simmons4/tec805/davsweeney/smegal69[noted/warned]

[Criticalwinner]

As a player who was referenced in the OP's game examples, I can attest to the craziness spawned by this "team".

[pearljamrox2]

Could still coordinate with their team, but how about team that joins last can't go first?

LOL!!! How is that any better? Then they wouldn't have to wait to join to go first. They would go first by default because they are team one.

I don't play freestyle usually, actually pretty much never. I think it is unfair that if team 1 is forced to join up, team 2 has the total advantage of joining whenever they want. I don't know why any team would ever want to be team 1. Why make a game when team 2 has total advantage of knowing when the game starts, and there is nothing team 1 can do about it. That is what seems most unfair to me.

One of the first games I played was Freestyle. I didn't know it until I joined it, and I learned a very important lesson that day. Make sure to check, before you join the game, that it says sequential. I was a noob and got destroyed and learned that freestyle is evil (except for battle royals, it's perfect for those).

Noobs who are joining team freestyle games with random teammates are using bad judgement. They are not being invited to the games, they are joining on their own. They really should not join those games, because frankly...they have no chance anyway.

So to summarize, Momma said freestyle is tha devil.

Maybe the best way, the fair way, would be to have freestyle games start like Manual games. Instead of having 12 hours to deploy your troops, having 12 hours after the game is initialized before turns can begin.

[TheGeneral2112]

The solution is simple, get rid of freestyle games. The concept of a freestyle game is stupid, and shortsighted. They allow a person to have TWO turns before you even go, and that can be devastating. Also you might have a set worth 70 men, but need to go to bed or work, when all you need to do is wait for someone to begin turn for you to go. Due to real life things though you are forced to log off, and then someone begins turn uses their set and wipes you out. You shouldnt lose a game simply cause you had to go to work. Get rid of freestyle games. They only cater to point hogs, and cheaters. ALL games should be sequential. PERIOD.

I like this suggestion. It seems like a large portion of the harvesting/ranching/farming problems involve freestyle play. Just get rid of it.
I large part of the problem is then solved.

Yes. I have a better idea. lets shut the whole cc down. And lets sue the mods as well. What do you think

+1

[jghost7]

Could still coordinate with their team, but how about team that joins last can't go first?

LOL!!! How is that any better? Then they wouldn't have to wait to join to go first. They would go first by default because they are team one.

I don't play freestyle usually, actually pretty much never. I think it is unfair that if team 1 is forced to join up, team 2 has the total advantage of joining whenever they want. I don't know why any team would ever want to be team 1. Why make a game when team 2 has total advantage of knowing when the game starts, and there is nothing team 1 can do about it. That is what seems most unfair to me.

One of the first games I played was Freestyle. I didn't know it until I joined it, and I learned a very important lesson that day. Make sure to check, before you join the game, that it says sequential. I was a noob and got destroyed and learned that freestyle is evil (except for battle royals, it's perfect for those).

Noobs who are joining team freestyle games with random teammates are using bad judgement. They are not being invited to the games, they are joining on their own. They really should not join those games, because frankly...they have no chance anyway.

So to summarize, Momma said freestyle is tha devil.

Maybe the best way, the fair way, would be to have freestyle games start like Manual games. Instead of having 12 hours to deploy your troops, having 12 hours after the game is initialized before turns can begin.

+1

[jimboy]

The part that makes this funny to me is that Tec805 completely lost it on me for giving him so 1 star ratings saying that his ratings are the most important to him. It appears as though ranching for medals and points may also be important. At least he is able to appologize for the cheap tactics though, what a nice guy......

Also wanted to comment on the start times of a freestyle game. What is the game started RANDOMLY sometime in the first 12 hours after it was completely filled? This would make freestyle a far less attractive option for freestylers looking to win games in this matter.

[Kaskavel]

Isn't it obvious enough that freestyle, non-speed, unlimited fort, team games is a seriously problematic set-up? You dont need to blame freestyle, specify the game options that are used for farming and block them.
The simplest one is to block the freestyle 2-team games, at least at nonspeed games. Freestyle was invented to allow individual players to vary their timing in taking turns, not to offer this option to a whole four-membered team.

