M:tG Planeswalker mafia - Town wins!

[Iron Butterfly]

Can I ask a few questions here? What good is there in shield NOT revealing his partner? And what bad is there if he does? This is an NV game, right? The argument that we're more likely to lose a power role tonight is a fallacy. No shit we're going to lose a power role. On the other hand, if he doesn't tell us and he dies somehow we never know who his mason partner is and lose potential for a townie whose insight we can trust unconditionally.

I put forward that Rodion actually did a GOOD thing by asking for shield's mason partner. I see no reason why he should be persecuted the way he is right now.

If Rodion is lynched and turns out to be Mafia I wonder what Doom Yoshi would say about your opinion.

Iron, this is the kind of comment you hold until Yoshi posts. You had a nice chance of catching Yoshi in an inconsistency by waiting to see how he would react to PCM, but once you publicly called him out that immediately got much harder.

For further record, next time an opportunity like this arises you should patiently wait for the person under scrutiny to voice their opinions (or at least post in the thread once, acknowledging he read the post and is simply ignoring it) and only then show the inconsistency (if there is one).

Question to everyone: do you feel my latest response to Tail (page 18, in blue) didn't say anything new?

Sarcasm doesnt translate well it seems.

[DoomYoshi]

Can I ask a few questions here? What good is there in shield NOT revealing his partner? And what bad is there if he does? This is an NV game, right? The argument that we're more likely to lose a power role tonight is a fallacy. No shit we're going to lose a power role. On the other hand, if he doesn't tell us and he dies somehow we never know who his mason partner is and lose potential for a townie whose insight we can trust unconditionally.

I put forward that Rodion actually did a GOOD thing by asking for shield's mason partner. I see no reason why he should be persecuted the way he is right now.

If Rodion is lynched and turns out to be Mafia I wonder what Doom Yoshi would say about your opinion.

Sarcasm doesn't translate at all. I will say exactly what I said before. Those who defend Rodion are more likely to be scum. The reason I jumped on your case so much was that you defended Rodion, then voted for Rodion after some pressure. This is a typical scum thing to do. Town has no reason to vote based on what others would think of them. Scum are the ones trying to make everyone think they are town. Furthermore, as I have been in mafia with Rodion (Zelda), I know that he only gives advice to players if they are in the mafia with him, so his most recent scolding of you makes it even more likely.

The reason I will never Unvote Rodion: jail keeper is just as likely a mafia role, therefore it's not a real good claim at all. Also, I don't want even a town jail keeper running amok tonight.

[Iron Butterfly]

Can I ask a few questions here? What good is there in shield NOT revealing his partner? And what bad is there if he does? This is an NV game, right? The argument that we're more likely to lose a power role tonight is a fallacy. No shit we're going to lose a power role. On the other hand, if he doesn't tell us and he dies somehow we never know who his mason partner is and lose potential for a townie whose insight we can trust unconditionally.

I put forward that Rodion actually did a GOOD thing by asking for shield's mason partner. I see no reason why he should be persecuted the way he is right now.

If Rodion is lynched and turns out to be Mafia I wonder what Doom Yoshi would say about your opinion.

Sarcasm doesn't translate at all. I will say exactly what I said before. Those who defend Rodion are more likely to be scum. The reason I jumped on your case so much was that you defended Rodion, then voted for Rodion after some pressure. This is a typical scum thing to do. Town has no reason to vote based on what others would think of them. Scum are the ones trying to make everyone think they are town. Furthermore, as I have been in mafia with Rodion (Zelda), I know that he only gives advice to players if they are in the mafia with him, so his most recent scolding of you makes it even more likely.

The reason I will never Unvote Rodion: jail keeper is just as likely a mafia role, therefore it's not a real good claim at all. Also, I don't want even a town jail keeper running amok tonight.

Doom Yoshi you and Rodion are both sharp players. You both argue well. As I said in an ealrlier post truth is a matter of perspective. Because you beleive somthing does not make it true. You out and out contradicted yourself when you misread jgordons post.

Lets be honest here. You could just as easily be Mafia as Rodion. You have been out to hammer without letup on anyone you seem to find an opening with. You did it with jgordon. Your on Rodion like a laser. Granted Rodion has reason to be questioned.
But you havnt even considered an alternative.

