simmons4/tec805/davsweeney/smegal69[noted/warned]

[Chuuuuck]

Accused:

simmons4
tec805
davsweeney
smegal69



The accused are suspected of:

Other: Abuse of the invitation system to gain an unfair advantage in the game

Screen shot taken Thursday, March 29, 2012 at approximately 9 am CST

Click image to enlarge.

Screen shot taken Thursday, March 29, 2012 at approximately 9 am CST

Click image to enlarge.

Game 10799480 This is a time stamp game. This speed game is the very next game number after the first game on their waiting list in the first screen shot. As you can see from the log, this speed game was played on March 18, 2012. Therefore, this team has been abusing the invite system for 11 days, waiting for an unsuspecting set of low ranked players to join behind them. It appears from the snapshot they finally got their wish, I would bet this game starts pretty soon, I can't wait to see how well team 2 does!

Other: Ranching unsuspecting players.
Getting them to join games that appear fun, but in reality, continuously locking players with no experience into a game that is impossible for them to win after their abuse of the invitation system.

The list is long. Here is a few examples:

Game 10845705 - 2 players eliminated on first turn before other team plays. Favorite quote: "tec805: sorry about the quick game," I am curious as to what exactly he is sorry for.

Game 10840250 - 1 player eliminated on first turn before other team plays. Uses same quote.

Game 10800028 - 2 players eliminated on first turn before other team plays. Same quote.

Game 10792116 - 2 player eliminated on first turn before other team plays.

Nearly all of their games are on small maps with unlimited forts. They use invite system to guarantee they get first turn, all log on, fort one another and eliminate an unsuspecting opponent before the "game" is ever actually played. This is straight abuse, they aren't even playing against anyone.

The biggest fact that makes this ranching IMO, is the accusations from good freestyle players that have received PMs from this group when they join one of their games. The PM paraphrased said "we are dropping the game because we wanted to wait for lower ranks to join it so we can beat them." This PM shows their intent to ranch. They aren't truly "public" games. They are abusing the invite system to keep a game up as long as they want on their terms, then only playing the games that have unsuspecting opponents that stand no chance to win.

I believe we could get people that have received such PMs to post and confirm in this thread.

Other: Account sitting abuse.
Every single game that starts, all of the players log in at the exact same time and play their first turn.

You can see from the games shown above, and even more so in the whole list of games they have done this, many times two of the players start taking their turn and forting troops around, then the third logs in a few minutes later and does everything he needs to, then it goes back to the other players acting if they need to. I think it is pretty obvious they have a standard that 2 of them need to be online for them to take the turn. They just play it for the 3rd. At the very least, I would bet my lunch money they are loosely sharing their accounts and passwords which was previously outlined as against the rules.

Obviously this last part is a tougher one to prove. But I think if you all checked their logins with the tools you have available. You will see they are switching accounts at the time they take their turns.

Some games where you can check their most recent turns (and times they logged in) are here:

Game 10799488
Game 10813564

All of the games listed above are fairly recent as well. Could be checked to see their log in behavior.

Comments:

It is utterly ridiculous that the scoreboard on this site has become nothing more than a tool to show who can manipulate the system the best to ranch and/or farm people to get the most guaranteed win. I acknowledge to move up the point system you have to have good point control and play positive expectation games. But you should have to be able to beat people relative to your rank to have a chance to move up. Not just continuously take 100% win ratios against people that you know don't stand a snowball chance in hell of beating you.

Please put a stop to all of this kind of behavior.

[jefjef]

It is also worthwhile to see if each one of them are taking their own turns or if there is one or two strategically sitting to ensure turn continuity. Yes it does happen.. Yes people do that stuff.. Particularly in free style quad games.

[Knight2254]

This makes me vomit a bit in my mouth.

[L M S]

This particular case, with all its details, looks pretty bad for the accused.

HOWEVER.

I don't believe the underlying premise of waiting to join your freestyle games last should be labeled abuse. It can't be. Its the right way to play the setting.

[jghost7]

This particular case, with all its details, looks pretty bad for the accused.

HOWEVER.

I don't believe the underlying premise of waiting to join your freestyle games last should be labeled abuse. It can't be. Its the right way to play the setting.

I agree.

