Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

[natty dread]

This whole argument seems to be based around the idea that map making is a right and not a privilege.

You have it all backwards I'm afraid... Mapmaking is not a right, and the standards of the foundry process are what govern over who gets to make the maps. Those standards decide who has the privilege to create maps. If people get to make maps outside the foundry, then they are circumventing the foundry process, and therefore the same standards are not being applied to those maps. In other words, they are the ones who are treating mapmaking as if it is a "right".

If the people who dedicate their time to this site and who are proven map makers

Even "proven mapmakers" have to follow the foundry process, receive feedback and make changes according to them. No matter how "proven" you are, I still haven't seen anyone make a map that would have unchanging gameplay/graphics from version 1.

In other words, it doesn't matter if they are proven mapmakers or not, only the end result matters. And looking at most of the "surprise" maps, the end result isn't very good. The lack of feedback and proper development is always detrimental to the quality of the end product, no matter how skilled a mapmaker is working on the project. That's the whole reason we have the foundry process in the first place, and not using it for some maps is a waste of potential.

[The Bison King]

You have it all backwards I'm afraid... Mapmaking is not a right,

No on that we agree. I most definitely DO NOT see it is a right. Perhaps on that I was unclear.

the standards of the foundry process are what govern over who gets to make the maps. Those standards decide who has the privilege to create maps.

Right but, if you are a member of the select group who set those standards, you are obviously aware of them and can (should be able to) design your maps up to the site standards with out the input of the masses, and release them into general play as a surprise.

YES, I'm aware that I'm essentially saying that they are above the law and NO I wouldn't want any government to operate this way, but this isn't congress this is a fun gaming site 4 kids. What's the worst that could happen? we have a map that isn't quite up to standards? Or more likely you make some other map makers Jelly, cause they can't circumvent the system. (I know, I know, it's an argument about principles, but arguing for the sake of practicality, and expedience)

Besides this is a map on which everyone agrees that the gameplay needed improvement. I say that if Nobodies just wants to get it done, let him.

[natty dread]

Right but, if you are a member of the select group who set those standards, you are obviously aware of them and can (should be able to) design your maps up to the site standards with out the input of the masses, and release them into general play as a surprise.

No matter how select a group you are a member of, it doesn't matter. I haven't seen even the very best of the best of mapmakers make a single map that would have become what it is without feedback from the foundry community.

Lack of proper feedback is detrimental to the quality of any map, no matter how experienced the maker is. That's why we have the foundry process in the first place.

this is a fun gaming site 4 kids.

Actually, I think the median age of CC members is definitely above "kid" age.

What's the worst that could happen? we have a map that isn't quite up to standards?

So then we could just as well shut down the entire foundry, since having maps that aren't up to standards is apparently OK?

We in the foundry, mapmakers and CA:s alike, strive to provide the best possible maps for the public to play on. We don't just slap something together and figure it's "good enough" since it's only for a "kids site" (which CC really isn't). We do the best we can, endure a rigorous peer-review process of feedback and updates, and that some people get to sidestep this process simply because they're part of some inner-circle group is disrespectful to the entire foundry community.

[The Bison King]

No matter how select a group you are a member of, it doesn't matter. I haven't seen even the very best of the best of mapmakers make a single map that would have become what it is without feedback from the foundry community.

Lack of proper feedback is detrimental to the quality of any map, no matter how experienced the maker is. That's why we have the foundry process in the first place.

Yes I absolutely agree, but this is a map that has already been through the foundry, it's just like it's getting another update.

Actually, I think the median age of CC members is definitely above "kid" age.

I know I was being facetious.

So then we could just as well shut down the entire foundry, since having maps that aren't up to standards is apparently OK?

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying hat people who know what they are doing from time to time can circumvent the proper channels for the better interest of the site. If this was a philosophical argument I would agree with you, but it's not.

If you get injured at work you're supposed to fill out all the proper paper work, but sometimes you don't want to get your boss in trouble so you just ignore it... wait that was a weird analogy... The point is that every rule has exceptions. You're arguing that there are no exceptions any of the time no matter what. I'm arguing that this is reality, there are and should be exceptions, and that those decisions should be made by the people who are qualified to make them. That's all.

[natty dread]

Yes I absolutely agree, but this is a map that has already been through the foundry, it's just like it's getting another update.

What map? None of the surprise maps have been through the foundry. I don't know what you're talking about.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying hat people who know what they are doing from time to time can circumvent the proper channels for the better interest of the site. If this was a philosophical argument I would agree with you, but it's not.

