contributions. This thread is not just for me to hear everyone who agrees with me. However, those of you that feel this issue is a FAMO situation, I would like to hear why you think the conduct isn't outside of the posted (and quoted in the first post) rules of CC. If you have the time, feel free to elaborate as Jgordon1111 did. If not, I can appreciate the short and sweet FAMO post.

Bigotry Toward Nation of Origin and Economic Status

I would never expect to be allowed to call someone 'a 3rd world peice of shit' - i wouldn't say for instance pick a chinese person and call them 'a chinese peice of shit' either. Because OBVIOUSLY that would be racist and a bigoted thing to do.

If a mod would be willing to give a clear and concise reason for not even warning GR about his behaviour i would be astounded, i don't truly think it's possible.

I agree. I made a similar point in the previous (locked) thread:

Is it OK to be a bigot as long as your bigotry is based on geographical origin or on economic status rather than on race?

Can I call someone a "poor Asian f*ck" as long as I'm referring to the person's being from Asia and not referring to their race?

Does not matter that GR did not know what was said exactly the intent was there [Here, I believe Jgordon is talking about the insulting intent of Gaerapi’s initial post]. As I said before If calling someone third world is a crime, the entire media world needs to be notified that they are biased and bigots. Ah but you say gr said third world f**k, Its all context here. many times many games I have seen a player call another one a f**k, nothing is done about it, Why because it's legal by CC definition.

So the crux of this is GR said third world F**k. If you look at it you say bigot, Why? GR knew that gaerapi was from another country, thus the first part which by modern media standards is not bigoted at all,and then the F**k part which not against CC rules. Now you combine them and from a modern media perspective if they reffered to most of the worlds population as F**k's, it would not be bigoted at all.

Context is eminently important here. If I’m quoting a passage from Huck Finn to show the historic use of the term “nigger” or I am posting in this forum about why I think a particular use of that term is wrong, it is not bigotry. Bigotry is not about the words being used, it is about prejudice and intolerance. This is exactly why many people, including me, have a problem with decisions that appear to punish “bad words” rather than actual bigotry. If we are going to continue to punish bad words and not bigotry then the rules should be amended to “certain bigoted terms are not allowed” rather than no “form of bigotry” is allowed.

When the news reports on a “3rd world country” or “Mexico” it is an informational description of a place. When I refer to someone as a “3rd world f*ck” or a “dirty Mexican,” I am probably using the nation or economic status of the person as part of a prejudiced insult against people from a certain place. Again, context is important. In this case, from the context of the rest of the chat and forum posts, it is clear that GR has no problem expressing his prejudice toward people based on their national flag or their perceived economic status. It was also his first line of defense against me when he perceived that I had a better education and was therefore a “first world asshole.” And it was the basis of much of his comments against Gaerapi.

Retaliation

what the guy said in italian, if you translate it to something giving the same tone and flavour would sound something like this "you lucky ass clown"

che culo = what ass = how extremely lucky
buffone = jester in a very offensive way.

Thanks Betiko. I posted this here even though it came after Jgordon’s posts because it comes up here.

that first line and its intent determines the whole flavor of the chat. Isnt there a rule about only posting in game chat in a language everyone can understand. It shouldnt make a difference that it was 1 VS 1 gaerapi was clearly trying to get a rise out of GR.

Sidenote on language: I believe those rules are to prevent secret diplomacy and not applicable here.

So my statement stands,gaerapi was the first to post trying to bait GR,not the other way around as so many of the posters here have thought.
…
So its a fine line depending on your perspective whether it was bigoted or not. Retalitory for the first line, yes absolutley.Even as I said GR may not even have been sure of what was said. But he pretty well guessed gaerapi wasnt telling him Bon Chance,Buenos suerte, Etc.

But as to giving GR a pass because his remarks were retaliatory. In Game Chat CC does not allow “any form of bigotry” and flaming, trolling and baiting provisions (incorporated into the Game Chat Guidelines) specifically state that retaliation is NOT a defense to these claims:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7785#p1759438
Trolling and Baiting:

If someone is trolling or baiting, don't fall for it. The best way to irritate trolls and ultimately drive them away is to ignore them.

Flaming:

It doesn't matter if another user rubs you the wrong way, that's not an excuse to flame or personally attack them.