VOTE DOOM YOSHI

First you completely ignore pancakemixs comment to focus on me, which completely contridicts what you are saying.

Second and more importantly you are trying to wrap me up in a nice little package for lynching by associating me with another players behavior I have absolutley no control over.

Correlation Implies Causation

From MafiaWiki

Also known as Ignoring the Common Cause
Often independent factors are used to imply that one action causes another. A famous example is this:
Ice cream sales go up in the summer.
Criminal activity goes up in the summer.
Therefore, the consumption of ice cream is partly responsible for criminal behavior.
(in truth, both actions are predicated by a different factor - increased temperatures)
In a Mafia game, this logical fallacy can be used to create an appearance of guilty behavior about someone else's actions. A common example is using someone's Lurking as evidence that they were avoiding lynching someone of their Faction, or that they were the cause of a missed Night Choice. Frequently, the two actions are instead simultaneous but factually unrelated.

You have played with Rodion in past games.
He only gives advice to other mafia players.
Hence I must be mafia

If this is not a blatent attempt to try and discredit me using false logic then I dont know what is. You know exactly what you are doing and must know this is bullcrap logic.

[Iron Butterfly]

...and did I mention that its a super scummy mafia tell?

[jgordon1111]

ok most of you have played with each other before and know how who plays to some degree,this is somewhat evident in the discussions,so lets put that aside and think about it from a different angle,slowreactor is the moderator and has played with most of you,from what he knows of each of you and your playing style's, his first mafia game he wouldnt set mafia for an easy kill,the four or how many ever best players would be mafia,and the best player in his mind would be the godfather,he wouldnt take the chance of somebody not being able to handle that role.So try thinking like slow and who would be the best in his mind for those roles.lets try that maybe.Any thoughts or am i off base with this

[Iron Butterfly]

ok most of you have played with each other before and know how who plays to some degree,this is somewhat evident in the discussions,so lets put that aside and think about it from a different angle,slowreactor is the moderator and has played with most of you,from what he knows of each of you and your playing style's, his first mafia game he wouldnt set mafia for an easy kill,the four or how many ever best players would be mafia,and the best player in his mind would be the godfather,he wouldnt take the chance of somebody not being able to handle that role.So try thinking like slow and who would be the best in his mind for those roles.lets try that maybe.Any thoughts or am i off base with this

way way off base as roles are random.

[jgordon1111]

hmm,ok thank you for that info Iron,so back to square one with who is most suspicious.

[freezie]

ok most of you have played with each other before and know how who plays to some degree,this is somewhat evident in the discussions,so lets put that aside and think about it from a different angle,slowreactor is the moderator and has played with most of you,from what he knows of each of you and your playing style's, his first mafia game he wouldnt set mafia for an easy kill,the four or how many ever best players would be mafia,and the best player in his mind would be the godfather,he wouldnt take the chance of somebody not being able to handle that role.So try thinking like slow and who would be the best in his mind for those roles.lets try that maybe.Any thoughts or am i off base with this

way way off base as roles are random.

Most generally, they are random. And we can assume they are, but Slow didn't mention anything in the rules about them beeing random or not.

Yet, that is a very, very small detail in the case against someone...

[edocsil]

ok most of you have played with each other before and know how who plays to some degree,this is somewhat evident in the discussions,so lets put that aside and think about it from a different angle,slowreactor is the moderator and has played with most of you,from what he knows of each of you and your playing style's, his first mafia game he wouldnt set mafia for an easy kill,the four or how many ever best players would be mafia,and the best player in his mind would be the godfather,he wouldnt take the chance of somebody not being able to handle that role.So try thinking like slow and who would be the best in his mind for those roles.lets try that maybe.Any thoughts or am i off base with this

way way off base as roles are random.

Most generally, they are random. And we can assume they are, but Slow didn't mention anything in the rules about them beeing random or not.

Yet, that is a very, very small detail in the case against someone...

It goes on a mod by mod basis. I personally do not use a randomizer. That being said, there really isn't a lot that can be gained by analyzing the player/mod interactions.


Also iron, bad analogy. I get the point you are trying to make, but that exact argument can be used in any scenario irregardless of its factuality.