But how do we decide who are these people who "know what they're doing"? When the whole thing is done behind closed doors...

Besides, you keep ignoring this part of my argument:

No matter how select a group you are a member of, it doesn't matter. I haven't seen even the very best of the best of mapmakers make a single map that would have become what it is without feedback from the foundry community.

So you see it doesn't matter that they're "proven mapmakers" or whatever (if they are...), when they lack the proper feedback and process of the foundry, there's no real quality control. Just look at the Easter & christmas maps. They do not look good.

[bryguy]

Just look at the Easter & christmas maps. They do not look good.

I have to disagree to a tad bit here. They look good, but they could look so much better.

[The Bison King]

What map? None of the surprise maps have been through the foundry. I don't know what you're talking about.

The East Asia revamp.

But how do we decide who are these people who "know what they're doing"? When the whole thing is done behind closed doors...

The CA's, and... actually I don't know, how do you become a CA?

No matter how select a group you are a member of, it doesn't matter. I haven't seen even the very best of the best of mapmakers make a single map that would have become what it is without feedback from the foundry community.

I guess here we just have a fundamental difference of opinion. You seem to view the foundry process as the only way, well or the best way really. Sure I agree that for most people especially when they're volunteers it does serve to improve their work, but I don't view this as an inherent truth for all maps and map makers. Do you think that it was the pope's nit picks and micro management that made the Sistine chapel great? Or how about the impressionist painters? Do you think their work would have been better if they listened to their peers and "painted things right rather than all splotchy". What I mean is that I don't adhere to the idea that "The customer is always right" and that the voice of 1 artist, 1 man's vision, can have far more weight to it when it hasn't already been picked apart by the general public by the time it hits the ground.

[natty dread]

The East Asia revamp.

We weren't talking about that here.

The CA's, and... actually I don't know, how do you become a CA?

Iancanton is one of the best CA:s, yet he's never made a map himself.

Being a CA is not equal to mapmaking prowess.

Besides, some of the latest "surprise" maps were made by the Entertainment team with no input from the CA:s or anyone from the foundry. How is that reasonable in any way?

I guess here we just have a fundamental difference of opinion. You seem to view the foundry process as the only way, well or the best way really. Sure I agree that for most people especially when they're volunteers it does serve to improve their work, but I don't view this as an inherent truth for all maps and map makers.

Well, the evidence is on my side I'm afraid. Look at any surprise map, the majority of them are of inferior quality to the average foundry map.

For another point, look at the maps that were made by lack's friend demonart before the foundry existed. Far east (the old one) being one. USA is another. Those are examples of maps made by a (supposedly) "professional designer" without feedback or input from a peer-review system like the foundry.

The fact that mapmakers are volunteers has nothing to do with anything. Many people here who make maps are very skilled and experienced at both graphics and gameplay design. Look at Dim or Kabanellas, they create very good looking maps, most with great gameplay. Yet, even they need the input from the foundry process to perfect their work.

If you show me one mapmaker who has made a map that required no further improving after the first draft, then we can just appoint that person to create all the behind-the-scenes maps. Until then, the foundry process should be involved in creating them.

Do you think that it was the pope's nit picks and micro management that made the Sistine chapel great? Or how about the impressionist painters?

That's totally irrelevant. You seem to think of mapmaking as an art where you can freely express yourself. When in fact it is more of a collaborative process. Sure, there are some parts where you do get to explore your artistic skills, but those need to be subservient to the larger process.

A painter, or any artist, can easily just follow his own vision and create what he wants according to his own views. There's no such thing as "bad" when it comes to art, and any piece of art can be argued to have intrinsic value in that it is an expression of something the artist wants to express. The same is not true for mapmaking... we do have standards to uphold, and we have a peer-review process in place to ensure those standards are upheld. We don't allow anyone to just create anything they want simply to let them express themselves. Like said... mapmaking is not a right.

[The Bison King]

The East Asia revamp.

We weren't talking about that here.

Didn't this whole discussion start as a result of the East Asia Revamp. I thought Dim or someone got mad about then in the thread, and then this whole thread got started. Or was that un-related?

Iancanton is one of the best CA:s, yet he's never made a map himself.

That's interesting. Interesting point man.

Well, the evidence is on my side I'm afraid. Look at any surprise map, the majority of them are of inferior quality to the average foundry map.

