Math (Updated 8/11) working on bonuses

[isaiah40]

Though the concept looks like it would be interesting, I believe that this map will be too complicated for the average player. I suggest to simplify it by using equations that most of us can understand as most of us did not major in architecture, physics or any other field that requires knowledge of complicated equations.

I would like to see another update to keep this in the Drafting Room, if not, then unfortunately it will have to be moved to the Recycling Box.

isaiah40

[Gillipig]

Ok I actually made a little update. I made it possible to be 8 players and changed things around a little. I'm particularly looking for feedback regarding if I should aim to make it available for 8 players and if it's better to have starting positions in corners of the map than in the middle. But any feedback is welcome. If you think the previous image was better then please say so.

Red lines are impassables. The names are starting positions. 1 territ on every players part of the map will connect to the E=mc^2 (haven't decided on that yet.). E=mc^2 is the win condition. It's impossible to take out another player. Only way to win is to hold E=mc^2 for one round. This map will have a lot more regions than it has now. It will have dead ends and be much more complicated but this is a first sketch based on each player starting from the middle.

Click image to enlarge.

[Gillipig]

Awesome idea!!!!!!

Though I only understand it 80% * 1.25 / 2 * 4 / 10 + 70% - 60% * 10 / 3
No using a calculator for this problem...!

I like the "Winning equation"

Thanks man!!

[maasman]

Though the concept looks like it would be interesting, I believe that this map will be too complicated for the average player.

Then the average player doesn't have to play it. I'm not a huge fan of a lot of the new maps, but I'm not forced to play them. So whoever this "average" player is, then they can simply ignore this one, as I have done to most maps recently.

[Gillipig]

Though the concept looks like it would be interesting, I believe that this map will be too complicated for the average player.

Then the average player doesn't have to play it. I'm not a huge fan of a lot of the new maps, but I'm not forced to play them. So whoever this "average" player is, then they can simply ignore this one, as I have done to most maps recently.

Logically a map even named math is going to scare away some people. But those who doesn't get scared away probably expects a difficult map since math is generally regarded as something difficult/advanced. So I don't think that's a problem. My goal is to when all is said and done it will be the most strategically complicated map on CC. I don't have it all figured out yet so I can't say how I will turn it into that.
The biggest challenge for me will be to make a map that meet the graphical requirements of the site.

[Industrial Helix]

Thinking as how there's no pressure to get things done quickly in the foundry, I thought I'd give map making another go. I'll try "gimp" this time. Seeing as how most of it looks exactly like Photoshop I understand the symbols gimp use. The map idea is not based on a land territory or some other image. The theme is math. And territs will be named after numbers, letters and other symbols used in math. Bonuses will be holding number, letters and symbols necessary to have different formulas. Such as: a^2+b^2=c^2 and c^2=a^2+b^2-2ab*CosC. For the first one you need a "a^2", "+", "b^2", "=" and "c^2". As for the second one you need what you have in the first one plus "-", "*", 2"ab" and "CosC". Anyone who plays this map will get a math lesson as well. I'll do my best to answer any questions. And before you ask yes I'm fairly good at math ! Not an expert and I'm sure that someone here is better but I'd say I'm better than at least 95%.

Click image to enlarge.

This map is very much in it's first stage and I've not decided much. But here's a list of things I know I want:
It will be about math. duh
Players will have 1 starting position and they will be separated by a lot of neutrals.
The map will be a labyrinth with dead ends.
Gameplay and strategy will be very advanced.
Bonuses and territs will be math inspired.

I suggest changing then title to: Math/Hell.

Because that's exactly what I imagine a map of Hell to look like

[Gillipig]

I'll actually make an update today. (I think)

[Gillipig]

The capital letters in the center of the map are starting positions. Black dots indicate impassables and white dots bordering regions. There's a total of 313 regions, 8 starting positions, each section of the map contains 39 regions. E=mc^2 can be reached through all "=", and can in turn bombard certain parts of other players sections and assault one region in each section (haven't decided which yet). Bonuses will be holding symbols necessary to complete formulas. No win condition. The previous image was a bit too painful to the eye so I made some changes graphic wise. But most importantly I made gameplay altercations. No win condition anymore and sections are no longer completely separated from each other.

Click image to enlarge.

