Dark Continent (Colonial Africa) [Quenched]

[tokle]

i continue to push for egypt to be split into four regions and given an ottoman bonus instead of british (since egypt was an autonomous part of the ottoman empire up to 1914).

If Egypt was it's own bonus I'd split it up but it's not. Also all the maps I've looked at place Egypt as a British colony at that time.

egypt was never part of the british empire. even when the british put in power someone they thought would be a friendly ruler, egypt continued to be part of the ottoman empire.
While this is technically true, the situation was not that simple (as they never are...). Most maps from the west would colour egypt in with the British Empire, though.
It is also a point that Egypt was de facto independent from Constantinopel for a while before the British and French started interferring there.

cartographers often did their best to show an unusual situation. bartholomew 1914, for instance, had egypt as ottoman green to show ottoman sovereignty, but with a british pink inner glow to signify british "protection". compare with solid italian yellow libya and solid french purple tunis for colonies formally annexed to these empires.

http://www.mapseeker.co.uk/world-maps-p ... B=b4#phead

i'm seeking to give a reason for the ottoman empire to exist on the map, failing which we really ought to remove the arabian pensinsula for being non-african. egypt is currently the nearest thing in africa to an ottoman possession in 1913 that we can find, other than the fictional ottoman somaliland, which was actually french.

ian.

I agree. The Ottomans are a bit out of place in this context.
Another interesting complication here was the situation in Sudan, which was technically an Egyptian colony, but not part of the Ottoman Empire. But I guess that would be too complicated to include in a map like this.

[The Bison King]

Ok, given the the fact that we can't even decide who owned egypt 100 years later, I'm thinking the best course of action is to reinstate Egypt as a disputed territory between Britain and the Ottomans.

And yes I NEED the Ottoman empire, because I need there to be 8 colonial players otherwise in 8 player games someone gets royally screwed. Yes, The Ottomans lost most of their African claims at this point in history but they had them at one point and probably wanted them back. They were a colonial power at the time so I think it's justified, especially if we split Egypt again.

[iancanton]

now we're starting to make some progress!

Maybe Egypt should be its own bonus, additive to either Britain or Ottoman, with British East Africa suitably reduced in value.

a decent british-and-ottoman egyptian bonus, not counting toward british east africa, looks good to me.

you could extend the Ottoman borders to cut in between A.H. and Greece, like the borders of the Ottoman Empire looked before the balkan wars.

I think the term Balkan Peninsula is entirely appropriate. You may be stretching its northern border, but when I hear that name I know where to look.

either of these will work.

africa on the main map is relatively small and u're pushed for room to fit in some of the names. can u try stretching africa sideways and lose a bit of ocean (or scaling-up to lose scotland, denmark and northern russia as well as some ocean)?

ian.

[tokle]

Libya could be considered Ottoman too.
And if you want to add a bit more complexity, you could have Abyssinia as an additional bonus for the Italians. For even though they didn't invade it untill the 30's they did have designs on it a lot earlier than that. The idea of an Italian Empire was ingrained in the Italian psyche as early as the late nineteenth century.

And Aden should be British, should it not?

[The Bison King]

Ok I'm re-instating Egypt as a disputed territory for now. However there's something else I want to try in a minute.

you could have Abyssinia as an additional bonus for the Italians. For even though they didn't invade it untill the 30's they did have designs on it a lot earlier than that. The idea of anItalian Empire was ingrained in the Italian psyche as early as the late nineteenth century.

Interesting, that's interesting

And Aden should be British, should it not?

Uh, maybe? I guess so, I'd probably just make it neutral before I give Britain another spot though, they already have a bit of an edge.

[tokle]

And Aden should be British, should it not?

Uh, maybe? I guess so, I'd probably just make it neutral before I give Britain another spot though, they already have a bit of an edge.

You have it down as Ottoman, though. Which would be incorrect.
What does it matter if the British have a bit of an edge? It's not like the British player gets to start with all the British terits. This was the height of British power after all, they were ruling the waves.

