The SquirrelMasters' Quest (25/25) Night 1~A quick getaway

[thehippo8]

hmm, zimmah jumps to the rescue of VS even though VS isn't really in any trouble. First he does it "jokingly" by explaining VS's actions and then joke voting him, but then he does it seriously after spiesr's post.

This is getting interesting.

FOS zimmah

wait, what are we supposed to use instead of FOS as to stay with the theme?

Can't wait for the next installment

unvote

Time to exert some pressure?

[safariguy5]

Attack TheGeneral FOS ghostly and VS

Seriously, No lynch Day 1 is the textbook mafia move. As explained before, if we just wait around for someone to reveal something through night actions, we're going to be no lynching every single day. And if the mafia pick off our town cop, we're basically going on zero information. The information we gain from discussion is not only the vote counts, which help establish voting patterns, but also getting a feel for who supports or argues against cases. Who allies themselves with others, and a lot of these posting dynamics that are impossible without vigorous discussion. Also, getting people to roleclaim by putting them near lynch is how we can get mafia caught in fakeclaims.

All of this is impossible without discussion and pressure. The reason why I choose TheGeneral is because of his continued insistence on no lynch after people have tried to explain why no lynching is bad.

[zimmah]

hmm, zimmah jumps to the rescue of VS even though VS isn't really in any trouble. First he does it "jokingly" by explaining VS's actions and then joke voting him, but then he does it seriously after spiesr's post.

This is getting interesting.

FOS zimmah

wait, what are we supposed to use instead of FOS as to stay with the theme?

i'm not defending him in any way, i'm just saying we should not kill him for that specific reason, as it would give us no information if he dies like that.

[zimmah]

Attack TheGeneral FOS ghostly and VS

Seriously, No lynch Day 1 is the textbook mafia move. As explained before, if we just wait around for someone to reveal something through night actions, we're going to be no lynching every single day. And if the mafia pick off our town cop, we're basically going on zero information. The information we gain from discussion is not only the vote counts, which help establish voting patterns, but also getting a feel for who supports or argues against cases. Who allies themselves with others, and a lot of these posting dynamics that are impossible without vigorous discussion. Also, getting people to roleclaim by putting them near lynch is how we can get mafia caught in fakeclaims.

All of this is impossible without discussion and pressure. The reason why I choose TheGeneral is because of his continued insistence on no lynch after people have tried to explain why no lynching is bad.

that are reasons i'll fight for, for the horde!

Attack TheGeneral (wait, does their party even have a general?)

[Victor Sullivan]

Finger of Suspicion (FOS) = Readying Attack on (RAO)?
Finger of Suspicion (FOS) = Line of Sight (LOS)?

*shrugs*

-Sully

[chapcrap]

Finger of Suspicion (FOS) = Readying Attack on (RAO)?
Finger of Suspicion (FOS) = Line of Sight (LOS)?

*shrugs*

-Sully

RAO on TheGeneral2112
LOS on Haggis
Attack zimmah

[thehippo8]

Nothing seems to detrack from my initial thoughts ...Attack General

Click image to enlarge.

[TheGeneral2112]

Lol @ all of you. When I have time I will explain my nl opinions, but right now on on my phone. Just wanted to say, scummy bandwagon is scummy.

[edocsil]

Lol @ all of you. When I have time I will explain my nl opinions, but right now on on my phone. Just wanted to say, scummy bandwagon is scummy.

The thing is there really is never a good reason for a NL. It is simply not an option.

[Iliad]

Ah, the old nl debate. No there isn't any point in a no lynch. Yes it's likely we will mislynch. It's worth it as the point of the game is to create discussion.

Lol @ all of you. When I have time I will explain my nl opinions, but right now on on my phone. Just wanted to say, scummy bandwagon is scummy.

Calling people who disagree you scummy and leaving it at that is pretty scummy in itself.

Every game or so someone tries to argue in favour of a no lynch and is either rebuked or lynched. What's strange is the number of people wanting to go instantly to night.
Sully in particular doesn't seem interested in discussions, metagaming here, and is rushing to night.

