M:tG Planeswalker mafia - Town wins!

[TA1LGUNN3R]

It is hard to catch scum in a question-answer exchange when they buy time to think deeply and avoid scummy answers, so the best way to avoid such an undesirable scenario is to actively threaten them into answering quickly. If they don't answer quickly, the delay should be seen as scummy in itself for the aforementioned reasons.

With that said, FOS Wildwilliam.

Also, I wanted to say I agree with this here. wildwilliam has also been giving me vibes. If Rodion turned up innocent I would probably go after william next.

-Tails

[sheepofdumb]

4 - Yoshi, when you answered "I don't see the contradiction" to Iron, it wasn't really a contradiction but more an inconsistency. Iron defended me and you promptly threatened him (something to the extent of "if Rodion flips scum you're looking to be the target for tomorrow, Iron"). Then PCM defended me and you did not threaten him at all. Iron's claim is that you arbitrarily applied a double standard that "convicted" him and "acquitted" (or simply ignored) PCM.

Iron is being attacked because he's really putting himself out there to defend you. He also seems to be linked to you.

I voted Rodion because I felt intimidated to do so. Somthing is amiss and I dont have all the answers.

If that's not a link I don't know what is. If you're scum then Iron definitely is.

PCM on the other hand just flat out doesn't think you're scum. He's not showing any connection to you. Could he be a possible scummate? Yeah, maybe but I'm not getting that vibe.

Did you just instruct Town to Night Kill me?

Town needs to communicate. Calling for roles to do something gives that role an idea as to what others want. I recognize it as a threat against you but I believe you are linked to Rodion and therefore very likely to be scum. If Rodion does not flip scum then we could be wrong about you.

[freezie]

6 - Just want to point out that Freezie's last "actual" post was from Nov 19, with all 3 latter posts being safe remarks about how a mod determines roles, how people should be more polite and other stuff that can't get him under the spotlight since he is not taking any stance and simply giving out answers much like Swifte in the current official game.

And I'll say that I actually ''caught'' myself doing it before you even pointed it out. I am aware, but I really don't have anything to add. I can shut up if you want, but you'll say I am scumarrining. So what else? My vote is not shifting, and I won't make a 20 pages' post like fircoal did to show it. Shame on me, but even mategaming is against you in this case, as what you are doing is pretty much what I seen you doing in every mafia you were mafia.

And yes, this is another ''safe remark''. I don't have anything new to add, when I do, I will. You can be sure of that.

[pancakemix]

Shame on me, but even mategaming is against you in this case, as what you are doing is pretty much what I seen you doing in every mafia you were mafia.

I disagree that metagaming is against him in this case, unless you mean metagaming that he's always mafia. In that case, yes it's very much against him.

You see, it's impossible to metagame someone when there's no data for one particular side. You could say he'd mentor his scummates, but you don't know whether or not he'd mentor players he thought were town. Or he's more interested in mentoring a newer player in general. There are simply too many possibilities for you to say "this is a player-specific tell".

[freezie]

Shame on me, but even mategaming is against you in this case, as what you are doing is pretty much what I seen you doing in every mafia you were mafia.

I disagree that metagaming is against him in this case, unless you mean metagaming that he's always mafia. In that case, yes it's very much against him.

You see, it's impossible to metagame someone when there's no data for one particular side. You could say he'd mentor his scummates, but you don't know whether or not he'd mentor players he thought were town. Or he's more interested in mentoring a newer player in general. There are simply too many possibilities for you to say "this is a player-specific tell".

I was half joking, considering he is always mafia But the other half, well, you just destroyed it. He seems to always react to beeing attacked as scum, but yea you're right, I wouldn't know about the other way around.

In any cases..My vote stays.

[wildwilliam]

I have to drive for 12 hours. I will read, catch up , and post tomorrow.

[Iron Butterfly]

4 - Yoshi, when you answered "I don't see the contradiction" to Iron, it wasn't really a contradiction but more an inconsistency. Iron defended me and you promptly threatened him (something to the extent of "if Rodion flips scum you're looking to be the target for tomorrow, Iron"). Then PCM defended me and you did not threaten him at all. Iron's claim is that you arbitrarily applied a double standard that "convicted" him and "acquitted" (or simply ignored) PCM.

Iron is being attacked because he's really putting himself out there to defend you. He also seems to be linked to you.

I voted Rodion because I felt intimidated to do so. Somthing is amiss and I dont have all the answers.

If that's not a link I don't know what is. If you're scum then Iron definitely is.