True but they're usually just seasonal treats that aren't up all year round any way. They're not supposed to blow minds.

For another point, look at the maps that were made by lack's friend demonart before the foundry existed. Far east (the old one) being one. USA is another. Those are examples of maps made by a (supposedly) "professional designer" without feedback or input from a peer-review system like the foundry.

Agreed those maps are pretty bad. However there are a lot of factors besides the lack of a peer review systems that set those apart. There was nothing else to compare them too at the time. Also I don't know much about this Demonart guy but maybe he just wasn't that good. A lot of professionals just aren't.

The fact that mapmakers are volunteers has nothing to do with anything. Many people here who make maps are very skilled and experienced at both graphics and gameplay design. Look at Dim or Kabanellas, they create very good looking maps, most with great gameplay. Yet, even they need the input from the foundry process to perfect their work.

Well sure I agree with that. I more meant like, rookie inexperienced map makers.

That's totally irrelevant. You seem to think of mapmaking as an art where you can freely express yourself. When in fact it is more of a collaborative process. Sure, there are some parts where you do get to explore your artistic skills, but those need to be subservient to the larger process.

Ugh, Disagree! not with the idea that there are differences between creating functional playable maps and a lovely painting but with the things you site as inherent that aren't. Specifically you say "When in fact it is more of a collaborative process" That's ONLY because we DECIDED that it is. Sure there are benefits to the collaborative process. I'm pro foundry to be sure, I think it's a good thing. I agree with you that we are better off using the foundry. I'm just trying to get you to admit that there are in fact other ways.

The same is not true for mapmaking... we do have standards to uphold, and we have a peer-review process in place to ensure those standards are upheld. We don't allow anyone to just create anything they want simply to let them express themselves. Like said... mapmaking is not a right.

Again the peer-review process was created, after the fact. (Damn it now I am arguing the philosophical... eh sort of) The standards are there because we created standards, and there are more than one way to reach those standards, than just the peer review process. A good artist can review his own work to those standards and meet them on his own terms.

[DiM]

The East Asia revamp.

We weren't talking about that here.

Didn't this whole discussion start as a result of the East Asia Revamp. I thought Dim or someone got mad about then in the thread, and then this whole thread got started. Or was that un-related?

it's explained in the first post:

The reason of this topic is the little argumentation I had with natty (mate, lately we fight for everything ) on the asia touch up thread. But in reality it's some time I hear about people annoyed by this type of maps. So, apart for that topic, in which it wasn't my intention try to circumvent the foundry process, but just try to the players of this site something better to play than what we have now, what are your thoughts about these special maps?

so natty complained about the asia touch-up and as a result tnb80 started this thread to talk about secret maps in general.

to sum it up in a few short words.
secret map making is bad because:
1. the final result is of inferior quality (both gameplay and graphics)
2. circumventing the foundry process is like taking a piss on all the other map makers that push their maps forward and work with feedback for 3-6 months.

[natty dread]

True but they're usually just seasonal treats that aren't up all year round any way. They're not supposed to blow minds.

They should be blowing minds. Minds are waiting to be blown, and we don't just want to leave them hanging.

Also I don't know much about this Demonart guy but maybe he just wasn't that good. A lot of professionals just aren't.

My point exactly.

Ugh, Disagree! not with the idea that there are differences between creating functional playable maps and a lovely painting but with the things you site as inherent that aren't. Specifically you say "When in fact it is more of a collaborative process" That's ONLY because we DECIDED that it is. Sure there are benefits to the collaborative process. I'm pro foundry to be sure, I think it's a good thing. I agree with you that we are better off using the foundry. I'm just trying to get you to admit that there are in fact other ways.

Yeah, there are other ways, and we can see how well those work out in practice. Go look at landgrab, where anyone can express themselves freely as a mapmaker, and compare the quality...

Again the peer-review process was created, after the fact.

Peer-review processes are the best way to find & fix flaws in any work. They are a tried and true method, even the scientific method uses a peer-review process - any study that is published needs to be reviewed by peers... that's because it's been found that a peer-review process simply works.

So we're in good company.

[MrBenn]

The maps made by demonart weren't just made before the foundry existed, they were made before cc existed (they were the only three maps available when the site started).

Personally I think that surprise - limited edition - maps are a good thing for the site in general. You can say that I'm biassed, but for those whom the foundry team deem worthy, why shouldn't they (the elite) be allowed some freedom for a special occasion?