[jghost7]

...Also wanted to comment on the start times of a freestyle game. What is the game started RANDOMLY sometime in the first 12 hours after it was completely filled? This would make freestyle a far less attractive option for freestylers looking to win games in this matter.

This would be an interesting option....I think randomly in the first 24 hours would be really interesting.

Isn't it obvious enough that freestyle, non-speed, unlimited fort, team games is a seriously problematic set-up? You dont need to blame freestyle, specify the game options that are used for farming and block them.
The simplest one is to block the freestyle 2-team games, at least at nonspeed games. Freestyle was invented to allow individual players to vary their timing in taking turns, not to offer this option to a whole four-membered team.

Good point.

[tec805]

I don't know why any team would ever want to be team 1. Why make a game when team 2 has total advantage of knowing when the game starts, and there is nothing team 1 can do about it.

Because they can have a dozen games waiting for noobs to join knowing the map is too complicated or that they won't work as a team or there is an objective that team 2 could never accomplish. Do a search for freestyle games waiting to see what I'm talking about.

Maybe the best way, the fair way, would be to have freestyle games start like Manual games. Instead of having 12 hours to deploy your troops, having 12 hours after the game is initialized before turns can begin.

Coordinated teams would still get the jump, even more so with the above mentioned. Putting a clock on the start would also leave people unable to see the start of the game at 3am that they joined at 3pm.

The part that makes this funny to me is that Tec805 completely lost it on me for giving him so 1 star ratings saying that his ratings are the most important to him. It appears as though ranching for medals and points may also be important. At least he is able to appologize for the cheap tactics though, what a nice guy......

We knew we would take a hit on ratings, figured I'd try explaining we were medal hunting and it was nothing personal. I earned the cheap tactics mark from them - you rated me out of spite for losing and deserved the shit you were given.

Also wanted to comment on the start times of a freestyle game. What is the game started RANDOMLY sometime in the first 12 hours after it was completely filled? This would make freestyle a far less attractive option for freestylers looking to win games in this matter.

Random seems a little closer to fair, but 12 hours still screws people. Teams will still be on top of the game more than random players.

[jimboy]

We knew we would take a hit on ratings

Interesting. If your tactics weren't an abuse of the game then why would you feel as though your ratings were going to take a hit?

Also wanted to comment on the start times of a freestyle game. What is the game started RANDOMLY sometime in the first 12 hours after it was completely filled? This would make freestyle a far less attractive option for freestylers looking to win games in this matter.

Random seems a little closer to fair, but 12 hours still screws people. Teams will still be on top of the game more than random players.

Explain to me how this would screw people other than players that are trying to pull the same shit that you guys are pulling. Do you have a problem with this idea because you could potentially have to wait online for 12 hours to ensure that you get the first turn?



This is the Cheating & ABUSE forum. Whether you want to argue whether or not you broke the rules or not is one thing but this is clearly an ABUSE of the game and how it was designed to be played. It is my opinion that this action should be punished

[Sniper08]

We knew we would take a hit on ratings

Interesting. If your tactics weren't an abuse of the game then why would you feel as though your ratings were going to take a hit?

Also wanted to comment on the start times of a freestyle game. What is the game started RANDOMLY sometime in the first 12 hours after it was completely filled? This would make freestyle a far less attractive option for freestylers looking to win games in this matter.

Random seems a little closer to fair, but 12 hours still screws people. Teams will still be on top of the game more than random players.

Explain to me how this would screw people other than players that are trying to pull the same shit that you guys are pulling. Do you have a problem with this idea because you could potentially have to wait online for 12 hours to ensure that you get the first turn?



This is the Cheating & ABUSE forum. Whether you want to argue whether or not you broke the rules or not is one thing but this is clearly an ABUSE of the game and how it was designed to be played. It is my opinion that this action should be punished

Jimboy you are completly ignoring parts of Tecs posts that answer those "questions" that you asked so quit trying to bait tec into a response that he has already given.

The part that makes this funny to me is that Tec805 completely lost it on me for giving him so 1 star ratings saying that his ratings are the most important to him. It appears as though ranching for medals and points may also be important. At least he is able to appologize for the cheap tactics though, what a nice guy......

We knew we would take a hit on ratings, figured I'd try explaining we were medal hunting and it was nothing personal. I earned the cheap tactics mark from them - you rated me out of spite for losing and deserved the shit you were given.