PCM on the other hand just flat out doesn't think you're scum. He's not showing any connection to you. Could he be a possible scummate? Yeah, maybe but I'm not getting that vibe.

Did you just instruct Town to Night Kill me?

Town needs to communicate. Calling for roles to do something gives that role an idea as to what others want. I recognize it as a threat against you but I believe you are linked to Rodion and therefore very likely to be scum. If Rodion does not flip scum then we could be wrong about you.

So tell me somthing. For someone who has only posted once or twice during the game, How exactly is it that you are so sure he is Town? He either is Town or is not Town. You have someone directing Town players to use their roles and you shrug it off as, "Town needs to communnicate" without even a mention he could also be Mafia.

[DoomYoshi]

Stop distorting the truth iron. You are making yourself look worse with every post. It pays off for people to declare their wishes. Everyone is assumed innocent to start the game. Nobody said, or even implied, that somebody was 100% town.

[Victor Sullivan]

Knowing how Iron Butterfly played in his first game, I think we can safely assume he's town

-Sully

[Iron Butterfly]

Stop distorting the truth iron. You are making yourself look worse with every post. It pays off for people to declare their wishes. Everyone is assumed innocent to start the game. Nobody said, or even implied, that somebody was 100% town.

I voted you guilty for that exact reason. I think people will be smart enough to see that.

Illiad doesnt post for the entire game and then shows up out of the blue, which of itself is fine. He then tries to direct town roles.

PCM says it is Town trying to communicate. No big deal.

Seeing how Iliad could just as easily be Mafia as Town why would anyone even consider it as legitemate communication? Tell me how you know he is Town and not Mafia?

If you beleive Iliad is Town after one post tell me what evidence supports this?

If you beleive Illiad is Mafia after his Post tell me what evidence supports this?

If you can not do either then explain to everyone how one can safely take the advice of Iliad?

Its a simple common sense question really and a question that needs to be asked.

[DoomYoshi]

Trying to direct town roles is not a crime. Anyone can communicate not only who they think should be lynched, but also who should be investigated, vigged, protected, recruiter, whatever. There is no reason to assume he is mafia, there is usually a base assumption that people are town until proven otherwise. At the start of the game everyone is town. That is why discussion is important to figure out who mafia are.

We don't have to safely follow Iliad's advice. The vig gets to make his own choice. If you don't want to get killed, you need to convince the vig that it is not a good idea.

This is safely within the realm of legitimate communication.

[DoomYoshi]

Knowing how Iron Butterfly played in his first game, I think we can safely assume he's town

-Sully

I don't follow. I also don't like how you are floating by with one-liners.

[Iron Butterfly]

Trying to direct town roles is not a crime. Anyone can communicate not only who they think should be lynched, but also who should be investigated, vigged, protected, recruiter, whatever. There is no reason to assume he is mafia, there is usually a base assumption that people are town until proven otherwise. At the start of the game everyone is town. That is why discussion is important to figure out who mafia are.

We don't have to safely follow Iliad's advice. The vig gets to make his own choice. If you don't want to get killed, you need to convince the vig that it is not a good idea.

This is safely within the realm of legitimate communication.

False. You never know for certianty a persons role until they are dead. Otherwise you would not have so many games where Town is lynched day one.

Trying to direct town roles may not be a crime in itself but it also depends on what day of the game it is done and the circumstances involved. We are in DAY 1. We have two players declared town already and you want to give the benifit of the doubt to an unkown player?

Are you saying, "Its ok guys hes probobly town"?

[DoomYoshi]

No. I am saying that unless he gives us reason to believe otherwise, we assume he is town. That's what pcm meant when he said it is town communicating.

[Iron Butterfly]

No. I am saying that unless he gives us reason to believe otherwise, we assume he is town. That's what pcm meant when he said it is town communicating.

Iliad is a player who has offered nothing to the conversation or the game up until his last post and then makes a major scum tell.

If you where to ask Illiad or any of the players what faction are you everyone would say "I am Town" Why? Because Mafia will lie.

Iliad is basicly taking it one step further by saying, "Hey everyone I am Town and I am advising you to use your night kill ability on a player.TRUST ME."

This is day ONE and you have no idea who is who. Unlike you I assume nothing.

A great irony is that Slowreactor is in Blakes South Park game and he has been forced to claim or be lynced for doing exactly what Iliad did, by trying to direct Town action on a player on day one. For some reason folks think its scum behavior.LOL its funny who that player is.