[tec805]

Shoot those damn freestyle farmers.

Hey, wait a second...

The biggest fact that makes this ranching IMO, is the accusations from good freestyle players that have received PMs from this group when they join one of their games. The PM paraphrased said "we are dropping the game because we wanted to wait for lower ranks to join it so we can beat them." This PM shows their intent to ranch. They aren't truly "public" games.

We LOVE playing good players. WE have joined other freestyle ranchers games to see if we can beat them on their own map (and we have). ljex and some of his friends joined our game and did the exact same thing as us, sit on an invite and wait to join last. The game was going no place, simmons sent a PM. I'm sure ljex can dig it up and paste it here so there is no mis-paraphrasing. There is no game we have ever dropped because we were scared of good players. I'd be very interested to see these "accusations" you mention.

And of course I was sorry for the quick game. Who likes to join a game and get killed before they take a turn? Just because we are doing it to get kills for medals doesn't mean I think it's a nice way to play. We figured it was just a matter of time until someone got pissy about it.

We are in a clan, we are on Skype and we are on the computer quite a bit. We coordinate, strategize and play our games the same whether we are in a war or bogrolling or anything else.

So ranching is cool as long as you pick a complicated map, or something with an objective, so going first isn't so important? Setup a dozen games and wait for noobs to join is the accepted method, gotcha! If making sure taking your turn first in freestyle is abusive then give the warnings and change the system.

[Gunn217]

Just because we are doing it to get kills for medals doesn't mean I think it's a nice way to play.

Then why do it?

[Master Fenrir]

Just because we are doing it to get kills for medals doesn't mean I think it's a nice way to play.

Then why do it?

Chicks dig medals, bro.

[tec805]

Just because we are doing it to get kills for medals doesn't mean I think it's a nice way to play.

Then why do it?

Chicks dig medals, bro.

Damn, thought I was doing it to impress all the dudes on CC

[cookie0117]

If they are inviting people to the games then it's an abuse of the invite system. As the other team do not stand a chance. Also if they are abusing the account sitting to gain an advantage, this should be punished harshly.

As for holding off joining untill the other players are in, I don't think that's abuse. If definately not an even match but abuse is a strong term for it. I also think classing this as abuse weakens the term for use against real abuse.

[MoB Deadly]

If they arent inviting their opponents directly into the game I don't think its abuse. The opponents can read its a freestyle game and know what they are getting themselves into.

But using the invite system to hold that game in place so its starts when they are online to go first. I can see how that could be abuse. Thats a pretty clear advantage. Similar to missing the manual deployment phase in city mogul to go first.

[aad0906]

The opponents can read its a freestyle game and know what they are getting themselves into.

That is the problem... they don't. Sure, they realize it is freestyle but they don't realize that they are getting into a game where their opponents are timing the start of the game and before you realize the game has started, you have already lost (very easy with unlimited forts if all 4 players are online at the exact time the game starts). Yesterday just for the heck of it I contacted a player who was in the game waiting to start and gave him the link to the other thread where this practice was discussed. This player immediately dropped the game and thanked me for saving him points. Maybe there should be a cool down period, that casual freestyle trip/quad games only start x hours after the 6th or 8th player has joined. If then team 2 is not online and team 1 destroys them, well, at least they had a chance.

[jghost7]

If they arent inviting their opponents directly into the game I don't think its abuse. The opponents can read its a freestyle game and know what they are getting themselves into.

But using the invite system to hold that game in place so its starts when they are online to go first. I can see how that could be abuse. Thats a pretty clear advantage. Similar to missing the manual deployment phase in city mogul to go first.

Both mentioned are GameType issues. Both can be solved with fixes to the gametype, particularly Freestyle, as the games covered in this thread are.

It would be an advantage to any team that went first and freestyle teams don't get a random start. So, if you join all at once you can more than expect that the other team will join and use their advantage wisely. Is there truly a fair way to start a team freestyle game? Whatever the scenario, whoever goes first has the major advantage no matter if it is held by invite or a full game joined by a team.

So, they found a way to delay the inevitable join and kill...
and now someone thinks it sucks,
which is fine, but the real issue is with the gametype.
fix that and these issues go away.

The opponents can read its a freestyle game and know what they are getting themselves into.