[Iron Butterfly]

ok most of you have played with each other before and know how who plays to some degree,this is somewhat evident in the discussions,so lets put that aside and think about it from a different angle,slowreactor is the moderator and has played with most of you,from what he knows of each of you and your playing style's, his first mafia game he wouldnt set mafia for an easy kill,the four or how many ever best players would be mafia,and the best player in his mind would be the godfather,he wouldnt take the chance of somebody not being able to handle that role.So try thinking like slow and who would be the best in his mind for those roles.lets try that maybe.Any thoughts or am i off base with this

way way off base as roles are random.

Most generally, they are random. And we can assume they are, but Slow didn't mention anything in the rules about them beeing random or not.

Yet, that is a very, very small detail in the case against someone...

It goes on a mod by mod basis. I personally do not use a randomizer. That being said, there really isn't a lot that can be gained by analyzing the player/mod interactions.


Also iron, bad analogy. I get the point you are trying to make, but that exact argument can be used in any scenario irregardless of its factuality.

His argument is a false argument.

The only time Rodion gives advice is to other Mafia therefore anyone he gives advice to must be Mafia.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

hey guys I just had this really long post that took me about an hour to write, and then my sis' shitty computer powered down. I'm too angry to re-write it right now, maybe tomorrow.

unvote for now. I'll justify this when I redo the post.

-Tails

[DoomYoshi]

ok most of you have played with each other before and know how who plays to some degree,this is somewhat evident in the discussions,so lets put that aside and think about it from a different angle,slowreactor is the moderator and has played with most of you,from what he knows of each of you and your playing style's, his first mafia game he wouldnt set mafia for an easy kill,the four or how many ever best players would be mafia,and the best player in his mind would be the godfather,he wouldnt take the chance of somebody not being able to handle that role.So try thinking like slow and who would be the best in his mind for those roles.lets try that maybe.Any thoughts or am i off base with this

way way off base as roles are random.

Most generally, they are random. And we can assume they are, but Slow didn't mention anything in the rules about them beeing random or not.

Yet, that is a very, very small detail in the case against someone...

It goes on a mod by mod basis. I personally do not use a randomizer. That being said, there really isn't a lot that can be gained by analyzing the player/mod interactions.


Also iron, bad analogy. I get the point you are trying to make, but that exact argument can be used in any scenario irregardless of its factuality.

His argument is a false argument.

The only time Rodion gives advice is to other Mafia therefore anyone he gives advice to must be Mafia.

And yet, I didn't vote for you. That should imply that I don't believe the case itself is rock solid. What's the big deal here? You are correct. I will not consider alternatives. In case you forgot, immediately after that happened I posted:

OMG! I am not letting this one slide.

So, if I do consider alternatives, I will be a liar. Since LAL is an established policy and LAPWVFOADU (lynch all players who vote for one and don't unvote) isn't, I am sticking to my guns.

I find it ridiculous that you accuse me of using false logic, yet continuosly distort the truth in your smear campaign against me. The latest distortions of truth are in red below (with responses in blue)

Doom Yoshi you and Rodion are both sharp players. You both argue well. As I said in an ealrlier post truth is a matter of perspective. Because you beleive somthing does not make it true. You out and out contradicted yourself when you misread jgordons post.

O rly? Could you explain how? Does misreading and then admitting a mistake mean I am contradicting myself?

Lets be honest here. You could just as easily be Mafia as Rodion. You have been out to hammer without letup on anyone you seem to find an opening with. You did it with jgordon. Your on Rodion like a laser. Granted Rodion has reason to be questioned.
But you havnt even considered an alternative.

To this point, jgordon has not answered the question I asked him. What more can I say about this? At the time, nothing was going on in the game. I say nothing because a BW against an inactive is exactly that - nothing.

VOTE DOOM YOSHI

First you completely ignore pancakemixs comment to focus on me, which completely contridicts what you are saying.

I don't see the contradiction.

Second and more importantly you are trying to wrap me up in a nice little package for lynching by associating me with another players behavior I have absolutley no control over.

Not quite a distortion, doesn't deserve the red. However, you will only be wrapped up if Rodion flips scum. I should note that I was not the only person to notice the connection between you too.