I Wave a Chair in Sully's, general's and ghostly's direction.

[Victor Sullivan]

Sully in particular doesn't seem interested in discussions, metagaming here, and is rushing to night.

-Sully

[zimmah]

Ah, the old nl debate. No there isn't any point in a no lynch. Yes it's likely we will mislynch. It's worth it as the point of the game is to create discussion.

Lol @ all of you. When I have time I will explain my nl opinions, but right now on on my phone. Just wanted to say, scummy bandwagon is scummy.

Calling people who disagree you scummy and leaving it at that is pretty scummy in itself.

Every game or so someone tries to argue in favour of a no lynch and is either rebuked or lynched. What's strange is the number of people wanting to go instantly to night.
Sully in particular doesn't seem interested in discussions, metagaming here, and is rushing to night.

I Wave a Chair in Sully's, general's and ghostly's direction.

(ノ｀m´)ノ ~┻━┻ throw all furniture!

[TheGeneral2112]

Ah, the old nl debate. No there isn't any point in a no lynch. Yes it's likely we will mislynch. It's worth it as the point of the game is to create discussion.

Lol @ all of you. When I have time I will explain my nl opinions, but right now on on my phone. Just wanted to say, scummy bandwagon is scummy.

Calling people who disagree you scummy and leaving it at that is pretty scummy in itself.

Every game or so someone tries to argue in favour of a no lynch and is either rebuked or lynched. What's strange is the number of people wanting to go instantly to night.
Sully in particular doesn't seem interested in discussions, metagaming here, and is rushing to night.

I Wave a Chair in Sully's, general's and ghostly's direction.

Alrighty, what have we here? The point of the game is to create discussion? *Buzzer* WRONG! The point of the game is to lynch scum. Unless you are scum, in which case the point is to act town. Is a ML worth some discussion? Well that depends on the ML. What happens when we hit a power role? Like a doctor or a tracker? What happens if we kill our vig? Or maybe we accidentally kill another PR. Here is the point, hitting a PR with a RL is stupid. The reason I may look scummy is because IDGAF if I do. Why? Because I am not preoccupied with looking townie. I'm not playing a part. I'm preoccupied with lynching scum.

Let me move forward a tad. I didn't call anyone scummy for disagreeing with me. I called people scummy for jumping on a BW. That's what is scummy. As for your claim that I am "leaving it at that", I CLEARLY said I was on my phone. What's your deal, man? Are you trying to build a poor case for a lynch? Looking to thin the town a little bit?

Rebuke me all you want. I already said IDGAF. Lynch me if you choose, it will only prove me point.

Actual point: Assuming a rather balanced setup, I could see 17 town/6 mafia/2 3rd party. Chances of lynching town today on RL are 68% Chances of hitting scum are 24%. Our chances of lynching scum tomorrow?
Assuming a no lynch today, mafia kills 1 townie overnight & Townie accidentally kills 1 townie overnight & 3rd party recruits 1 townie? 63% chance of random lynching town, 27% random lynching mafia.

We have just decreased our chance of killing a townie by 5% and increased our chance of killing mafia by 3%. I don't care what is "customary" here, you really can't argue with the math. I don't support a random lynch and I won't support a random lynch.

All of you feel free to finish your bandwagon now.

[drunkmonkey]

Actual point: Assuming a rather balanced setup, I could see 17 town/6 mafia/2 3rd party. Chances of lynching town today on RL are 68% Chances of hitting scum are 24%. Our chances of lynching scum tomorrow?
Assuming a no lynch today, mafia kills 1 townie overnight & Townie accidentally kills 1 townie overnight & 3rd party recruits 1 townie? 63% chance of random lynching town, 27% random lynching mafia.

We have just decreased our chance of killing a townie by 5% and increased our chance of killing mafia by 3%. I don't care what is "customary" here, you really can't argue with the math. I don't support a random lynch and I won't support a random lynch.

All of you feel free to finish your bandwagon now.