You should change the German, Italian and Spanish flags to the period ones.

show

[The Bison King]

Ok here's some idea's I've been tossing around all thrown together on one draft to see what you think.

#1) I added Cape town. that's just kind of whatever.

#2)I made Congo an Isolated French territory, +0 alone +1 with France.

#3)I added the Suez Canal as a territory. It adds +1 to either the Ottoman or British bonuses in the region.

[The Bison King]

And Aden should be British, should it not?

Uh, maybe? I guess so, I'd probably just make it neutral before I give Britain another spot though, they already have a bit of an edge.

You have it down as Ottoman, though. Which would be incorrect.
What does it matter if the British have a bit of an edge? It's not like the British player gets to start with all the British terits. This was the height of British power after all, they were ruling the waves.

You should change the German, Italian and Spanish flags to the period ones.

show

[ender516]

What if Egypt, Suez and Aden were together a disputed bonus for Britain and Ottoman?

[Gillipig]

Remember to change leopoldville's flag next time. It looks like Romanias flag. Blue, yellow and red instead of black, yellow and red. It's a nail in the eye for me !

[The Bison King]

Remember to change leopoldville's flag next time. It looks like Romanias flag. Blue, yellow and red instead of black, yellow and red. It's a nail in the eye for me !

Something must be wrong with your monitor. It's black.

[natty dread]

It is actually blue. I checked it with the colour picker, it's 595f75 in hex...

[The Bison King]

It's slightly transparent, and picking up on the blue background.

[iancanton]

#1) I added Cape town. that's just kind of whatever.

#2)I made Congo an Isolated French territory, +0 alone +1 with France.

#3)I added the Suez Canal as a territory. It adds +1 to either the Ottoman or British bonuses in the region.

adding cape town is a good move, although making it cape province will be even better. try to fit in the four provinces of south africa, which were cape province (increase the size of the current cape town region accordingly), natal (currently called zululand) with a mozambique border, transvaal and orange free state. the borders of the four provinces in the map below are well-known because they stayed virtually static till the 1990s.

http://v1.sahistory.org.za/pages/places ... nsvaal.htm

i'm undecided about splitting off congo, which might work. u've spoiled it a bit, however, by inventing artificial borders for cameroon for no apparent reason. also, call congo something different (for example, gabon), so that it's not confused with belgian congo. the style of bonus u have here (+0 without and +1 with france) can be usefully-employed for unified single-region bonuses for each of madagascar and somalia.

why not make the whole of egypt a 4-region ottoman-or-british bonus? suez canal is a decent step toward this, while splitting the rest of egypt into alexandria, cairo and luxor can be another. the presence of the nile makes things awkward, so u can erase it, since (unlike the river congo) the nile wasn't a barrier or border, but actually an aid to transport, being the only sensible north-south route through egypt.

i'm seeing potential difficulties in team games, especially triples and quads, where an obvious strategy is to kill the opposing team's european auto-deploys right at the start. a possible solution is to allow all european powers to attack each other only through a neutral region called "the great war" (or "first world war" or something similar) that they all border.

ian.

[ender516]

We could also take a page from the New World notebook, and force all European powers to go through the African territories to attack each other, but I don't mind the "Great War" territory idea.

[The Bison King]

To IanCanton (in general) you have to realize that that most of your suggestions center around reducing the amount of territories for most colonial powers (Belgium, Italy, France) while increasing the amount of territories for Britain. I recognize that historically Britain was the most powerful player in the "colonization" of Africa but for gameplay reasons I can't just make it so that whoever starts with Britain has a 60% chance of winning the game. Or really it stands just as likely a case of doing the opposite, if Britains bonuses become too large and cumbersome to be held. Either way it's a matter of trying to keep Britain balanced with the other players

I'm trying to look at this from an extremely practical view point while you are looking at things purely historically. It is entirely my map making philosophy that a map makers primary focus should be creating a fun playable map, rather than getting hung up on specific minor historical details (think of me as a smutty hollywood producer who casts Russle Crow to be an hardcore ass kicking Robin Hood). You're giving a lot of really good insight and advice and I appreciate that, but I want you to see where I am coming from when I turn down an idea. I am seeing a lot of the same suggestions coming from you 2-3 times.

adding cape town is a good move, although making it cape province will be even better. try to fit in the four provinces of south africa, which were cape province (increase the size of the current cape town region accordingly), natal (currently called zululand) with a mozambique border, transvaal and orange free state. the borders of the four provinces in the map below are well-known because they stayed virtually static till the 1990s.