Rulings and Precedent

Second point, I have seen alot worse get passed by with nothing done about it. My thoughts heat of the moment, some things were said that have pushed the limits of what is and what is not defined in the rules.

If conduct falls outside of the rules, but is still allowed to happen, there is a problem. Either the rules need to get changed or clarified or the enforcement needs to be enhanced.

I ask that both get a Fair and unbiased ruling,based on past ruling or (non-rulings).

Exactly.

Intent and Troublemakers

GR joins this guy in a game to opening bait him into getting a warning or punishment. I believe he even admitted to it in the original C&A report. In doing this, he makes a bigoted statement himself and gets cleared.

This is the first sentence in the Rules section of CC:

Cheaters and troublemakers detract from the gaming experience of all Conquer Club players, and proactive measures are employed to protect our membership. Conquer Club reserves the right to suspend accounts and cancel Premium Memberships, with or without warning, of those players who are deemed to have violated the rules.

By opening joining a game and flaming against a person in the hopes of getting him a warning or ban, would that not be against this first statement?

What you are remembering is from GR’s original post and a subsequent post in the locked thread:
[quote=”GeneralRisk”]Comments:I seen this Bigot got away with calling the American President Chocolate faced so I decided to see if he gets away with calling him a fucking niger

[quote=”GeneralRisk”]I certainly should get away with saying it , esp after this bigot just got away with trashing Americans and jews[/quote]
It is unclear whether GR joined the game knowing Gaerapi’s history. He certainly knew about it by the time he made the post. He never responded to the allegation that he went into that game to bait the player. On the bigotry charges, it shouldn’t really matter whether he went into the game to provoke another player. For the other charges, it may bolster the case for findings under specific provisions that deal with harassment or causing chaos. But I think he clearly violated the flaming/baiting/trolling guidelines anyway with his conduct. If he intentionally joined the game to do that only strengthens that case.

Flaming & Baiting

So trying to say GR baited him is way off course and the bigotry part please see the above post for an explaination of how it is not intended bigotry.

One last note: trolling and baiting are covered under the same provision of the Guidelines. Since retaliation is not a defense, responding to baiting intending to get further rise out of the initial baiter is still baiting. Same would go for Flaming.

From the Trolling Specifics:

don't drive a topic into a negative spiral

[/quote]You must have a abundance of free time on your hands. Is this the slow season at the used car lot?

[eddie2]

hum first sentence was in italian...... well i am not one to say but i thought there was a rule stating all game chat must be in english ??????

[jgordon1111]

Good post Agent, But I am not saying retalitory baiting,trolling or flaming ia a defense for anyone. What I meant is,that it seems that GR responded to an intentional bait from gaerapi. I see no evedince that GR went into the game to intentionally bait gaerapi,ergo he did not with predetermination make any statements that were bigoted.

As to the third world country issue, I mention the media using the term and it is not in the context of an endearing big brother. Even our current and past presidents frequently use the term, people of all races, creeds, and nationalities use the term. Just the added F**K is what seems to make everyone view it is as bigoted. Players call each other F**Ks in game chat all the time, GR simply identified gaerapi as a third world F**K,seperatley this would have been a non issue,but he strung it together and it is causing a considerable stir.

As to calling you a first world asshole,context again, was it bigoted, only if you are looking for bigotry in a specific context and viewpoint.

The people who use the N word are being specific, because there is no context that is acceptable,not in the media,not on the street,not in the forums,not in game chat.

I do not equate The N Word, with third world, the conotations are so far apart as to not compare, Bye the Bye I dont believe Germany or Italy are considered third world by other nations, which comes back to context. gaerapi spoke in Italian,but GR thought he was German maybe, So in reality the supposed bigotry doesnt exsist by extension of correctness of the statements.

Speaking a language that all do not understand is not clearly defined to just prevent secret diplomacy,that is its main funtion,but as this case shows, a good reason that it applies to all game chats.

Yes a possible clarification on some of the current rules on bigotry is in order. Some things are being allowed and others are not depending on viewpoints. Its time to take viewpoints out of the equation. Clear and desicive instructions would be best,no longer using guidelines or viewpoints.

[Lindax]

hum first sentence was in italian...... well i am not one to say but i thought there was a rule stating all game chat must be in english ??????

From the Game Chat Guidelines:

"All diplomatic discussions MUST take place within the Game Chat in English or a language all players can understand. This includes proposing alliances and discussing the strategies of those alliances."

Lx