Correlation Implies Causation

From MafiaWiki

Also known as Ignoring the Common Cause
Often independent factors are used to imply that one action causes another. A famous example is this:
Ice cream sales go up in the summer.
Criminal activity goes up in the summer.
Therefore, the consumption of ice cream is partly responsible for criminal behavior.
(in truth, both actions are predicated by a different factor - increased temperatures)
In a Mafia game, this logical fallacy can be used to create an appearance of guilty behavior about someone else's actions. A common example is using someone's Lurking as evidence that they were avoiding lynching someone of their Faction, or that they were the cause of a missed Night Choice. Frequently, the two actions are instead simultaneous but factually unrelated.

You have played with Rodion in past games.
He only gives advice to other mafia players.
Hence I must be mafia

If this is not a blatent attempt to try and discredit me using false logic then I dont know what is. You know exactly what you are doing and must know this is bullcrap logic.

Great, pick one of the weaker points of my argument and then focus on that. How about addressing the actual scumtells, such as voting for Rodion because you thought it was the cool thing to do?

I should note, for those players who don't know me, that in almost every game I predict the entire mafia faction day 1. I have yet to be correct. Just because I say now that Rodion, Iron and jgordon are the best bets doesn't mean that I have anything in the way of conclusive evidence. However, today Rodion must die. Tomorrow is another day, and we will cross that bridge when we get to it.

Is Victor still in this game?

[slowreactor]

Vote Count

Iron Butterfly (1)- shieldgenerator7
Victor Sullivan (2)- Iliad, Rodion
Rodion (4) - DoomYoshi, edocsil, sheepofdumb, freezie (L-4)
TA1LGUNN3R (1) - Victor Sullivan
DoomYoshi (1) - Iron Butterfly

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

I had to do this really quick so let me know if I got the vote counts wrong.

[wildwilliam]

unvote vote rodin

my vote should be on him, but no matter.

I think rodin is a jailkeeper, but a mafia one. It is an easy claim, because you can potentially prove your powers without having to prove your allegiance. so claim your role, but say you are town.

[Rodion]

Trying to catch up!

1 - Iron, it's not a matter of sarcasm. The question you have to ask yourself is "why should I instantly throw a sarcastic jab at Yoshi when I can wait until he posts and possibly have a decent case against him that will help town catch scum"?

2 - Also, Yoshi's flaw is not of the "correlation does not imply causation" type. It's a problem of induction that is aggravated by the small sample size (consisting of 2 advice given in Zelda, 1 to Dazza and 1 to Killboy).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction

3 - William, I asked you a simple question and you initially raised an invalid objection to buy time to answer it. Threatening is a good way to get things done in a mafia game. For the record, your page 19 post did not answer my question present at the end of page 18.

4 - Yoshi, when you answered "I don't see the contradiction" to Iron, it wasn't really a contradiction but more an inconsistency. Iron defended me and you promptly threatened him (something to the extent of "if Rodion flips scum you're looking to be the target for tomorrow, Iron"). Then PCM defended me and you did not threaten him at all. Iron's claim is that you arbitrarily applied a double standard that "convicted" him and "acquitted" (or simply ignored) PCM.

5 - Tail, I feel it's going to be a smart post.

6 - Just want to point out that Freezie's last "actual" post was from Nov 19, with all 3 latter posts being safe remarks about how a mod determines roles, how people should be more polite and other stuff that can't get him under the spotlight since he is not taking any stance and simply giving out answers much like Swifte in the current official game.

7 - Slow, I think I'm L-3 with a wildwilliam vote you did not tally.

[wildwilliam]

3 - William, I asked you a simple question and you initially raised an invalid objection to buy time to answer it. Threatening is a good way to get things done in a mafia game. For the record, your page 19 post did not answer my question present at the end of page 18.

I do answer your questions. You need to answer the ones posted to you first.

since you like to answer questions with questions I will do the same to you.

Interesting.

How did your delay to answer such a simple question with such a simple answer enhance the town's odds of winning the game?

How did it hurt?

[Rodion]

3 - William, I asked you a simple question and you initially raised an invalid objection to buy time to answer it. Threatening is a good way to get things done in a mafia game. For the record, your page 19 post did not answer my question present at the end of page 18.

I do answer your questions. You need to answer the ones posted to you first.

since you like to answer questions with questions I will do the same to you.

Interesting.

How did your delay to answer such a simple question with such a simple answer enhance the town's odds of winning the game?

How did it hurt?

Your homework now consists of proving that I like to answer questions with questions.

