Hiroshima - 1945

[koontz1973]

This exchange is short-sighted. We have a Stalingrad map...do y'all have any idea how many millions perished in that brutal assault—the rape, the brutality? No one says a thing.

In any case, the map is completed and I'll post an image later. If you don't like it, don't play it. Pretty simple.

OK, a big difference between these maps are.
Stalingrad = battle.
Hiroshima = slaughter.

What I don't like is the knee-jerk reaction to the "topic", and possibly the direction the foundry is heading, if in fact this is how things are going to be. We need to let people at least develop maps and ideas that can be worked on, rather than totally tear them apart before there is a chance to work out the controversial/offensive natures of the maps.

Seamus, there is no knee jerk reaction to this or your one. It is really a bit of common sense. There are some battles that are battles, this was a lone planes dropping one bomb. Its effects are felt today. There does seem to be a few of these more controversial maps popping up when we have a Melting Pot of ideas full to the brim with good ones.

Those who forget history are destined to repeat it.

Over and over on this map.

But surely there have been much darker hours over the course of humanity

Name one that killed so many in as little time. This is a piece of history that as you said will be debated and while I agree with the US decision to drop the two bombs, I just cannot see a map coming out of a single point in time.

Who's in charge?

lack - the great turtle in the sky. Praise be his wisdom and forgiveness for our sins as we do not want to tarnish the shiny lustre of his shell.

[thenobodies80]

Then can I get approval if I do a map based on nuclear attack and its aftermath that isn't based on Hiroshima or Nagasaki? Something fictional?

Yes it would make it more, really more feasible.
As I said your draft is not shit.
Is the current idea that is totally a bad idea.

Has anyone even looked at the draft VF posted? I think it's actually interesting. Perhaps come up with more game play uniqueness, but I don't see how it's offensive in the least.

Yes, it was the first thing I did when he posted the draft.
I also think that his draft has potential, but Hiroshima is a bad idea to use that draft.

The point of the mods should be to direct the map makers and the foundry in a positive, entertaining direction rather than dictating what will and what should not be attempted.

Is what I'm doing and VF can tell you the same. He has sent me a PM and I gave him a reply yesterday clearly saying him that it was late and I had to give him any other reply today.
Everything else is just bullshit.
Please people stop to explain to us how to do our job, if you want to express your opinion, then it's ok, but speak about the maps not about how you think we should do our job....the foundry has worked in this way and works in this way. If you think you can do it better than me or anyone else is in blue, please apply for that.
I want to remember again to everyone that mapmaking is a privilege not a right. (like when you ask for tournaments privileges).
I was asked to represent "Lackattack voice" when we speak about maps and I acceppted the role, so if you can't live with the idea that the owner of this site won't like this map and I'm telling you this becuase I KNOW THIS, then .....do you want I ask him to come here and post the same? And maybe I can do the same with all map? OMG, there's always someone in life that is there to tell you what you can do or what you can't do. And in this case it's really clear why this map is a bad idea! So, please stop bitching
Mapmaking is a privilege, not a right, it has precise rules and limits, it's not anarchy, and it's in this way because the owner of the site wants it is in this way.

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Now coming back on more constructive things, and trying to speak about maps instead of arguining about how I (and my team) do the job...we can go further.

VF yes, your gameplay is not bad, simply do not use it with hiroshima.
If you say Hiroshima, the people can think just one thing....and it's not a good thought...and you know that it's in this way.

Thank you so much for your collaboration.

[VicFontaine]

Alright. I'll rework it with the same gameplay. There's been some complaints about the gameplay, but I designed it because I would play a map, and love it, with a gameplay like this: EVERY tert is a killer tert with a Russian Winter or a Killer Neutral kind-of-thing. It makes for VERY interesting gameplay, I think, when everyone starts with about 300 men on the board, but by Round 5, we're down to about 40, and by Round 8, we're fighting just to stay alive.

Attrition.

[Industrial Helix]

Definitely interesting imo... kinda like dust bowl. I say go with it, but it doesn't wholly make sense to me as there weren't any armies on the ground at hiroshima, and I'm usually of the opinion that if you're gonna do a historical map, do it so it best reflects actual events. I wonder if going for a sci-fi theme might work better

[VicFontaine]

Definitely interesting imo... kinda like dust bowl. I say go with it, but it doesn't wholly make sense to me as there weren't any armies on the ground at hiroshima, and I'm usually of the opinion that if you're gonna do a historical map, do it so it best reflects actual events. I wonder if going for a sci-fi theme might work better

I've already got (what would be) the most complex CC map in the works, and it's Sci-Fi.