Wow, that's an amazing way to skew the numbers. You increased the chance of killing scum by 3% because 3 townies died overnight. It's only "better odds" because scum just got a +3 jump on us in one night. Are you that certain that everything's going to come out in night information? With 25 players, what are the odds of the power roles actually getting good hits on N1 (especially when you're conceding that 3 of those 17 are going to die)? I'd say there's a better chance we end up in the same situation (maybe a couple WIFOM watcher/tracker results), but with a smaller town:scum ratio.

[DoomYoshi]

Hitting a PR with a RL is stupid.????

Hitting a post restriction with a real life is stupid? What do you mean?

My question for you now, general, is how are you going to help town? By not attacking? By surrendering? If that is the case then you are a useless townie. If you are a useless townie, then we will kill you, because your life is worth the same as the scums.

You are totally wrong about discussion. The only way to know who scum are is discussion. Relying on cops is not only dangerous, but is a recipe for a boring game.

Here is the thing. You are not going to convince many players here that a day 1 lynch is a bad thing. You are going to be lynched today unless you vote for someone or actually contribute to making cases. So you have 2 options: you can be stubborn, or you can play the game the way it is meant.

If you are town, which I can assume you are, you are going to be lynched today. Many scum will easily hop on your BW. This will not help us at all. Basically, what I am saying is that if you are town, why can't you play along with town? Your attitude is one of stubborness. To put some words in your mouth: "Unless they agree that I am right, I don't want to play with them anyways and I hope town loses". That is the vibe you are sending. What we want is your vibe to be: "Ok, maybe they are wrong, but if working together with people is what I have to do to ensure a town victory, then I will do it".

[jonty125]

Attack jonty125 please help me commit suicide

And a serious FOS or WS (Warning Shot) at TheGeneral2112 for suggesting a no lynch or surrender so early in D1.

[trinicardinal]

Ah, the old nl debate. No there isn't any point in a no lynch. Yes it's likely we will mislynch. It's worth it as the point of the game is to create discussion.

Lol @ all of you. When I have time I will explain my nl opinions, but right now on on my phone. Just wanted to say, scummy bandwagon is scummy.

Calling people who disagree you scummy and leaving it at that is pretty scummy in itself.

Every game or so someone tries to argue in favour of a no lynch and is either rebuked or lynched. What's strange is the number of people wanting to go instantly to night.
Sully in particular doesn't seem interested in discussions, metagaming here, and is rushing to night.

I Wave a Chair in Sully's, general's and ghostly's direction.

Alrighty, what have we here? The point of the game is to create discussion? *Buzzer* WRONG! The point of the game is to lynch scum.

- Discussion can help us to find some scum... you want to try finding scum by night actions only?

Unless you are scum, in which case the point is to act town. Is a ML worth some discussion? Well that depends on the ML. What happens when we hit a power role? Like a doctor or a tracker? What happens if we kill our vig? Or maybe we accidentally kill another PR. Here is the point, hitting a PR with a RL is stupid.

- hence why discussion is important. you give people chance to claim if necessary and if they are an important power role then you back your a** off and get someone else.

The reason I may look scummy is because IDGAF if I do. Why? Because I am not preoccupied with looking townie. I'm not playing a part. I'm preoccupied with lynching scum. -

that's a nice way to win friends and influence people.

Actual point: Assuming a rather balanced setup, I could see 17 town/6 mafia/2 3rd party. Chances of lynching town today on RL are 68% Chances of hitting scum are 24%. Our chances of lynching scum tomorrow?
Assuming a no lynch today, mafia kills 1 townie overnight & Townie accidentally kills 1 townie overnight & 3rd party recruits 1 townie? 63% chance of random lynching town, 27% random lynching mafia.

We have just decreased our chance of killing a townie by 5% and increased our chance of killing mafia by 3%. I don't care what is "customary" here, you really can't argue with the math. I don't support a random lynch and I won't support a random lynch.

All of you feel free to finish your bandwagon now.

we would have decreased out chance of killing a townie by 5% by reducing our townies by (3/17) = 17.6%

You're right I can't really argue with the math.

Attack TheGeneral2112

oh and leaving that math behind - the party is 4 people

Our Heroes:

The SquirrelMasters are an adventuring party of four members.