[natty dread]

The maps made by demonart weren't just made before the foundry existed, they were made before cc existed (they were the only three maps available when the site started).

The point is, those maps were made without the same process of quality control that most maps go through. And it shows.

Personally I think that surprise - limited edition - maps are a good thing for the site in general. You can say that I'm biassed, but for those whom the foundry team deem worthy, why shouldn't they (the elite) be allowed some freedom for a special occasion?

Because no matter how elite you are, without the feedback and quality control from the foundry process, the quality of your work suffers. This is evident from the difference in quality (both graphical and gameplay balance) of most surprise maps.

[Flapcake]

Because no matter how elite you are, without the feedback and quality control from the foundry process, the quality of your work suffers. This is evident from the difference in quality (both graphical and gameplay balance) of most surprise maps.

I agree with that, CC got some very high skilled map makers, and when posted new drafts, its so high quality that they "almost" are to play right away, but that "almost" meens that ohter new fresh eyes gets a look at it, and changes are goin to happen for satisfying the community, yet the surprise suffers some. Still its a small core using the foundry progress and follows a map from first dash to the live stage. The surprise effect will still hit the most. So I personal think dragging those "event" map through the foundry will be more benefitting than the opposite.

[Falkomagno]

I think in a somehow combined solution. Special maps are supposed to be playable only in special occasions, and the purpose is to surprise, so that's why those maps are developed behind the scenes. But after the initial release, it should be put in a public domain, in a regular map thread where it can be discussed and reviewed as the regular maps, so the next time is playable could it be a revamped version of the special map. Just saying.

[DiM]

I think in a somehow combined solution. Special maps are supposed to be playable only in special occasions, and the purpose is to surprise, so that's why those maps are developed behind the scenes. But after the initial release, it should be put in a public domain, in a regular map thread where it can be discussed and reviewed as the regular maps, so the next time is playable could it be a revamped version of the special map. Just saying.

some "special" maps are so flawed and crappy they'd need a complete gameplay redesign. i doubt any of the "special" map makers would be willing to scratch all their work and start a normal foundry process.
on top of that some of the "special" map makers probably don't even have enough skill to see a map done the right way.

[ljex]

I havent read this entire thread, maybe a page or 2 combine from various post throughout the thread. I am by no means a foundry regular and have only been checking it over the last 2 days after i posted a map idea of my own.

Anyway to the point of my post, I am a pretty regular cc user by most standards. I play for a clan, play games i find fun, and occasionally browse and contribute to the forums time permitting. In this I feel i can offer a valuable insight of someone who is not a foundry member into this discussion. I can say without a doubt that even if you develop special maps in the open most players will not come to check them before they are released for the holiday. On top of that, even if the maps weren't a surprise, I and i think i speak for many others would rather a balanced map game-play wise than to be surprised with the holiday map. There seems to be a lot of emphasis on surprising people with these new maps every holiday but I don't really think the community cares all that much about the surprise, just about the ability to play a limited edition map.


Now if the foundry is to keep making secret maps

Personally I think that surprise - limited edition - maps are a good thing for the site in general. You can say that I'm biassed, but for those whom the foundry team deem worthy, why shouldn't they (the elite) be allowed some freedom for a special occasion?

To me it seems arbitrary who the foundry deem worthy of such a privilege. How can natty someone with 10 medals for making maps not be part of the process when others who surely have less are? I feel being all inclusive of any foundry regulars is a far better solution and ensures everyone feels like they are being treated fairly. As a student in business with a concentration in leadership, I have read a fair amount of research and text on In Group vs Out group and every single piece of literature says leaders should try to minimize this within an organization. If you take the foundry as an organization there is not much more you can do to create an in group and out group than what is currently being done. Clearly it has causes one map maker to throw in the towel which likely means more are annoyed as well. If you wish to keep making secret maps, i really dont think anyone from the community cares, but you should certainly be accepting of any foundry regulars who wish to be part of the process.

[natty dread]

The secret maps aren't made by the foundry, they're made by the entertainment team or some other admin's favorite special group... you're barking at the wrong tree ljex

[ljex]

The secret maps aren't made by the foundry, they're made by the entertainment team or some other admin's favorite special group... you're barking at the wrong tree ljex

i may not know all the specifics but the main ideas are still the same regardless of who makes these private maps.