I'd like this one to be historical, so I'm going to go with an alternative-history map a la Harry Turtledove style.

[Peter Gibbons]

But surely there have been much darker hours over the course of humanity

Name one that killed so many in as little time. This is a piece of history that as you said will be debated and while I agree with the US decision to drop the two bombs, I just cannot see a map coming out of a single point in time.

Not sure why I have to name one that killed so many in as little time. The assertion had nothing to do with details like that. The assertion was that it was the darkest hour in humanity--full stop. And it's not. I suspect that if you agree with the US decision to drop the bombs you would also agree with that statement.

By no means I am saying the atomic bombs were a good thing. But surely our "darkest hours" would be constituted by incidents driven by pure evil or unequivocal and completely unjustifiable barbarism. Mass death is not a good thing, but surely reasonable minds can at least concede there were honorable merits that might have justified the action. The same cannot be said of the Holocaust, dozens of attempts at genocide throughout world history, the slave trade and other massacres both big and small.

[Minister X]

If you don't like it, don't play it. Pretty simple.

My two cents: even if this map was done with superb sensitivity to history and the victims, and even if it was a great game to play, I wouldn't want to play it. It's depressing. I'll be spending at least an hour or two staring at a map of one of the worst sights ever to hit human eyes. All the photos I've ever seen of the post-bomb city, with and without survivors, would keep popping into my head. IMHO CC should be a fun place. At least Stalingrad can be studied as a battle, with strategies and tactics, and not just a slaughter.

For the record, I'm not against Truman's decision. I'm grateful the bomb was invented and I think dropping it was the right thing to do. I believe it saved many lives, not only in WWII but also during the cold war that followed hard on its heels.

[natty dread]

Oh yeah, dropping the bomb was the right thing to do but hey I don't want to look at the results, they're depressing. Oh and also we should respect the victims and not make a map about it. Because it was pure slaughter. But yeah, it was the right thing to do.



What the f*ck???????

[Gillipig]

Oh yeah, dropping the bomb was the right thing to do but hey I don't want to look at the results, they're depressing. Oh and also we should respect the victims and not make a map about it. Because it was pure slaughter. But yeah, it was the right thing to do.



What the f*ck???????

Americans look at Hiroshima in the same way I can imagine Germany would've look at the holocaust if they would've won the war. Inhuman but "necessary". Inhuman is never necessary. Just because they would've lost a lot of soldiers trying to defeat Japan in a regular war doesn't make killing more than hundred thousand civilians justifiable. History will always be biased. Because the winner writes it.

[Teflon Kris]

Interesting.

I can't see what happened after the bomb being a setting of interest to people - take over a wasteland?

However, I'm not sure that we should necessarily shy away from the 'darkest hour' (although it certainly wasn't humanity that dropped the bomb). The establishments in which we live don't mind reminding us of nazi atrocities, its certainly worth occassionally remembering this one. In fact, I might suggest it at work, a themed education day, one minutes silence.

If there were some kind of setting that was of interest, some kind of heroism or some kind of positive outcome possible in the theme then it might be a goer. As nobodies says, I just cant see how you can get that kind of spin on one brutal act. Other war settings are brutal but have some kind of inherent idea of defeating a more evil enemy etc., a casue to fight for.

[Industrial Helix]

You know, I'm reading Pompeii by Robert Harris and I was thinking about the mechanics of this map... and it seems to me that Pompeii and Mt. Vesuvius would be a good setting for this type of gameplay... what with the intense heat and sulfur causing decay plus lava obstacles... Volcanos are a lot less controversial than the Bomb too.

[VicFontaine]

Is that historically distant enough that my time would not be wasted? If so, I'll create the map within a few weeks. That would not be hard.

[Industrial Helix]

Pompeii is fair game Hiroshima is not so much.

[IcePack]

I'd play the game either way, hiro or Pompeii. I personally don't see the problem, but if so many people dislike the idea maybe Pompeii is better.

IcePack