How did it hurt? The longer you take to come up with an answer when the question is blatantly simple, the less trustable your answer is. An instant answer looks more sincere than an answer that was given more than 1 hour later while you stalled, possibly searching the mafia wiki for an asnwer that would not make you seem suspicious.

For the record, I asked you my original question because your reasoning for revoting me was that a jailkeeper role is pointless (and it isn't, especially given what happened in this game), which is something mafia does to cause mislynches (arguing that a town power role is not useful, when the actual thing that has to be pondered is whether that role is a town one or not).

It is hard to catch scum in a question-answer exchange when they buy time to think deeply and avoid scummy answers, so the best way to avoid such an undesirable scenario is to actively threaten them into answering quickly. If they don't answer quickly, the delay should be seen as scummy in itself for the aforementioned reasons.

With that said, FOS Wildwilliam.

[slowreactor]

Vote Count

Iron Butterfly (1)- shieldgenerator7
Victor Sullivan (2)- Iliad, Rodion
Rodion (5) - DoomYoshi, edocsil, sheepofdumb, freezie, wildwilliam (L-3)
TA1LGUNN3R (1) - Victor Sullivan
DoomYoshi (1) - Iron Butterfly

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

[pancakemix]

And yet, I didn't vote for you. That should imply that I don't believe the case itself is rock solid. What's the big deal here? You are correct. I will not consider alternatives. In case you forgot, immediately after that happened I posted:

OMG! I am not letting this one slide.

So, if I do consider alternatives, I will be a liar. Since LAL is an established policy and LAPWVFOADU (lynch all players who vote for one and don't unvote) isn't, I am sticking to my guns.

Um, how would that be lying? At most it would be a change of opinion following careful consideration of the evidence. Conversely, not considering the alternatives just comes off as stubborn. Now, I'm not suggesting you ARE being stubborn, but it looks that way, and it's not helping your argument.

[DoomYoshi]

And yet, I didn't vote for you. That should imply that I don't believe the case itself is rock solid. What's the big deal here? You are correct. I will not consider alternatives. In case you forgot, immediately after that happened I posted:

OMG! I am not letting this one slide.

So, if I do consider alternatives, I will be a liar. Since LAL is an established policy and LAPWVFOADU (lynch all players who vote for one and don't unvote) isn't, I am sticking to my guns.

Um, how would that be lying? At most it would be a change of opinion following careful consideration of the evidence. Conversely, not considering the alternatives just comes off as stubborn. Now, I'm not suggesting you ARE being stubborn, but it looks that way, and it's not helping your argument.

No new evidence has arisen. I have considered other possibilities, but not vocally, and none that I considered correct. Also, it would be lying if I let that one slide... but not the part about considering other alternatives. Only if my consideration takes the form of a vote will it be a lie. This is perhaps a form of stubbornness, but the action paired with a claim, a good case do not make.

Rodion, thank you for correctly identifying the flaw in logic. I knew the logic wasn't perfect, that is mainly why my vote is still where it is.

Wildwilliam, be very careful before you jump into this headfirst. Rodion will argue circles around you.

Shield, where have you gone and why is your vote where it is?

[Victor Sullivan]

Is Victor still in this game?

I am in here like swim gear.

-Sully

[Iliad]

Firstly, I'm sorry for dissapearing, but school is now truly and finally done for good.

Onto to the game, I'm finding Rodion's actions to be pretty inexusable. Here'why.
1)Rolefishing (obviously)
Revealing your mason partner is a very last ditch move to prove your innocence, not the scenario in which sg7/leitz was in. Leitz's bandwagon was mostly developed as joke wagon, but came close to lynching when due to his lurking. It was a fairly typical day case, half accidental and half pressure applied to create discussion. Shieldgenerator was not in a position where he had to give up his mason partner's identity, nor is that the typical procession. Usually if town still is skeptical of the claim, the mason partner also comes out and confirms the mason' claim. Before any discussion developed, while sg was still vulnerable Rodion outright intimidated him into giving up his mason

The only way of confirming your claim is by having your partner exposed, so I guess that will be necessary.

Rodion is well aware of sg's status as a new player and this is fairly textbook manipulation of an inexperienced player as well rolefishing.

Going to sleep now. In case I'm still alive tomorrow, I'll be using numbers and logic to show why this post from Edoc is biased and wrong.