[DoomYoshi]

No. I am saying that unless he gives us reason to believe otherwise, we assume he is town. That's what pcm meant when he said it is town communicating.

Iliad is a player who has offered nothing to the conversation or the game up until his last post and then makes a major scum tell.

If you where to ask Illiad or any of the players what faction are you everyone would say "I am Town" Why? Because Mafia will lie.

Iliad is basicly taking it one step further by saying, "Hey everyone I am Town and I am advising you to use your night kill ability on a player.TRUST ME."

This is day ONE and you have no idea who is who. Unlike you I assume nothing.

A great irony is that Slowreactor is in Blakes South Park game and he has been forced to claim or be lynced for doing exactly what Iliad did, by trying to direct Town action on a player on day one. For some reason folks think its scum behavior.LOL its funny who that player is.

As a general rule, don't talk about games in progress. It is unfashionable. I made a bit of a jump when I spoke about UNKNOWN, but that game is ready for the archive.

[Iron Butterfly]

No. I am saying that unless he gives us reason to believe otherwise, we assume he is town. That's what pcm meant when he said it is town communicating.

Iliad is a player who has offered nothing to the conversation or the game up until his last post and then makes a major scum tell.

If you where to ask Illiad or any of the players what faction are you everyone would say "I am Town" Why? Because Mafia will lie.

Iliad is basicly taking it one step further by saying, "Hey everyone I am Town and I am advising you to use your night kill ability on a player.TRUST ME."

This is day ONE and you have no idea who is who. Unlike you I assume nothing.

A great irony is that Slowreactor is in Blakes South Park game and he has been forced to claim or be lynced for doing exactly what Iliad did, by trying to direct Town action on a player on day one. For some reason folks think its scum behavior.LOL its funny who that player is.

As a general rule, don't talk about games in progress. It is unfashionable. I made a bit of a jump when I spoke about UNKNOWN, but that game is ready for the archive.

Yes you are right. My bad.

[Iliad]

No. I am saying that unless he gives us reason to believe otherwise, we assume he is town. That's what pcm meant when he said it is town communicating.

Iliad is a player who has offered nothing to the conversation or the game up until his last post and then makes a major scum tell.

Here you are again trying to draw attention to something, anything other than rodion.

Major scum tell? Please. I realise that you are feeling threatened by the vig remark, but the truth is, I'm not signing your death warrant, you did. If Rodion is lynched, which I hope he is, and if he's scum then it is most likely that you are scum also s you have tried to defend far too much. In this scenario someone with night kill abilities, preferably a standard vig if we've got one will shoot you. It's all very simple, logical and done often. I pointed this out for the sake of any inexperienced players in case they're playing a vig. If you are playing one and you're unsure do remember only to shoot if Rodion is scum.

If you where to ask Illiad or any of the players what faction are you everyone would say "I am Town" Why? Because Mafia will lie.

Dear god, you've cracked the game...

Iliad is basicly taking it one step further by saying, "Hey everyone I am Town and I am advising you to use your night kill ability on a player.TRUST ME."

Yes. Yes I am. In the scenario that Rodion flips scum you are almost guaranteed to be also scum. I felt that this was critical information that others should clearly know and take into account once night 1 starts.

This is day ONE and you have no idea who is who. Unlike you I assume nothing.

Actually we do. That's the whole point of the game, to work out from discussion who is who.It may still be day 1 but you've given more than enough indication of your desire to protect Rodion which may spell a lot of trouble.

Still you're only getting vigged if Rodion flips scum, so you would only be getting desperate and trying to attack me if you thought this would be the case, no?

[Iron Butterfly]

No. I am saying that unless he gives us reason to believe otherwise, we assume he is town. That's what pcm meant when he said it is town communicating.

Iliad is a player who has offered nothing to the conversation or the game up until his last post and then makes a major scum tell.

Here you are again trying to draw attention to something, anything other than rodion.

Major scum tell? Please. I realise that you are feeling threatened by the vig remark, but the truth is, I'm not signing your death warrant, you did. If Rodion is lynched, which I hope he is, and if he's scum then it is most likely that you are scum also s you have tried to defend far too much. In this scenario someone with night kill abilities, preferably a standard vig if we've got one will shoot you. It's all very simple, logical and done often. I pointed this out for the sake of any inexperienced players in case they're playing a vig. If you are playing one and you're unsure do remember only to shoot if Rodion is scum.

If you where to ask Illiad or any of the players what faction are you everyone would say "I am Town" Why? Because Mafia will lie.