What the team were doing is using cheap tactics but it is up to the C&A mods to decide if it was abuse.

Maybe the best way, the fair way, would be to have freestyle games start like Manual games. Instead of having 12 hours to deploy your troops, having 12 hours after the game is initialized before turns can begin.

Coordinated teams would still get the jump, even more so with the above mentioned. Putting a clock on the start would also leave people unable to see the start of the game at 3am that they joined at 3pm.

12 hours seems excessive to wait for freestyle to start, an hour countdown after the game has been started before someone took their turn would be a lot better.

[DrewbieDoo]

Troll in the dungeon! Troll in the dungeon!

[lynch5762]

Isn't it obvious enough that freestyle, non-speed, unlimited fort, team games is a seriously problematic set-up? You dont need to blame freestyle, specify the game options that are used for farming and block them.
The simplest one is to block the freestyle 2-team games, at least at nonspeed games. Freestyle was invented to allow individual players to vary their timing in taking turns, not to offer this option to a whole four-membered team.

There are a broad range of views in this thread but this one sticks out to me as the best. The guys accused here were taking advantage of a system and they have admitted doing so. If they are warned or punished I am sure that they will take their medicine and stop using the practice. I am in the same clan and play a lot of games with these guys and to be honest I think they were just having fun because they all spend a great deal of time on line and probably got a bit carried away with it.

Back to the quote.... It seems to me that team freestyle (casual games) will result in this type of situation more times than not. I have played a few of them but it doesn't take long to realize that the only outcome is a huge advantage to the team that is online at the same time and is ready when the game starts. For this reason I think that most of the good "freestyle teams" only play on speed and I am sure it is a rush and a great test of skill.

I am not sure if it is simple or not to limit team freestyle to only speed games but i disagree with some that freestyle in general is bad. Some people enjoy the heck out of it. I for one suck at it but I still try every once in a while and I am in some multi-player casual freestyle games right now.

I am not sure if Kaskavel's idea can be implemented but it does seem a lot easier to me than having to keep a watchful eye out to see if people are abusing the system. I am not condoning it but lets make sure that we ALL agree on one thing-----

These guys are by far not the first players to use this method by any stretch of the imagination and they will not be the last if nothing is set in place to either change the system or set a written rule on the subject..... Just my thoughts

[alster]

Jebus. As to "making sure" to go first: I fail to see how using the way the game engine works to gain an advantage could possibly be an abuse. It's simply part of the game, if you don't like freestyle, don't play freestyle. It really is that simple.

[lokisgal]

speaking of baiting - arent you responding to Jimboy because of a rating he made?

keep on topic here and quit trying to up the ante in here

We knew we would take a hit on ratings

Interesting. If your tactics weren't an abuse of the game then why would you feel as though your ratings were going to take a hit?

Also wanted to comment on the start times of a freestyle game. What is the game started RANDOMLY sometime in the first 12 hours after it was completely filled? This would make freestyle a far less attractive option for freestylers looking to win games in this matter.

Random seems a little closer to fair, but 12 hours still screws people. Teams will still be on top of the game more than random players.

Explain to me how this would screw people other than players that are trying to pull the same shit that you guys are pulling. Do you have a problem with this idea because you could potentially have to wait online for 12 hours to ensure that you get the first turn?



This is the Cheating & ABUSE forum. Whether you want to argue whether or not you broke the rules or not is one thing but this is clearly an ABUSE of the game and how it was designed to be played. It is my opinion that this action should be punished

Jimboy you are completly ignoring parts of Tecs posts that answer those "questions" that you asked so quit trying to bait tec into a response that he has already given.

The part that makes this funny to me is that Tec805 completely lost it on me for giving him so 1 star ratings saying that his ratings are the most important to him. It appears as though ranching for medals and points may also be important. At least he is able to appologize for the cheap tactics though, what a nice guy......

We knew we would take a hit on ratings, figured I'd try explaining we were medal hunting and it was nothing personal. I earned the cheap tactics mark from them - you rated me out of spite for losing and deserved the shit you were given.

What the team were doing is using cheap tactics but it is up to the C&A mods to decide if it was abuse.