With more to be discussed and no deadline yet implemented, I guess you know what a speedlynch should mean in terms of D2 leads.

The first sentence to me clearly screams; guys, let me just have anotehr day or so to figure out how to explain all of this away.

The second is a usual attempt to indimidate the town into submission, by exaggerating the the negative effects of your lynch.

Rodion's justification is impressively mathematical but utterly irrelevant. It's Rodion attempting to again frame the discussion into a way which would be beneficial to him. Of course in a situation with 5 people, 2 of which scum, you would need to have the mason's claim. It's a LYLO for christ' sake and I'm cynical enough to believe that Rodion knew this and conveniently adopted the scenario. In Rodion's lynchpin 'logical' justification the outing of masons would be not be desirable but necessary instead as well as everyone's claims. In this scenario the town's fate would basically solely rest on whether this claim was true, and whether the town thought it was true.

2) Logical inconsistency
It is the nature of the game, especially on day 1, that town player screw up and give off scum tells. Based on the severity and consequences of this mistake as well as the experience and expected playing ability of the player, these may be excused or forgiven. But a very important thing to note is that Rodion has stuck to his guns and tried to argue that he did rolefish, but it was beneficial for town.

These reasons, or excuses depending on the way you look at it, I'm finding to be pretty flimsy. Most damning however is that it' clear that Rodion himself doesn' believe them, a major red flag.
Observe
1) Rodion has not decided a compromising road, rather agressively justifying outing a town role, fairly typical for his playing style
2) He has displayed an immense displeasure at claiming himself, rather antagonistically.

Way to play like a bunch of retards.

Oh, name's Venser, town jailor (jailkeeper).

For all his posturing and number crunching, Rodion is showing here that he, apparently a town player, understandably does not wish to have his role outed. Not so understandable is his continued insistence that outing edocsil was a positive action for town.
Rodion's justifications are flimsy with good reason, he's adopting them to try and save his own hide.
3) Connection to iron butterfly.
It's been very hard not to spot iron butterfly's continual attempts to take the attention off rodion, mostly by trying to raise a scandal about shield

Let me add this.

SG7 had absolutely no bussiness posting in this game at all. He was not one of the listed plyers yet he makes three unsolicited posts.Then he is allowed to take a roll that is already on the bandwagon to be lynched? Thats messed up.

I do not know the solution but his BS has drasticly affected the game.

Slow Reactor needs to clear this up.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

I could provide more examples, but I'd rather not quote every post iron's made since rodion rolefished.

Also telling

Iron, this is the kind of comment you hold until Yoshi posts. You had a nice chance of catching Yoshi in an inconsistency by waiting to see how he would react to PCM, but once you publicly called him out that immediately got much harder.
For further record, next time an opportunity like this arises you should patiently wait for the person under scrutiny to voice their opinions (or at least post in the thread once, acknowledging he read the post and is simply ignoring it) and only then show the inconsistency (if there is one).

This is Rodion trzing to subtly mentor his relatively inexperienced scumbuddy, Rodion offering direct advice to iron and not simple general advice. Also consider Rodion's adversial and agressive style adopted towards everyone, contrasted by his rather warm attitude.

tl;dr
1) Rodion rolefished, demanded to know another town role when it was unnecesary to do so. Justifications flimsy and outright wrong and misleading in some cases
2)Rodion attempts to argue that the outing of edoc was a net positive, but is a hypocrite and resents having to claim himself, when his own role is fairly marginal and hard to use, showing that he doesn't truly believe his words.
3) Iron's been defending Rodion since he's being attacked, Rodion has attempted to guide and coach iron. Rodion has not claimed any connection to iron, but it's clearly there.

even greater tl;dr Rodion is scum and should be hung, if he is-someone vig iron.

[Iron Butterfly]

Firstly, I'm sorry for dissapearing, but school is now truly and finally done for good.

Onto to the game, I'm finding Rodion's actions to be pretty inexusable. Here'why.
1)Rolefishing (obviously)
Revealing your mason partner is a very last ditch move to prove your innocence, not the scenario in which sg7/leitz was in. Leitz's bandwagon was mostly developed as joke wagon, but came close to lynching when due to his lurking. It was a fairly typical day case, half accidental and half pressure applied to create discussion. Shieldgenerator was not in a position where he had to give up his mason partner's identity, nor is that the typical procession. Usually if town still is skeptical of the claim, the mason partner also comes out and confirms the mason' claim. Before any discussion developed, while sg was still vulnerable Rodion outright intimidated him into giving up his mason

The only way of confirming your claim is by having your partner exposed, so I guess that will be necessary.