Dear god, you've cracked the game...

Iliad is basicly taking it one step further by saying, "Hey everyone I am Town and I am advising you to use your night kill ability on a player.TRUST ME."

Yes. Yes I am. In the scenario that Rodion flips scum you are almost guaranteed to be also scum. I felt that this was critical information that others should clearly know and take into account once night 1 starts.

This is day ONE and you have no idea who is who. Unlike you I assume nothing.

Actually we do. That's the whole point of the game, to work out from discussion who is who.It may still be day 1 but you've given more than enough indication of your desire to protect Rodion which may spell a lot of trouble.

Still you're only getting vigged if Rodion flips scum, so you would only be getting desperate and trying to attack me if you thought this would be the case, no?

The game is more then just Rodion.

What would the ramifications be if you are Mafia and I am Town?

[freezie]

The game is more then just Rodion.

What would the ramifications be if you are Mafia and I am Town?

There wouldn't be any, since you wouldn't feel threatened by the vig killing you if Rodion ( and yourself, for that matters ) are found out to be town.

What Illiad said, and you missed the point it seems, is that you're deeply linking yourself to Rodion, and if he is scum, then you're also a danger. If you and Rodion are town, Illiad's point stay the same. However, The vig should know to look somewhere else...Which mean nowhere, normally.

[edocsil]

The game is more then just Rodion.

What would the ramifications be if you are Mafia and I am Town?

There wouldn't be any, since you wouldn't feel threatened by the vig killing you if Rodion ( and yourself, for that matters ) are found out to be town.

What Illiad said, and you missed the point it seems, is that you're deeply linking yourself to Rodion, and if he is scum, then you're also a danger. If you and Rodion are town, Illiad's point stay the same. However, The vig should know to look somewhere else...Which mean nowhere, normally.

Counterpoint!

Iron could easily be linking himself to someone he knows to be a townie due to the fact that he is scum. Then when this all falls out he can go "Look at me I defended a townie!" Rodion turning town would prove nothing for Iron IMO.

[Iron Butterfly]

The game is more then just Rodion.

What would the ramifications be if you are Mafia and I am Town?

There wouldn't be any, since you wouldn't feel threatened by the vig killing you if Rodion ( and yourself, for that matters ) are found out to be town.

What Illiad said, and you missed the point it seems, is that you're deeply linking yourself to Rodion, and if he is scum, then you're also a danger. If you and Rodion are town, Illiad's point stay the same. However, The vig should know to look somewhere else...Which mean nowhere, normally.

Counterpoint!

Iron could easily be linking himself to someone he knows to be a townie due to the fact that he is scum. Then when this all falls out he can go "Look at me I defended a townie!" Rodion turning town would prove nothing for Iron IMO.

While that could easily be another scenario if I was Mafia there are a myriad number of scenarios that could reach different conclusions then yours.

[freezie]

The game is more then just Rodion.

What would the ramifications be if you are Mafia and I am Town?

There wouldn't be any, since you wouldn't feel threatened by the vig killing you if Rodion ( and yourself, for that matters ) are found out to be town.

What Illiad said, and you missed the point it seems, is that you're deeply linking yourself to Rodion, and if he is scum, then you're also a danger. If you and Rodion are town, Illiad's point stay the same. However, The vig should know to look somewhere else...Which mean nowhere, normally.

Counterpoint!

Iron could easily be linking himself to someone he knows to be a townie due to the fact that he is scum. Then when this all falls out he can go "Look at me I defended a townie!" Rodion turning town would prove nothing for Iron IMO.

Yes, yes, that is absolutly correct. Nothing would be proved in any way, even if Rodion turns town, it does not mean anything. But what Illiad said ( and that I agree with ) is, if I was the vig and Rodion turned out scum, I would take the chance to hit Iron. If Rodion turns up town, I would hold my fire, at least one more night.

Ok, Illiad didn't say it that way, but that's the way I saw it. Which Iron does not seem to understand, is that he shouldn't try to bash Illiad for what he has done in suggesting a possible vig to hit a certain target, but to void that statement..

I don't make sense at all, but whatever...

[freezie]

EBWOP

I meant if Rodion turns up scum aswell, it wouldn't mean anything also. Town aswell, but didn't mean to write that either way

[shieldgenerator7]

Alright! Caught up!

I was not convinced at first but seeing how iron is trying to deflect attention from Rodion I will VOTE RODION. Let's see what Rodion flips, it does seem to be scum buddies protecting each other.

-SG7 ( )