[DiM]

even if map makers of other foundry regulars would be invited to make a secret map it would still be a bad situation.
i was asked to make one of those secret maps and i turned it down. the mere idea of short-circuiting the normal foundry process is an offence towards all map makers.
every map maker has to work for months on end nitpicking every single detail and catering to the need of every person that comes and posts in his thread. it's a process which often includes frustration, lots of work but also lots of boring times.
and then you have the special map makers who breeze in and presto whatever they do is considered solid gold.
in my opinion every person that makes or contributes to the making of a secret special map is an insult to the hardworking map makers.

what's even worse is when one on the regular mapmakers gets sucked in this process and then he comes up with excuses like:
"if it weren't for me it would have been somebody else", "it's better me than some guy from the entertainment team who knows nothing about maps"

a moral backbone is a rarity in real life so i can understand how on the internet it can be even rarer. the truth is that when it comes to complaining about the secret maps, most of the map makers and the foundry regulars are quick to bitch and moan. but given the opportunity to jump ship and take part in the making of a secret map they're eager to do it. it's sad but i guess it's normal.

[RjBeals]

But once you prove yourself with some consistent maps, you should be able to bypass the year long wait in the foundry and bang out a good "secret" map that most of the CC site will enjoy. I don't think it's an offence to the whole foundry. It's just a natural evolution. Once you reach a certain skill level, you don't need to wait a year to make a map.

[DiM]

But once you prove yourself with some consistent maps, you should be able to bypass the year long wait in the foundry and bang out a good "secret" map that most of the CC site will enjoy. I don't think it's an offence to the whole foundry. It's just a natural evolution.

what? that's absurd. it's not evolution. it's bullshit.
just because a map maker has already made X maps he still should not be allowed to make a secret map.
perfect example is oaktown. haye he made some great maps, let's let him do a secret one. and out came one of the worst maps on this site. st pattricks day map. the graphics are horrendous but that's nothing compared to the shitty gameplay.

Once you reach a certain skill level, you don't need to wait a year to make a map.

this i agree with. a very good map in both graphics as well as gameplay can be done in a matter of days. a week tops. all you need for this is a supercharged foundry taken to an extreme speed. a foundry where each day dozens of people come and give pertinent feedback.
riht now the main reason for the slow process is not the skill of the map makers but rather the lack of feedback and the slowness of the CAs.
if somebody with no graphic or xml knowledge comes to the foundry and wants to make a map he'll have time to learn photoshop, become great at it, learn the xml and still manage to be bored and annoyed by the lack of pace in the foundry.

it can take up to 2-3 months for a CA to come and look at your map and see if it's worthy of a badge. and if it's not it will probably be 1-2 more months before he comes again even if you made all the corrections he asked for the very next day.

[thenobodies80]

it can take up to 2-3 months for a CA to come and look at your map and see if it's worthy of a badge. and if it's not it will probably be 1-2 more months before he comes again even if you made all the corrections he asked for the very next day.

I hope you are deliberately exaggerating, if not, in my opinion is bullshit.
Finally you're singing a song that we've already listen many times and given an answer.
We are volunteers, not paid staff. If you don't like how we do things, feel free to send a PM to Andy and ask him to change us all....although I'm wondering how many people you'll find to replace us! Put the blue shoes for some time and you'll see how it's difficult to do this without work for free for the site if you have to follow the demand of some people, when for us is a sort of "hobby", a thing we do because we like to do it, because we love this place and we care about the people who spend hours to produce a map for almost nothing more than play it!
I bet you will leave after 3 months. We are not here 24/7 and the way you are proposing "a CA should give me an answer after 5 mins i posted" will never be used. Mapmakers have a month to provide an update, this because the site and the CAs know that this is not a job but a voluntary process.....so since the CAs role is also a volunteer thing, why we should have a different treatment? We have lifes to live, that's all...I won't reply, give an answer on this thing again!

Now, I understand what you're trying to do....but if spread negativity is the only thing that few people has decided to do, please stop here. Let me work to complete what I'm trying to do and then please try to work together to find a better solution like I did here (Tempora mutantur et nos in illis!). That thing will cost to me time, not paid time, but I'll do it for you all. And for now the lack of collaboration, the lack of willingness to participate is coming just from one side imo, and it's not blue colored. So before to point your finger against CAs all time, ask yourself: "If I really care about the foundry, if the foundry is not the place I would like to see, if I would ssee things change...then what I'm really doing to make it a better place now that someone has given to me an occasion to speak?"