In the next update I will dig into the bonus question. Which bonuses should I use? Where should I place the symbols?
Feel free to voice your opinion.

[shieldgenerator7]

Looks good so far, GP!

One thing I do have to say is you have to be able to position the troop numbers in such a way so that one can tell where they belong but also so that the troop numbers don't cover up the math symbols in the box.

[Flapcake]

Looks good so far, GP!

One thing I do have to say is you have to be able to position the troop numbers in such a way so that one can tell where they belong but also so that the troop numbers don't cover up the math symbols in the box.

Agree, it could be solved by going super size with it

[Gillipig]

Looks good so far, GP!

One thing I do have to say is you have to be able to position the troop numbers in such a way so that one can tell where they belong but also so that the troop numbers don't cover up the math symbols in the box.

Agree, it could be solved by going super size with it

Yes I think we'll need that! Super size is a must when the map has 313 regions. Update coming probably around the middle of next week. If you have any suggestions or input I'm all ears.

[ViperOverLord]

I like this at a glance. I feel CC needs more maps wtih a lot of territories for good ole fashion brou ha ha's.

[Gillipig]

I'm working on a update as we speak. will post it later today.

[Gillipig]

Features:

White dots indicate borders, black dots are impassables.
Each player begins on a single capital letter next to E=Mc^2
"=" can bombard all other sections small single letter regions (a, b, c, e, f, k, m, p, q, v, x, y, but not A, K, L, M etc)
"≈" can assault it's 2 closest neighboring "=". It's the only way a player can advance troops into other sections of the map.
Starting positions can assault E=mc^2. If held for one turn you win the game. (Currently, black dots separate starting positions and E=mc^2 but I will change that in the next update.)

Bonuses:
Parentheses are not part of the formulas.
Each formula is worth as many troops as regions necessary to hold it. It doesn't matter how many a's or 2's or *'s there are in a bonus. You still only need one of each kind. I was first thinking of making advanced formulas award more troops than more simple ones but I didn't find any good way to do that. Let me know if you have any ideas. I'm still very much open for ideas concerning bonuses.

360°=2*pi (6 regions)
lg(a*b)=lg a+lg b (6 regions)
a^2+b^2=c^2 (7 regions)
y=k*x+m (7 regions)
(x^a)*(x^b)=x^(a+b) (7 regions)
sin(pi/3)=(ƒ3)/2 (7 regions)
k=(ƒ(x)-ƒ(2))/(x-2) (7 regions)
y=e^(k*x) (7 regions)
(a^x)*(a^y)=a^(x+y) (7 regions)
(a+b)^2=a^2-2*a*b+b^2 (8 regions)
x^2+p*x+q=0 (9 regions)
x=(-p/2)±√(p/2)*(p/2)-q (10 regions)
c^2=a^2+b^2-2*a*b*cosC (10 regions)
A=(v*pi*r^2)/360 (10 regions)

Mathematical symbols:

Here's a list of the symbols I'm currently using, ordered by how many bonuses they are part of. This should give you an indication of how important different region are. "=" for example is required to hold if you are to get any bonus at all. "*" is required in 11 of them, "2" in 9 etc. The exception is "≈" which does not give any bonus but can assault into other sections.

= (part of all 14 bonuses)
* (part of 11 bonuses)
2 (part of 9 bonuses)
+ (part of 8 bonuses)
^ (part of 8 bonuses)
x (part of 7 bonuses)
a (part of 6 bonuses)
b (part of 5 bonuses)
/ (part of 4 bonuses)
- (part of 4 bonuses)
k (part of 3 bonuses)
pi (part of 3 bonuses)
ƒ (part of 2 bonuses)
360 (part of 2 bonuses)
c (part of 2 bonuses)
y (part of 2 bonuses)
p (part of 2 bonuses)
q (part of 2 bonuses)
√ (part of 1 bonus)
° (part of 1 bonus)
lg (part of 1 bonus)
m (part of 1 bonus)
sin (part of 1 bonus)
3 (part of 1 bonus)
e (part of 1 bonus)
0 (part of 1 bonus)
± (part of 1 bonus)
cos (part of 1 bonus)
A (part of 1 bonus)
v (part of 1 bonus)
r (part of 1 bonus)
> (not part of any bonus)
> (not part of any bonus)
4 (not part of any bonus)
180 (not part of any bonus)
ln (not part of any bonus)
tan (not part of any bonus)
≈ (not part of any bonus)

New map image:

I've distributed regions in a way that makes it hard to acquire bonuses let alone many bonuses. The important region are generally placed in dead ends and far from each other. The thought is that you'll have to think long and hard before you start taking regions. I decided to place some army numbers out there as well. Note that all are 3's except "≈" and"=" who are 5's. The staring position (L) is in slightly different colour. It will not have any autodeploy. E=mc^2 has not been given an amount of neutrals yet but it will be a high number.