That is the problem... they don't. Sure, they realize it is freestyle but they don't realize that they are getting into a game where their opponents are timing the start of the game and before you realize the game has started, you have already lost (very easy with unlimited forts if all 4 players are online at the exact time the game starts).
I have a hard time empathizing with that argument. Most players are aware of how freestyle works. If not, they can read the instructions. The only other way to learn is in-game. And this is fine. I am not a fan of how freestyle works and even circumstances such as these, but I cannot condone arbitrary claims of abuse based on the ignorance of how the chosen game works.

Yesterday just for the heck of it I contacted a player who was in the game waiting to start and gave him the link to the other thread where this practice was discussed. This player immediately dropped the game and thanked me for saving him points.
Cool.

Maybe there should be a cool down period, that casual freestyle trip/quad games only start x hours after the 6th or 8th player has joined. If then team 2 is not online and team 1 destroys them, well, at least they had a chance.
This is a good idea. There have been a few posted earlier that could work as well.

[ljex]

Shoot those damn freestyle farmers.

Hey, wait a second...

The biggest fact that makes this ranching IMO, is the accusations from good freestyle players that have received PMs from this group when they join one of their games. The PM paraphrased said "we are dropping the game because we wanted to wait for lower ranks to join it so we can beat them." This PM shows their intent to ranch. They aren't truly "public" games.

We LOVE playing good players. WE have joined other freestyle ranchers games to see if we can beat them on their own map (and we have). ljex and some of his friends joined our game and did the exact same thing as us, sit on an invite and wait to join last. The game was going no place, simmons sent a PM. I'm sure ljex can dig it up and paste it here so there is no mis-paraphrasing. There is no game we have ever dropped because we were scared of good players. I'd be very interested to see these "accusations" you mention.

And of course I was sorry for the quick game. Who likes to join a game and get killed before they take a turn? Just because we are doing it to get kills for medals doesn't mean I think it's a nice way to play. We figured it was just a matter of time until someone got pissy about it.

We are in a clan, we are on Skype and we are on the computer quite a bit. We coordinate, strategize and play our games the same whether we are in a war or bogrolling or anything else.

So ranching is cool as long as you pick a complicated map, or something with an objective, so going first isn't so important? Setup a dozen games and wait for noobs to join is the accepted method, gotcha! If making sure taking your turn first in freestyle is abusive then give the warnings and change the system.

chuuuck asked me for the pm...he has been filtered out of my inbox as i have received enough pm's that it got automatically deleted.

Also there are huge differences between my oasis games and your lux/doodle games. Maybe someone else will care to explain these differences to you but i have given up caring about people not realizing these differences at this point.

[ljex]

If they arent inviting their opponents directly into the game I don't think its abuse. The opponents can read its a freestyle game and know what they are getting themselves into.

But using the invite system to hold that game in place so its starts when they are online to go first. I can see how that could be abuse. Thats a pretty clear advantage. Similar to missing the manual deployment phase in city mogul to go first.

Both mentioned are GameType issues. Both can be solved with fixes to the gametype, particularly Freestyle, as the games covered in this thread are.

It would be an advantage to any team that went first and freestyle teams don't get a random start. So, if you join all at once you can more than expect that the other team will join and use their advantage wisely. Is there truly a fair way to start a team freestyle game? Whatever the scenario, whoever goes first has the major advantage no matter if it is held by invite or a full game joined by a team.

So, they found a way to delay the inevitable join and kill...
and now someone thinks it sucks,
which is fine, but the real issue is with the gametype.
fix that and these issues go away.

The opponents can read its a freestyle game and know what they are getting themselves into.

That is the problem... they don't. Sure, they realize it is freestyle but they don't realize that they are getting into a game where their opponents are timing the start of the game and before you realize the game has started, you have already lost (very easy with unlimited forts if all 4 players are online at the exact time the game starts).
I have a hard time empathizing with that argument. Most players are aware of how freestyle works. If not, they can read the instructions. The only other way to learn is in-game. And this is fine. I am not a fan of how freestyle works and even circumstances such as these, but I cannot condone arbitrary claims of abuse based on the ignorance of how the chosen game works.