Rodion is well aware of sg's status as a new player and this is fairly textbook manipulation of an inexperienced player as well rolefishing.

Going to sleep now. In case I'm still alive tomorrow, I'll be using numbers and logic to show why this post from Edoc is biased and wrong.

With more to be discussed and no deadline yet implemented, I guess you know what a speedlynch should mean in terms of D2 leads.

The first sentence to me clearly screams; guys, let me just have anotehr day or so to figure out how to explain all of this away.

The second is a usual attempt to indimidate the town into submission, by exaggerating the the negative effects of your lynch.

Rodion's justification is impressively mathematical but utterly irrelevant. It's Rodion attempting to again frame the discussion into a way which would be beneficial to him. Of course in a situation with 5 people, 2 of which scum, you would need to have the mason's claim. It's a LYLO for christ' sake and I'm cynical enough to believe that Rodion knew this and conveniently adopted the scenario. In Rodion's lynchpin 'logical' justification the outing of masons would be not be desirable but necessary instead as well as everyone's claims. In this scenario the town's fate would basically solely rest on whether this claim was true, and whether the town thought it was true.

2) Logical inconsistency
It is the nature of the game, especially on day 1, that town player screw up and give off scum tells. Based on the severity and consequences of this mistake as well as the experience and expected playing ability of the player, these may be excused or forgiven. But a very important thing to note is that Rodion has stuck to his guns and tried to argue that he did rolefish, but it was beneficial for town.

These reasons, or excuses depending on the way you look at it, I'm finding to be pretty flimsy. Most damning however is that it' clear that Rodion himself doesn' believe them, a major red flag.
Observe
1) Rodion has not decided a compromising road, rather agressively justifying outing a town role, fairly typical for his playing style
2) He has displayed an immense displeasure at claiming himself, rather antagonistically.

Way to play like a bunch of retards.

Oh, name's Venser, town jailor (jailkeeper).

For all his posturing and number crunching, Rodion is showing here that he, apparently a town player, understandably does not wish to have his role outed. Not so understandable is his continued insistence that outing edocsil was a positive action for town.
Rodion's justifications are flimsy with good reason, he's adopting them to try and save his own hide.
3) Connection to iron butterfly.
It's been very hard not to spot iron butterfly's continual attempts to take the attention off rodion, mostly by trying to raise a scandal about shield

Let me add this.

SG7 had absolutely no bussiness posting in this game at all. He was not one of the listed plyers yet he makes three unsolicited posts.Then he is allowed to take a roll that is already on the bandwagon to be lynched? Thats messed up.

I do not know the solution but his BS has drasticly affected the game.

Slow Reactor needs to clear this up.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

I could provide more examples, but I'd rather not quote every post iron's made since rodion rolefished.

Also telling

Iron, this is the kind of comment you hold until Yoshi posts. You had a nice chance of catching Yoshi in an inconsistency by waiting to see how he would react to PCM, but once you publicly called him out that immediately got much harder.
For further record, next time an opportunity like this arises you should patiently wait for the person under scrutiny to voice their opinions (or at least post in the thread once, acknowledging he read the post and is simply ignoring it) and only then show the inconsistency (if there is one).

This is Rodion trzing to subtly mentor his relatively inexperienced scumbuddy, Rodion offering direct advice to iron and not simple general advice. Also consider Rodion's adversial and agressive style adopted towards everyone, contrasted by his rather warm attitude.

tl;dr
1) Rodion rolefished, demanded to know another town role when it was unnecesary to do so. Justifications flimsy and outright wrong and misleading in some cases
2)Rodion attempts to argue that the outing of edoc was a net positive, but is a hypocrite and resents having to claim himself, when his own role is fairly marginal and hard to use, showing that he doesn't truly believe his words.
3) Iron's been defending Rodion since he's being attacked, Rodion has attempted to guide and coach iron. Rodion has not claimed any connection to iron, but it's clearly there.

even greater tl;dr Rodion is scum and should be hung, if he is-someone vig iron.