Maybe the best way, the fair way, would be to have freestyle games start like Manual games. Instead of having 12 hours to deploy your troops, having 12 hours after the game is initialized before turns can begin.

Coordinated teams would still get the jump, even more so with the above mentioned. Putting a clock on the start would also leave people unable to see the start of the game at 3am that they joined at 3pm.

12 hours seems excessive to wait for freestyle to start, an hour countdown after the game has been started before someone took their turn would be a lot better.

[Crazyirishman]

This just seems like a different strokes for different folks type thing for me. CC points dont translate well into the real world, so why have we assigned this pseudo-integrity to to how people have their fun. Do I agree with what these players are doing? no, but one shouldn't hate the players one should hate the game. If what chuck claims is true, then maybe one could tweak the invite system so that if this can't take place anymore, maybe put some type of restriction on how many times a player can be invited if these games are taking 11 days to fill.

[VampireM]

best way to describe this ^^

Rabble Rabble Rabble The Pack Rabble Rabble

[TheGeneral2112]

I'm just going to go ahead and weigh in on this again. I have played with all of the accused within the last week. They meet on skype and discuss turns for some time before even beginning the game. They wait to take a turn until everyone is online. They coordinate and strategize. They play as a team. If playing as a good team isn't allowed on CC, then what are dubs/trips/quads for? If you punish them for being the last to join as Team 1, then they will join as team 2 all at once and take their turn together. What you are really mad about is that they play as a team should play and are rewarded with points for their strategy. Let's be honest, their win isn't just about the first turn. It is about ALL turns being made together and the fact that they function as a well oiled team. C&A mods, I hope you make the right decision here.

[Chariot of Fire]

I don't think the argument was against the fact they play as a team. It's perfectly logical in a freestyle team game to all be active at the same time and to not do so would actually be considered foolish. So in terms of them playing the game 'as it was intended' then they are doing just that.

What I believe to be the problem, or the gist of the argument, is the use of the invite system. If a game has been set-up for 11 days and has been waiting for a second team to join, the mechanics of how to 'play the system' is for one player on Team 1 to simply let the invite expire (which it does after 24 hours) and then get reinvited. That way he's always able to join the game last when his team mates are also online. It's simply a question of whether it's ethical to perpetually decline an invite in this manner. You know you have to join the game, so why not join upon first invite? Answer...because you lose the advantage that you would gain from being the first team to play.

I can't level blame at these guys for doing what they do (not that I'd ever do it myself) but this report does serve to highlight an inherent problem with freestyle team games and a need to alter the manner in which they commence.

[alster]

What I believe to be the problem, or the gist of the argument, is the use of the invite system. If a game has been set-up for 11 days and has been waiting for a second team to join, the mechanics of how to 'play the system' is for one player on Team 1 to simply let the invite expire (which it does after 24 hours) and then get reinvited. That way he's always able to join the game last when his team mates are also online. It's simply a question of whether it's ethical to perpetually decline an invite in this manner. You know you have to join the game, so why not join upon first invite? Answer...because you lose the advantage that you would gain from being the first team to play.

I can't level blame at these guys for doing what they do (not that I'd ever do it myself) but this report does serve to highlight an inherent problem with freestyle team games and a need to alter the manner in which they commence.

I don't really see a problem (ethical or otherwise) with that. Everyone considering joining as team 2 can see that an invite is outstanding (and who can be expected to join the game) and can draw the conclusion that if joining, they will meet an experienced team that will have the advantage to go first. No one forces team 2 to join, it is a voluntary decision to do so - so don't understand why people not making this decision consider that a problem.

And yeah, sure, there have of course been people signing up for games who has no clue about what to expect. But the rules are not meant to protect stupidity and laziness (all the info is out there for everyone to read if wishing to make a well informed decision to join these games). Every experienced player on the site has made stupid and ill informed decisions during their CC career, but that's part of the learning curve and not something that best are handled with rules.

[jghost7]

...I can't level blame at these guys for doing what they do (not that I'd ever do it myself) but this report does serve to highlight an inherent problem with freestyle team games and a need to alter the manner in which they commence.

But that is exactly what this report does. It levels accusations and blame at the accused and attempts to set a precedent for future C&A claims.