Click image to enlarge.

Walkthrough:

Let me guide you through how I would play this map if I where to play it now:
The first choice is between "ln" and ">", both are worthless regions but I would take ">" to be able to take "p" next turn. "p" is not particularly good but it gives me a chance to take "2" next turn which is one of the best regions. From "2" I would take the worthless territ "4" to be able to take "q" which I want because "p" and "q" share 2 bonuses. I would then of course take "=". I then figured out which bonus I want to aim for. x=(-p/2)±√(p/2)*(p/2)-q. I already have "=", "p", "q", "2" and "±" and "-" are very close to where I am now. So I would take "±" and "-" and then reinforce back to "=". To get a bonus of 10 I now only need to hold "x", "/", "√" and "*". Unfortunately I'll have to take down 12 more territs to get all of them because they are very spread out. It looks like I made a mistake going for that particular bonus.
First game on this map shouldn't be a walk in the park. I want my map to be difficult! I want it to be the most difficult map to master and almost require a bit of chess like planning. Players will also have to take into consideration the win condition, the possibility of bombarding other players and advance into other sections, enemy or neutral sections. I think neutral values, bonuses and location of symbols are the three most important means to make this map balanced and excruciating difficult !

[natty dread]

There's such a concept in game design as "artificial difficulty".

Normally, when you want to design a good game, and you want it to be challenging, you come up with things that genuinely challenge the player. For example, for a platform game, you could have a part where you have to make very precise jumps and grab a mushroom on the fly in a fraction of a second... that'd be a fair challenge.

Then there's artificial difficulty... a lazy programmer could, for example, create more challenge by creating levels with traps that you have no way of anticipating, so that you have no choice but to play the level over and over again and memorize the traps, or he could make the controls so stiff and unresponsive that they make it hard to perform the required actions... this would also add challenge to the game, but it wouldn't be a fair challenge, and it would frustrate the players. And it makes for a bad game.

Here, you say you want to make "a difficult map", which is fine as a goal. There are plenty of difficult maps that are good. But the way you're going at it is all wrong. You're creating artificial difficulty by making the bonuses and gameplay structure hard to figure out. In other words, the challenge is not in figuring out the perfect strategy for the map, the challenge is figuring out how the damn map works. The rules of the map should be clear for every player, everyone should be able to figure out which territories give what bonus without writing a thesis about it. That's not where the challenge should be. The challenge should be in figuring out a good strategy to utilize those bonuses.

So you want to create a complex, challenging map, that's fine, but you can't do it by intentionally obfuscating the gameplay structure so that it's hard to figure out what does what. That's just artificial difficulty and it makes for sucky gameplay. The correct way to go is to make the gameplay as clear as possible to everyone, and find other ways to create challenge for the players.

[MoB Deadly]

There's such a concept in game design as "artificial difficulty".

Normally, when you want to design a good game, and you want it to be challenging, you come up with things that genuinely challenge the player. For example, for a platform game, you could have a part where you have to make very precise jumps and grab a mushroom on the fly in a fraction of a second... that'd be a fair challenge.

Then there's artificial difficulty... a lazy programmer could, for example, create more challenge by creating levels with traps that you have no way of anticipating, so that you have no choice but to play the level over and over again and memorize the traps, or he could make the controls so stiff and unresponsive that they make it hard to perform the required actions... this would also add challenge to the game, but it wouldn't be a fair challenge, and it would frustrate the players. And it makes for a bad game.