Then, if you decide to not take part of this occasion, I have to say just a thing: "Now shut up!"
DiM, sometimes I'm disappointed to read your post about me and my team, specially because you can read more than others and you can see how much I work/take defense of the foundry people, try to have things for them, etc etc....really, sometimes I don't understand what're trying to do/demonstrate.

[DiM]

it can take up to 2-3 months for a CA to come and look at your map and see if it's worthy of a badge. and if it's not it will probably be 1-2 more months before he comes again even if you made all the corrections he asked for the very next day.

I hope you are deliberately exaggerating, if not, in my opinion is bullshit.

sadly i'm not exaggerating
jan 12th, clash of kings gets a draft stamp and is moved to the main foundry.
i work on the map receive feedback do several updates and 6 weeks later isaiah tells me he's satisfied with the map and he'll get the gameplay CA to take a look at the map.
2 more moths pass and that CA still hasn't arrived to look at the map, nor has any other CA for that matter. the graphics are also pretty much set with nothing but minor nitpickings for the last few months.
so how exactly am i exaggerating?

and don't give me that whole "i'm a volunteer doing unpaid work" crap.
i'm also a volunteer and when i'm asked to work on something i work on it in a matter of hours or days not weeks or months.
when gilligan comes to me asking for banners logos or dice i provide them as fast as possible otherwise the events would not take place. when i'm asked to run a tourney i make sure new games start as soon as the old ones are over. whenever i was asked to provide something i did it in no more than a few days. sometimes it was even a few hours.
and i have a wife, a kid, a night job and my little business i supervise during the day so it's not like i'm on constant vacation with 24/7 free time.
i'm not demanding CAs to respond in a matter of minutes, i never said that, but 2 months is a really long time. analyzing a map takes what? 30 minutes? one hour? 2 hours? don't tell me in 2 months no CA found enough time to look at my map and review it. especially when another CA came and said the map will be reviewed so that kinda makes you think the map is put on some sort of list and it's near the top of the priorities.

i'm not trying to spread negativity, i'm simply trying to draw attention to one of the problems in the foundry. and that is the CAs aren't really posting that much or paying attention to maps as much as needed.
you keep saying you're trying to speed up the process of map making. that spending 6-9 months on a map is unacceptable and yet there are maps who are standing idly where nobody has anything left to comment cause they're pretty much ready and yet no CA is coming to move that map forward.

i'm not a CA and yet i used to post more than ALL the CAs COMBINED. before i decided the foundry ain't worth it anymore i gave more feedback to ongoing map projects than all the CAs put together and that's when there were 6 or 7 of you guys. so don't tell me i wouldn't resist for 3 months. you've had CAs with less than 10 posts per month, and even now they average at less than 1 foundry post per day. and it's not like they're posting 10 page long essays, it's 2-3 lines of text in each post, or even less.
seriously, if you don't have the time to contribute more then don't volunteer for this. sure, you're intentions are appreciated but good intentions aren't enough.
also, i've never said anything wrong about you. in fact last i recall i had nothing but praises for you and isaiah because of the whole cartographers group you 2 work the most. i also know your crusade in the backstage and i've supported it whenever i could. but this has nothing to do with that. just because i see you working for the general interest of the foundry doesn't mean that i can't say anything bad if it's true. and the fact is that i was told a gameplay review is coming and 2 months later nothing happened. this is a fact. it's not a subjective opinion it's not something open to interpretation. it's just a simple fact. the clash of kings map is not stalled by lack of updates, or lack of feedback it is stalled by lack of involvement from the CAs. this should NEVER happen. the CAs job is to help all maps move on the right track and progress as fast and as smoothly as possible not to stall them and make everybody lose interest.

you say you found a solution or at least the means to finding a solution. 10 days ago you talked about a group for mapmakers to debate and come up with methods to improve the foundry process. while i'd oppose to the secrecy of such a group i am willing to join and try to help. but...where's that group? what happened to it? did the project die before it even started?

PS: this whole post contains more words than all the combined posts of some CAs in the past few weeks.

[ManBungalow]

I haven't read most of this thread, but one concern I'd have with developing special maps in the main foundry is the rush to get it finished before whichever event it's designed for. Or, as stated in the original post, it may only be finished for the event a year later.

Maybe the foundry should develop real maps for Christmas and Easter* made available all year round, just like we have a permanent Halloween map which is used in special events regardless ?

*I'm not saying it's the fault of the developers of these two maps, just that they were designed for non-standard gameplay which doesn't really work out