Yesterday just for the heck of it I contacted a player who was in the game waiting to start and gave him the link to the other thread where this practice was discussed. This player immediately dropped the game and thanked me for saving him points.
Cool.

Maybe there should be a cool down period, that casual freestyle trip/quad games only start x hours after the 6th or 8th player has joined. If then team 2 is not online and team 1 destroys them, well, at least they had a chance.
This is a good idea. There have been a few posted earlier that could work as well.

what you dont understand is that the city mogul ruling is also a game type issue that was rule as abuse. Sometimes it is easier to make a rule against something that have lack waste his time making an update to stop a handful of players from abusing the system instead of making an update that people actually care about and the majority of cc can benefit from. You keep saying the system is flawed, and I disagree. The system is in place for players who wish to not use cheap methods...and i think more fault is on the cheap players than the system. And yes this includes myself for the oasis games...i was at fault in that situation. Its a little different for many reasons and i dont think my method is as bad as this but i do realize that i should have went about things differently.

[betiko]

just one thing; for example i never heard of this city mogul glitch. many of these glitches and warnings that go with it are known by a very limited amount of players. they are not that twisted to catch and they can come back to surface initiated by players who have not been aware it's been prohibited.

why should we not ask changes in the programming so that no one can do all these sort of things?? do you imagine the amount of rules we would have to learn specially for a new player? waste lack's time, really??? this guy runs a business with this site and we are all paying members. he gets a whole load of people working for free for him to keep this running while he gets the green. Are you trying to make us feel sorry for him because we ask for some improvements in the system when it's his job?
when it's about creating a paying tourney he has time.

[jghost7]

what you dont understand is that the city mogul ruling is also a game type issue that was rule as abuse. Sometimes it is easier to make a rule against something that have lack waste his time making an update to stop a handful of players from abusing the system instead of making an update that people actually care about and the majority of cc can benefit from. You keep saying the system is flawed, and I disagree. The system is in place for players who wish to not use cheap methods...and i think more fault is on the cheap players than the system. And yes this includes myself for the oasis games...i was at fault in that situation. Its a little different for many reasons and i dont think my method is as bad as this but i do realize that i should have went about things differently.

Perhaps. And you thinking this is fine. However, I think that some things should have priority over others, and that this may fall into this category. Fixing this basic of gametype improves this function for the whole site. I also think that making a small adjustment to the game type should not be so drastic that he would not be able to proceed with other improvements of the site.

Cheap players methods you think? I don't think cheap would be accurate in this case. I think that they were just trying to play the games without giving up any advantage. I know that if I were playing a freestyle game in the current system, I would not want to go last either. There are not many ways to start a freestyle fairly. Maybe by agreement as it currently stands , or as was stated before, maybe a delay to start giving both teams the ability to compete. If the fair start is not the issue here, then why is this here?

Thanks,

J

[Chuuuuck]

Please note, no one outside of their clan has defended these actions and said they dont' think it is abuse. I think it is obvious to everyone that isn't involved and has a stake in the action that this is abuse.

Simple quetion, if you took all the players in their games, put them all online at the same time and started those games, would they have a win ratio like they do? .... Absolutely not.

But they abuse the system to give themselves and unfair advantage taht was not meant to be given repeatedly.

This was not a problem before the invite system, because they were forced to join their game as a team, team 2 could join and they would know when the game started. So the creators of the game took on the risk.

This was a loophole created with the invite system because they are creating the game they want and then abusing the system to guarantee an advantage. They are refusing to play the game without the advantage. That gaurantees an unfair advantage 100% of the time with the settings they prefer. No other word for it than abuse.

[betiko]

Please note, no one outside of their clan has defended these actions and said they dont' think it is abuse. I think it is obvious to everyone that isn't involved and has a stake in the action that this is abuse.

Simple quetion, if you took all the players in their games, put them all online at the same time and started those games, would they have a win ratio like they do? .... Absolutely not.

But they abuse the system to give themselves and unfair advantage taht was not meant to be given repeatedly.

This was not a problem before the invite system, because they were forced to join their game as a team, team 2 could join and they would know when the game started. So the creators of the game took on the risk.