I have not been protecting Rodion so much as I wanted to garner as much info as possible before deciding who to vote for. There have been several attempts by players to "coach", "mentor" or call it what you will. Advice from veteren players to new players has been constant. Yoshi has done it. Rodion has done it. Freezie has done it. Your argument is meaningless.

Did you just instruct Town to Night Kill me?

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Can I ask a few questions here? What good is there in shield NOT revealing his partner? And what bad is there if he does? This is an NV game, right? The argument that we're more likely to lose a power role tonight is a fallacy. No shit we're going to lose a power role. On the other hand, if he doesn't tell us and he dies somehow we never know who his mason partner is and lose potential for a townie whose insight we can trust unconditionally.

I put forward that Rodion actually did a GOOD thing by asking for shield's mason partner. I see no reason why he should be persecuted the way he is right now.

Perhaps we can trust them. But that is only one pro we get out of this. What if there is a recruiter? I realize that this is unlikely in a game this size, but it's possible. We then have a scenario where we "trust unconditionally" and it would backfire. Or what if there is a framer, who now have an ideal target as it's likely one of the masons will be targeted for investigation. Or scum busdriver now has two guaranteed replacements, instead of the off chance there's an SK or something. I just generally play my hands close to the chest, because the less info the other team has, the less likely they have of winning.

Stop right there. At the point I asked my question to Shield, he had not named his partner. That means that I could have potentially caught Shield as scum in 2 different manners:

1 - Shield refuses to give a name, suspicion arises after someone (that someone would be me, by the way) threatens to lynch him unless he reveals his partner and yet he refuses to do so. He is lynched for failing to back his original claim.
2 - Shield gives a name and the named player actually denies the liaison. Evident fakeclaim exposed, correct D1 lynch, no questions asked.

Ok but you seem to be missing my point. Mason is a shitty claim for scum, and just shitty in general. If you claim, you pretty much must expose your partner as well, or else you're inviting someone to do just as you did (and this is why I unvoted you in the end of my original post-- I have been arguing that this was an inevitable outcome, so I can understand). Seriously, imo if you fakeclaim mason at any point, it's comparable to White moving f3 and then g4 (Fool's mate). It's just a dumb move.

I guess you could argue that someone would be ballsy enough to fakeclaim with that thought in mind, but shield? He claimed almost spontaneously, with little real provocation (suddenly a wild Qh4 appears... Rodion demands to know the partner's name...duh duh dun). We must remember that the real name of this game is motivation; what motivation is there for each action? Shield is a novice with claim-happy fingers, sure, but do you think he would fakeclaim such a role?

You see, Shield became more likely to be town AFTER he named his partner. My plan's effect was not only to link 2 people (in this case, Shield and Edocsil), but also to see if the failure to have a link established (either by Shield refusing to cooperate or by the claimed partner denying the link) would instantly get Shield lynched.

And how has that worked out for ya? You now have exposed yourself as a direct result, which, if you were truly town, would be undesirable. Sure, jailkeeper is a double-edged sword, but it is protective. Again, playing my hand close, I tend to want to keep this info away from the other side.

It was a risk I thought was worth taking. As far as the doctor bit, they did not have to claim any possible extra roles (cop, doc, whatever), just confirm they share the same alignment for future reference. Edocsil then freaked out and in his meatshield post made it clear that he did not have any other powers, but that can't be put on my tab either.

Conceded.

My role is what my role is.

An my observation is what my observation is. As a fakeclaim, jailkeeper is decent enough. You aren't appealing to the town by claiming doc or cop, which would send off warnings (at least to me), but a difficult role that has little benefit (which means you're appearing more honest). Not only this, if you were scum, you could have one of your scummies corroborate your night actions (although this is a huge risk).

tl;dr I have argued that someone would do it, so I unvoted you for now, but I don't trust you. Motivation, motivation, motivation. What is the motivation?

3) Connection to iron butterfly.
It's been very hard not to spot iron butterfly's continual attempts to take the attention off rodion, mostly by trying to raise a scandal about shield

Upon reading through at this redo, I also noticed that butterfly defended rodion an awful lot, which just adds to his docket. I can't determine if this is scummie defending or defending a townie for brownie points. I'm leaning towards the first as of now, since, as you observed, Rodion seems to guide IB.

-Tails

[DoomYoshi]