It would seem that the general opinion of a large chunk of CC players seem to think that blame and accusations need to occur before any substantial change happens. Instead of taking this issue up to suggestions( as there have been a few good ones) to get this fixed, some people felt it was necessary to try and file a C&A report on someone and hope that they set a precedent with a guilty verdict. It is a sad thing for people to think that this is the only way to get change.

Since this issue has been discussed, I don't believe that there has been one attempt to let the suggestions forum have a go at it. Nor have I heard any other valid form of change be attempted. The subject was brought up in GD, then someone said, 'What the heck, I'll go ahead and make the report...' , and then here we go. I guess that is how much faith we have in the suggestions forum.

Thanks,

J

[Chariot of Fire]

...I can't level blame at these guys for doing what they do (not that I'd ever do it myself) but this report does serve to highlight an inherent problem with freestyle team games and a need to alter the manner in which they commence.

But that is exactly what this report does. It levels accusations and blame at the accused and attempts to set a precedent for future C&A claims.

It would seem that the general opinion of a large chunk of CC players seem to think that blame and accusations need to occur before any substantial change happens. Instead of taking this issue up to suggestions( as there have been a few good ones) to get this fixed, some people felt it was necessary to try and file a C&A report on someone and hope that they set a precedent with a guilty verdict. It is a sad thing for people to think that this is the only way to get change.

Since this issue has been discussed, I don't believe that there has been one attempt to let the suggestions forum have a go at it. Nor have I heard any other valid form of change be attempted. The subject was brought up in GD, then someone said, 'What the heck, I'll go ahead and make the report...' , and then here we go. I guess that is how much faith we have in the suggestions forum.

Thanks,

J

Whilst I may not level blame, I would still issue a warning. Nothing wrong with warnings - they suggest that whilst what has passed may be within the rules, any continuation of this practice would be deemed 'abuse'. Everyone walks away, a lesson was learned by everyone on the site, the scoreboard retains some integrity, and the systematic farming of inexperienced teams on freestyle settings becomes a thing of the past. Personally I can't see a problem with this scenario.

[IR1SH ACE]

been following this for a bit now and felt I might as well put in my thoughts on this one....

of course the only way to play a freestyle trips/quads game is to make sure your team goes first and it does not take long for most players to figure this out...when it first dawned on me I thought wow this would be a great (legit) way to make some easy points...

so I began to check everyday for freestyle trips/quads games that were waiting for team 2 to join and after a week/two I realized that there were already a load of freestyle "sharks" that were doing the same thing as me and if a trips/quads game those appear in the game finder with a complete team 1 it is jumped on within minutes of going up...(many a time I would see the guys mentioned in this C&A case had beaten me to the game)

the thing is that most players who set-up these freestyle trips/quads games for the first time expecting some bunch of noobs to join the other side soon learn a valuable lesson and rarely make the same mistake twice....so these kinds of games appearing in the search are like Gold dust

So the next logical step is to start setting up your own trips/quads games but you know you cant hand the advantage to team 2.........so what do you do????

I do believe it is a cheap tactic to hold off joining till team 2 has joined but like most of the comments here I think this should be put into the suggestions rather than what looks like a C&A case that was started as a way at taking some shots at "THE PACK"

I would love if they implemented a random start into these freestyle trips/quads games, once everyone joined the game would start anytime within the next 24 hours....this would be a great way to fix's this problem, either that or nobody will be playing freestyle trips/quads games outside of speed games..

to be perfectly honest, probably because you do somehow have a point chuuck. I played like 5 or 6 games of those, I know they were not fair for team 2. I've been in many cc game ambushes, and I just wanted to advance my medal i played a few of those out of many other game modes.
I think we all know it's not completely fair, and that it's a technique commonly used. Maybe a few pack guys played a bit too much of these in the past days.
But don't worry, they are all more than legit top tier brigs (even if codeblue might not agree, but I think that our clan wars result prove we are not that mediocre). maybe they did get a bit gready to reach their first star.
I just think we all got the point and won't do it again that's why all games have been dropped.
Apologies to the CC comunity that might have been bothered by this, won't happen again, but I do think this incident showed that a change must be made in team freestyle games and the way they are initialized because starting first is a great advantage.
And I one of the guys that really thinks freestyle should be treated as a different game with a different scoreboard.

cheers.

big respect here for betiko for openly admitting that although there is no rule that says you cant do what they are been accused of here he and Im sure the rest of the accused can see why morally what they are doing is kind of cheap and maybe a "bit" abuse of game/invite and that they will not continue with this practice...