... where did you come up with a figure of 6 for your mafia element? Do you know something we don't? Or are you just skimming? or trying to hide something else?

[zimmah]

Ah, the old nl debate. No there isn't any point in a no lynch. Yes it's likely we will mislynch. It's worth it as the point of the game is to create discussion.

Lol @ all of you. When I have time I will explain my nl opinions, but right now on on my phone. Just wanted to say, scummy bandwagon is scummy.

Calling people who disagree you scummy and leaving it at that is pretty scummy in itself.

Every game or so someone tries to argue in favour of a no lynch and is either rebuked or lynched. What's strange is the number of people wanting to go instantly to night.
Sully in particular doesn't seem interested in discussions, metagaming here, and is rushing to night.

I Wave a Chair in Sully's, general's and ghostly's direction.

Alrighty, what have we here? The point of the game is to create discussion? *Buzzer* WRONG! The point of the game is to lynch scum. Unless you are scum, in which case the point is to act town.

...

All of you feel free to finish your bandwagon now.

1) in all mafia games i have played with you, you're rude to very rude, calm down, it's a game. ( i know i can be pretty aggressive too, but at least i'm trying not to be rude, i'm not sure if people think of me as rude, but really, i have even seen you yell at mods in a not really polite fashion.)

2) you claim to be trying to lynch people, 'preoccupied' being so even yet you surrender almost immediately. but let me quote you on something funny:

Is a ML worth some discussion? Well that depends on the ML.

how would you know the difference, if you don't allow for any discussion by hiding in a corner the first few seconds of a fight?

Hiding in corners doesn't help anyone, especially f everyone does it, that will not give us any information, and ultimatly will not prevent a misslynch, it will only delay the inevitable, and make it strike much harder when it hits. It's better to misslynch day 1 where we still have all options available and plenty of time to figure out what's going on, then to have a no lynch for the first few days until being forced to lynch someone while half of town is laying dead on the ground allready.

the best way to find scum (especially early game) is through discussion, some lies may not hold up against facts revealed later thoughout the game, someone might simply slip up, etc. if we don't discuss, the game will bleed to death and town will be confused.

The reason I may look scummy is because IDGAF if I do. Why? Because I am not preoccupied with looking townie. I'm not playing a part. I'm preoccupied with lynching scum.

3) if you "DGAF" if you look scum or not, you're probably not of much help to town, you'd care about it if you had a power role, since you don't care about it, i suppose you're not of much use since you'll not be a power role. Give me 1 good reason not to attack you right now.

Let me move forward a tad. I didn't call anyone scummy for disagreeing with me. I called people scummy for jumping on a BW. That's what is scummy. As for your claim that I am "leaving it at that", I CLEARLY said I was on my phone. What's your deal, man? Are you trying to build a poor case for a lynch? Looking to thin the town a little bit?

4) it's only early Day 1, any and all cases will be weak at best, and most of the bandwagons are either jokes, or to see what happens when we apply some pressure, some people crack under pressure and that is exactly what we look for on day 1, this gives us much more information later in the game. Joining in the fights on day 1 is neccesary, even if you're not sure why you're fighting, it's just needed and fun too. If you randomly pick fights with people in later days it is likely scummy, but that's a whole 'nother subject.

Actual point: Assuming a rather balanced setup, I could see 17 town/6 mafia/2 3rd party. Chances of lynching town today on RL are 68% Chances of hitting scum are 24%. Our chances of lynching scum tomorrow?

i don't know what made you think there's 6 mafia, while the opening post clearly desribed a party of 4 'heroes' FYI those 4 heroes need to die in order for 'town' to win. those 4 would be considered 'mafia'. As you pointed out by the sheer size of this game, having only 4 evil heroes would be imbalanced, however:

- We are not sure if there's any 3rd party yet (which is more then likely)
- It's even more likely those 'heroes' will have really powerfull abilities, making them more dangerous then 4 normal mafia members would be
- I may be missing some possible theories as well.

no matter what math you use to predict a townie or a scum lynch though, 1 townie is NOT equal to 1 scum, scum is always more powerfull then town, so trading 1 for 1 is ALWAYS a win for town, and often even trading 2 for 1 is a reasonable option.