This was a loophole created with the invite system because they are creating the game they want and then abusing the system to guarantee an advantage. They are refusing to play the game without the advantage. That gaurantees an unfair advantage 100% of the time with the settings they prefer. No other word for it than abuse.

chuuck my only point here is that it's obviously taking an advantage (or being taken the advantage..) and that it should be solved by changing the codings for this because it's something so many players have done before; team freestyle is by essence unfair if you play with a steady team that plays together their turns.
Also freestyle players have the ability to remove the online status so that people don't know when they can potentially start turns. if this has been done, it's because it's known that people take advantage of offline people and they made this change to make it a bit more fair I guess. all i'm asking is for this game mode to be changed.

[jghost7]

Please note, no one outside of their clan has defended these actions and said they dont' think it is abuse. I think it is obvious to everyone that isn't involved and has a stake in the action that this is abuse.
This is a load of crock. Just because I am in a clan with them, I don't have a valid input or opinion? I have no stake in this, but I do feel strongly enough to give my thoughts and input. It should not be disregarded just because of that. LOL

Simple question, if you took all the players in their games, put them all online at the same time and started those games, would they have a win ratio like they do? .... Absolutely not.
For sure they wouldn't. I don't think it would be that far off, but there you go.

But they abuse the system to give themselves and unfair advantage taht was not meant to be given repeatedly.
I do not think that this is abuse. The other teams have the option to try to go last as well. It is a problem with the gametype rather than the invite system.

This was not a problem before the invite system, because they were forced to join their game as a team, team 2 could join and they would know when the game started. So the creators of the game took on the risk.
LOL , that was another suggestion put up earlier, to remove invites from the Freestyle gametype. It would solve the immediate issue regarding this, however I think the timer is better for this.

This was a loophole created with the invite system because they are creating the game they want and then abusing the system to guarantee an advantage. They are refusing to play the game without the advantage.
Once again you are assuming abuse. They have the option to try to wait it out if they choose, so they do. Also, they do not always create the games. It is logical to try to set up to go first if you can, so if they have a way to attempt it you jump in and cry 'Abuser, Cheater'? If you think the invite system caused the problem then one would think that a simple fix such as removing the invite system from freestyle would fix it yes?


That gaurantees an unfair advantage 100% of the time with the settings they prefer. No other word for it than abuse.
Well, I would think that one would do what he could to try to win, and that would include trying to go first in these games. Simply trying to cry abuse about something you see that you dislike, why not then try to advocate a change? Trying to win the game that they are playing by going last is not abuse. Both teams have the option to perform this action so how is it unfair? I personally think that they should just make a change to fix it.

[TheGeneral2112]

Please note, no one outside of their clan has defended these actions and said they dont' think it is abuse. I think it is obvious to everyone that isn't involved and has a stake in the action that this is abuse.

Simple quetion, if you took all the players in their games, put them all online at the same time and started those games, would they have a win ratio like they do? .... Absolutely not.

But they abuse the system to give themselves and unfair advantage taht was not meant to be given repeatedly.

This was not a problem before the invite system, because they were forced to join their game as a team, team 2 could join and they would know when the game started. So the creators of the game took on the risk.

This was a loophole created with the invite system because they are creating the game they want and then abusing the system to guarantee an advantage. They are refusing to play the game without the advantage. That gaurantees an unfair advantage 100% of the time with the settings they prefer. No other word for it than abuse.

In a foggy game without 12 hour rule, all players have invites. Do you want to be the first to join or the last? Do people hold invites as long as possible to get a screenshot? Is this also game abuse? This is actually common fucking sense and there is no reason this should be in C&A. It isn't questionable. It is as basic as not attacking a 1 from a 2. In clan games and tourney games, (without 12 hour) teams try as HARD AS THEY CAN TO JOIN LAST FOR A SCREENSHOT OR A FIRST TURN! This is why most tourney's say if you don't accept within 24 hours you are disqualified. They aren't inviting anyone other than their own team. They aren't missing turns. This should be pretty cut and dried...

Fastposted by Betiko - "team freestyle is by essence unfair if you play with a steady team that plays together their turns."

Did you honestly just say this? YES, IF YOU PLAY AGAINST A REAL TEAM, IT WILL NOT BE A WALK IN THE PARK!!

Jesus, people...

Also, Chuuck, I'm not in their clan. I'm speaking out.