This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Yes that's what the map looked like, that's what "technically right" but that is a HORRIBLE bonus structure IMO. I don't want there to be 3 borders crammed into the bottom and 1 at the top. I feel like that forces the British player to move into the Portugese bonus whether any one likes it or not. Besides that would make things pretty cramped down there.

i'm undecided about splitting off congo, which might work. u've spoiled it a bit, however, by inventing artificial borders for cameroon for no apparent reason.

I don't know what you are talking about Camaroons border is more accurate than it's ever been:

Notice how "Kamerun's border reaches down to Belgian Congo, seperating Gabon from the rest of Frances claims

Calling Gabons not a bad idea though.

the style of bonus u have here (+0 without and +1 with france) can be usefully-employed for unified single-region bonuses for each of madagascar and somalia.

You've mentioned this before, my answer is NO. France needs Madagascar as a small-mid sized bonus so that it has something other that the West Sahara which is too big to try and take initially. Italy as well needs Somalia to be 2 territories to compete with larger European threats.

why not make the whole of egypt a 4-region ottoman-or-british bonus?

The biggest reason is that there isn't enough room.

suez canal is a decent step toward this, while splitting the rest of egypt into alexandria, cairo and luxor can be another.

Again this is just an ackward bonus structure. Alexandria Cairo and the Suez canal are all crammed in the very very very north of Egypt. There just isn't enough room! not to mention that that makes Luxor (the most insignificant territory historically) fill up the bottom 3/4ths of the bonus by default which just doesn't make sense.

the presence of the nile makes things awkward, so u can erase it, since (unlike the river congo) the nile wasn't a barrier or border, but actually an aid to transport, being the only sensible north-south route through egypt.

I like the presence of the Nile as an impassable though I see your point about transport.

i'm seeing potential difficulties in team games, especially triples and quads, where an obvious strategy is to kill the opposing team's european auto-deploys right at the start. a possible solution is to allow all european powers to attack each other only through a neutral region called "the great war" (or "first world war" or something similar) that they all border.

ian.

I'm not seeing that as a solution since they could just do exactly what you said through that one territory. Enders solution of making European territories attackable only through Landing territories makes more sense. Though I'm not sure if if I like that or think it's necessary.


Look, I know I may come across as obstinate or resistant to change but that's just how I am. I take in suggestions but I implement them slowly, not at all, or in subtle subdued ways. I know how I want this to play and at times that can be at odds with want you want to do in terms of making this a historical representation of colonialism in Africa. I'll consider what you suggested about Egypt. I'll play around with it and see if I can make it work, and more importantly, if I like it. No promises though.

[The Bison King]

Well in my typical fashion I've resisted an idea endlessly then tried it and decided it's not such a bad idea. It's not exactly as you laid it out Ian but the general concepts are the same. I haven't decided what Egypt should be worth yet though.

[iancanton]

egypt will be much easier to value (and explain in the legend) if it's a totally separate bonus from british east africa. it can then be the same value whether it belongs to the british or ottoman player. i'd link suez to luxor directly (either through changing the cairo border or by adding a sea route), so that the suez canal actually "goes" somewhere, aiding rather than hindering reinforcement of troops.

rather than that strange-looking arm of transvaal reaching the sea, use the end of the limpopo river to divide zululand from mozambique. the limpopo was not the real border, but it was close to the border and doesn't look so artificial.