[zimmah]

Attack jonty125 please help me commit suicide

And a serious FOS or WS (Warning Shot) at TheGeneral2112 for suggesting a no lynch or surrender so early in D1.

he's softclaiming archer or wizard, he's shooting stuff!

[jonty125]

Attack jonty125 please help me commit suicide

And a serious FOS or WS (Warning Shot) at TheGeneral2112 for suggesting a no lynch or surrender so early in D1.

he's softclaiming archer or wizard, he's shooting stuff!

WS zimmah or I'll put a arrow through the back of his head for insulting us archers.

[zimmah]

Attack jonty125 please help me commit suicide

And a serious FOS or WS (Warning Shot) at TheGeneral2112 for suggesting a no lynch or surrender so early in D1.

he's softclaiming archer or wizard, he's shooting stuff!

WS zimmah or I'll put a arrow through the back of his head for insulting us archers.

i didn't insult you archers, i just pointed out for future refference (and kinda a joke, but seeing as you replied being archer, i'll take that as a real softclaim).

shoots arrow back at jonty

[jonty125]

Attack jonty125 please help me commit suicide

And a serious FOS or WS (Warning Shot) at TheGeneral2112 for suggesting a no lynch or surrender so early in D1.

he's softclaiming archer or wizard, he's shooting stuff!

WS zimmah or I'll put a arrow through the back of his head for insulting us archers.

i didn't insult you archers, i just pointed out for future refference (and kinda a joke, but seeing as you replied being archer, i'll take that as a real softclaim).

shoots arrow back at jonty

No its just me being funny

[Iliad]

Others have already jumped in and argued my point. However there is a very easy way to show how laughably wrong your argument is.

You're proposing that town do nothing, because once mafia makes up a greater proportion of the population it will be mathematically more probable to lynch them. So at what point does town stop twiddling their thumbs while mafia offs them at night, one by one? Mafia is a race, between mafia trying to whittle down town, while confusing and controlling them, and town trying to discover mafia. You're proposing that town gives mafia a nice headstart. Thanks, but no thanks.

Attack general.
Either you're trying to hurt town's chances, in which case obviously you should be lynched, or you are refusing to participate in the game and therefore that would make you useless and only helping mafia.
You're like a football(socccer for dirty americans) player who refuses to pass, dribble or move because that isn't the point of the game. Sure the point of football is to get the ball into the goal, but you have to work to get it there.

[spiesr]

Hitting a post restriction with a real life is stupid? What do you mean?

That sounds pretty hilarious to me.

Actual point: Assuming a rather balanced setup, I could see 17 town/6 mafia/2 3rd party.

If you allow me to argue these numbers for a moment. This game is a little bit special when it comes to balance. The four man adventuring party is the mafia group. Accordingly I don't think that there are 6 mafia. I suppose there is a chance of a Spy, or a vampire that could bolster their numbers, but we don't know on that vector. As for third party, this game has unique endgame mechanics. It ends in a mafia victory if the VIP is killed. In a setup like that, I could see a significant amount of survivors, but I don't know how well any other third parties would actually fit in. An SK would find his win condition of killing everybody nearly impossible to achieve. Cult has similar issues, since they normally win by outnumbering the town after all scum all dead, it would be severely handicapped by the instant win condition. The cult could be going along, slipping by undetected, growing it's numbers, and then BAM scum killed the VIP, game over cult loses.

On a completely different note, I must express some measure of concern about the bandwagon building up on the General. I think that he has become too easy of a target here, and people are now hopping on it without thinking and hopping too avoid the consequences that will result. (Also, I fear a rage quit.)

[Rodion]

General, I could argue that the numbers you posted don't actually support your point (Iliad just explained why in his latest post), but instead I only have one question to you.

You're playing in Soundman's First Mafia. It's D2 there. I read all your D1 posts and you never suggested a no-lynch/surrender. Your point that by waiting we'll get more accurate lynches later on in the game could be used there as well (the more townies that die, the easier it gets to hit scum later on). The question is: why did your behaviour change 180º from one game to another?