Im sure this will be cleared and they could all chose to keep playing this way but these guys clearly care about there rep and respect from the rest of the CC community and rather then post nonsensical argument with stupid analogy's about been 1 mile under the speed limit and other such drivel, they have admitted that it was wrong and will not force the OP and the other "detractors" to have to spend the next 3 years bringing up new case's.....

anyway to finish....case [cleared]....run it over to the suggestions and maybe we can have this fixed within 2 years and all will be good....also I wish you guys (PACK haters) would stop getting all bent out of shape over these "PACK" guys, it makes me laugh how much they seem to be able to push some Clan members buttons...

Cheers Ace

[Chariot of Fire]

Who are the Pack haters (plural)? Hope you don't think I'm one. I don't know most of their members, but those I do are stand-up people who I like and admire. I dislike cheap tactics and couldn't give a hoot which clan someone belongs to. I'd report someone from my own clan if I felt I had to (though it would never come to that as I'd let him resign or boot him first). I sure as heck wouldn't have anyone in TOFU play the system. Honour before medals.

[jghost7]

...I can't level blame at these guys for doing what they do (not that I'd ever do it myself) but this report does serve to highlight an inherent problem with freestyle team games and a need to alter the manner in which they commence.

But that is exactly what this report does. It levels accusations and blame at the accused and attempts to set a precedent for future C&A claims.

It would seem that the general opinion of a large chunk of CC players seem to think that blame and accusations need to occur before any substantial change happens. Instead of taking this issue up to suggestions( as there have been a few good ones) to get this fixed, some people felt it was necessary to try and file a C&A report on someone and hope that they set a precedent with a guilty verdict. It is a sad thing for people to think that this is the only way to get change.

Since this issue has been discussed, I don't believe that there has been one attempt to let the suggestions forum have a go at it. Nor have I heard any other valid form of change be attempted. The subject was brought up in GD, then someone said, 'What the heck, I'll go ahead and make the report...' , and then here we go. I guess that is how much faith we have in the suggestions forum.

Thanks,

J

Whilst I may not level blame, I would still issue a warning. Nothing wrong with warnings - they suggest that whilst what has passed may be within the rules, any continuation of this practice would be deemed 'abuse'. Everyone walks away, a lesson was learned by everyone on the site, the scoreboard retains some integrity, and the systematic farming of inexperienced teams on freestyle settings becomes a thing of the past. Personally I can't see a problem with this scenario.

I don't know about that. An official warning suggests that a rule was actually broken and is counted against you in the escalation scale. I think a statement of admins position would be enough along with them looking into solutions for this issue. I don't think that we should have to rely on accusations of abuse to fix the issue. At the worst, it perhaps may be noted, and a more permanent solution sought after.

IMO, the term ' Abuse of the Invite System' is pretty ridiculous and to say if I don't accept an invite, I can't be reinvited is kind of shady in itself. I can also see how it can be seen as kind of shady(Because of the nature of Freestyle, team, casual). So, in this instance, I think it would be best to fix the bigger issue here and that will allow for us to prevent a lot of unnecessary work and judgement calls for the C&A team in the future.

Thanks,

J

[therev1957]

J[/quote]

Whilst I may not level blame, I would still issue a warning. Nothing wrong with warnings - they suggest that whilst what has passed may be within the rules, any continuation of this practice would be deemed 'abuse'. Everyone walks away, a lesson was learned by everyone on the site, the scoreboard retains some integrity, and the systematic farming of inexperienced teams on freestyle settings becomes a thing of the past. Personally I can't see a problem with this scenario.[/quote]

I usually don't comment in these forums...but as I play with these guys regularly in clan and out of clan, I thought I would put my 2 cents (pesos?) in.

I hate freestyle!! and only played it to get my medals (yes I love medals)...I still play a few, but mostly because of the map and singles...and they are maps that the first turns aren't going to make the difference.

Personally I would not issue a warning...why warn someone "whilst what has passed may be within the rules" If they are within the rules they should not be warned...If they are not in the rules warn them...If they are abusing within the rules...CHANGE THE RULES!!!