Here, you say you want to make "a difficult map", which is fine as a goal. There are plenty of difficult maps that are good. But the way you're going at it is all wrong. You're creating artificial difficulty by making the bonuses and gameplay structure hard to figure out. In other words, the challenge is not in figuring out the perfect strategy for the map, the challenge is figuring out how the damn map works. The rules of the map should be clear for every player, everyone should be able to figure out which territories give what bonus without writing a thesis about it. That's not where the challenge should be. The challenge should be in figuring out a good strategy to utilize those bonuses.

So you want to create a complex, challenging map, that's fine, but you can't do it by intentionally obfuscating the gameplay structure so that it's hard to figure out what does what. That's just artificial difficulty and it makes for sucky gameplay. The correct way to go is to make the gameplay as clear as possible to everyone, and find other ways to create challenge for the players.

This has been my standpoint from Day 1. Natty couldn't of said it in a better way.

Math is concrete and doesn't change. So someone, anyone, whoever studies the map the longest will figure out the proper way to gain the biggest bonus for the least amount of risked troops. At that point, all other less experienced players will be farmed. It will be EXTREMELY tough to balance this, and to ensure that there are multiple viable strategies, hopefully in a way that 1 strategy isn't the best clear cut strategy.

[Rih0]

just some ideas, if you reply or not i wont check anyway

E=mc² is mostly physics than math.
its nice if you go for units of measure if you want to increase the territory count, even the ones we dont use mostly.
you should work with the notion of micro, mili, kilo, mega, giga, etc.

[Gillipig]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll see what I can do to make it more easily understandable. Math requires a lot of repetition so don't want it to be super clear the first time. One thing that I've thought about is to make each sections region placements unique. Making some bonuses harder to get in some sections than in others. While still maintaing a fair and balanced gameplay though.

[Dukasaur]

just some ideas, if you reply or not i wont check anyway

E=mc² is mostly physics than math.
its nice if you go for units of measure if you want to increase the territory count, even the ones we dont use mostly.
you should work with the notion of micro, mili, kilo, mega, giga, etc.

I understand why he put E=MC^2 in the centre; he wanted a famous equation as the centrepiece, and you're right: it is more physics than math. I think the most famous genuinely mathematical equation is the Perfect Pythagorean: 3^2+4^2=5^2. That's what I'd use as my centrepiece.

Then, all the bonuses could be variations on a Pythagorean theme (that includes all trigonometry, which at its core is based on the Pythagorean theme, and a whole lot more.) I think it's about as much math as the average player can wrap his head around. I wouldn't go any more complex than that.

[Gillipig]

just some ideas, if you reply or not i wont check anyway

E=mc² is mostly physics than math.
its nice if you go for units of measure if you want to increase the territory count, even the ones we dont use mostly.
you should work with the notion of micro, mili, kilo, mega, giga, etc.

I understand why he put E=MC^2 in the centre; he wanted a famous equation as the centrepiece, and you're right: it is more physics than math. I think the most famous genuinely mathematical equation is the Perfect Pythagorean: 3^2+4^2=5^2. That's what I'd use as my centrepiece.

Then, all the bonuses could be variations on a Pythagorean theme (that includes all trigonometry, which at its core is based on the Pythagorean theme, and a whole lot more.) I think it's about as much math as the average player can wrap his head around. I wouldn't go any more complex than that.

Pythagoras theorem is probably the most well known regular math formula. And It's a much more complex formula then one first realize, however it not as well known or as all including as E=mc^2. I don't see a reason as to why Pythagoras theorem would be more than just a bonus on this map so I'm going to keep it as that.

[thenobodies80]

viewtopic.php?f=241&t=105183

Player-friendliness - Any information you need to know to play a map should be easy to gather by looking at the map itself. The legend should be clear, concise and consistent; the map itself should be free of unnecessary or cumbersome rules that push it over the line separating complex from confusing.

As natty_dread said, right now this map is not clear. You can do a math map if there's support for it, but everyone, also the dumbest player should be able to understand how it works even knowing zero about math.

On this site the only thing you should know to play are the rule of the game, please don't add extra rules/requirements, please don't develope farming maps, that's all.

Btw please update your first post with a complete draft (territs names, bonuses, legend, etc) --> viewtopic.php?f=649&t=150681&p=3292843#p3292837

Nobodies

[thenobodies80]

[Moved]

It would appear that development of this map has stalled. If the mapmaker wants to continue with the map, then one of the Foundry Moderators will be able to help put the thread back into the Drafting Room, after an update has been made.