[HardAttack]

thieves are gonna keep stealing, they are gonna keep saying no we are not stealing...
ppl are going to point thieves that they are stealing and cos of that must be punished,
thieves are gonna keep denying on that they are not thieves and they are not stealing...
asking them why they are stealing, they will say no they are not stealing thus they are no thieves...

freestyle, like it or dislike, has its own group of lovers/ players, not all but most of them once were named/accused to be farmers,
or another close new name today ranchers DD I mean, no way administration of this site is going to even come close to change/disable this freestyle gaming.

starting this game in early days, new recruits after a couple of games, they like playing freestyle for several reasons...
1/ it is fast game mode, player do not need to wait ages between 2 consequetive rolls.
2/ especially, new players, barely played few more and now not new recruits with 8-10ish games and not premium yet...being fremium is something forcing ppl to prefer freestyle, and site wants to keep em in cos they dont want to lose customer out, and freestyle is a good way to have em in.
3/ for a player to get the idea that freestyle is crap taking some time....a minimum 100-200 games etc, then slightly the player begin to see the BS in it. But also 200 game is the psycolgical limit/line for a player to stay in cc or leave...So from site perspective this first 200 game is important and freestyle is here to keep player in throughout the first 200 games...Then player is gonna be premium and will begin to see freestyle is BS and switch his route to sequential...

This above is a major case but of course we have got a minority around keeping playing freestyle all the time. Yes a little portion of em are maybe clean, but say % 95 are abusers/cheaters/easy unfair point makers.

[betiko]

Please note, no one outside of their clan has defended these actions and said they dont' think it is abuse. I think it is obvious to everyone that isn't involved and has a stake in the action that this is abuse.

Simple quetion, if you took all the players in their games, put them all online at the same time and started those games, would they have a win ratio like they do? .... Absolutely not.

But they abuse the system to give themselves and unfair advantage taht was not meant to be given repeatedly.

This was not a problem before the invite system, because they were forced to join their game as a team, team 2 could join and they would know when the game started. So the creators of the game took on the risk.

This was a loophole created with the invite system because they are creating the game they want and then abusing the system to guarantee an advantage. They are refusing to play the game without the advantage. That gaurantees an unfair advantage 100% of the time with the settings they prefer. No other word for it than abuse.

In a foggy game without 12 hour rule, all players have invites. Do you want to be the first to join or the last? Do people hold invites as long as possible to get a screenshot? Is this also game abuse? This is actually common fucking sense and there is no reason this should be in C&A. It isn't questionable. It is as basic as not attacking a 1 from a 2. In clan games and tourney games, (without 12 hour) teams try as HARD AS THEY CAN TO JOIN LAST FOR A SCREENSHOT OR A FIRST TURN! This is why most tourney's say if you don't accept within 24 hours you are disqualified. They aren't inviting anyone other than their own team. They aren't missing turns. This should be pretty cut and dried...

Fastposted by Betiko - "team freestyle is by essence unfair if you play with a steady team that plays together their turns."

Did you honestly just say this? YES, IF YOU PLAY AGAINST A REAL TEAM, IT WILL NOT BE A WALK IN THE PARK!!

Jesus, people...

Also, Chuuck, I'm not in their clan. I'm speaking out.

Yes, playing all together the 1st turn gives you at least 80% chances to win the game vs ANY team. unless the team starting second manages to be online all together when the starting team starts its round 2 and that they got bonuses from their round 1 for example. and that they manage to take back the "ending first" advantage. that makes a lot of IFs. so yes, a really good team starting first in unlimited freestyle can basically only lose because of the dice in my opinion.

[eddie2]

the only thing i am gonna say is this..

1)these games are filled with random players in the away teams. it is very rare for these games to fill within 24 hours so the missing player must be getting invited more than once. i see there are a couple of freemiums in these games who i guess joined because they see a quick starting game i know they can drop the game if not started within 24 hours but if they still see the invite on team 1 maybe think it is gonna start soon still.. So would this game style come partly under holding a player hostage.. due to the fact they are giving a example of a full team on one side.

[Knight2254]

Why don't we all just 'foe' them and then move on? The scoreboard is a joke so I'm not worried about that - but if they want to turn new players off from this site then that is there prerogative - however, you would think the admins would frown upon that.