I can't just make it so that whoever starts with Britain has a 60% chance of winning the game. Or really it stands just as likely a case of doing the opposite, if Britains bonuses become too large and cumbersome to be held. Either way it's a matter of trying to keep Britain balanced with the other players

while we do have to be careful to ensure that the bonus structure doesn't lead to the british player winning 50% more than any other, u already recognise that more regions in a bonus can actually be a disadvantage. view the third crusade map to see how kabanellas dealt with some capitals having access to more bonuses than others while keeping the whole map balanced.

It is entirely my map making philosophy that a map makers primary focus should be creating a fun playable map, rather than getting hung up on specific minor historical details (think of me as a smutty hollywood producer who casts Russle Crow to be an hardcore ass kicking Robin Hood).

my best advice here is for you to change the primary title of the map, which currently suggests a straight historical depiction. call it old world, dark continent or something else which lets u throw off the straitjacket of history to put ur own slant on things without endless complaints from history buffs. the new world map is an excellent example of what can be achieved by not purporting to be historical, without numerous posts from players about dutch argentina being wrong.

ian.

[The Bison King]

Sorry for the Break guys!

egypt will be much easier to value (and explain in the legend) if it's a totally separate bonus from british east africa.

Yes agreed, and that's how I intended it to be I just didn't bother updating the legend yet.

i'd link suez to luxor directly (either through changing the cairo border or by adding a sea route), so that the suez canal actually "goes" somewhere, aiding rather than hindering reinforcement of troops.

Agreed completely.

rather than that strange-looking arm of transvaal reaching the sea, use the end of the limpopo river to divide zululand from mozambique. the limpopo was not the real border, but it was close to the border and doesn't look so artificial.

Again sounds good to me.

my best advice here is for you to change the primary title of the map, which currently suggests a straight historical depiction. call it old world, dark continent or something else which lets u throw off the straitjacket of history to put ur own slant on things without endless complaints from history buffs

I'm ok with this. In fact I would be really fond of the name "The Dark Continent" I'm worried that it would spark controversy since it's such an antiquated imperialistic name for the continent. However that's why I think it would be such a fitting name. It just conjures up the image of Wealthy aristocratic noblemen, smoking cigars and carving out territories on a map of places they've never been, and talking about the resistance of the native cultures.

So I think I might do that. Or rather change the name to The Colonization of The Dark Continent (though on the map page it would probably just show as Dark Continent.



Also another thought. I think I want to super size this. I need more room in the legend to cram all these bonuses into it. It'll just look better. Do I have a choice of dimensions or can I make my own. Also what is the ratio between the small and the large maps?

[Gillipig]

Why do you have different types of mountains? It would look better if you just had one!

[The Bison King]

Why do you have different types of mountains? It would look better if you just had one!

Well some of them are supposed to be sand dunes

[isaiah40]

Also another thought. I think I want to super size this. I need more room in the legend to cram all these bonuses into it. It'll just look better. Do I have a choice of dimensions or can I make my own. Also what is the ratio between the small and the large maps?

Sorry, I totally overlooked this. It is best that you go a supersize version so I can look at it. As for the ratio it can be found in the [Official] Conquer Club Mapmaker Handbook under General Rules.

[natty dread]

Personally I think the best ratio is 7:10 - 8:10, in other words small should be between 70-80% of the size of the large.

[Teflon Kris]

The graphics are coming along very nicely

[The Bison King]

Thanks for checking in guys, sorry I took another unofficial vacation : / but I feel like the gameplay is pretty much how I want it, maybe a few more tweeks here and there. So if you have anymore gameplay suggestions please bring them up soon, because I want to turn my attention to graphics. I need to apply for the super size, blow this bad boy up, clean up the lines, then make the legend and titles Aweesome instead of completely lame.

Click image to enlarge.

In this update I:
I connected Suez to Luxor, made an impassable between Zululand and Lourenco Marues, I changed the bonus worth's of Egypt, British East, and Belgian Congo, and finally I added a sea route connecting Portugual to the cannary islands.