[ACC Round 2] 1st Reg. v. AOD [25-24] of 51pts - Final

[Agent 86]

Yeah, why are AOD so spiteful..We have not done anything to warrant this attack against us. We do play fair and always will, this clan doesn't like it's rep being put this way..come on !! We joined for fun and have always tried to rectify any situation. DJ is the tourney organizer and is doing a sterling job. Why all this bad mouthing against us and DJ, AOD..still respect you guys but you are starting to irritate everyone.

As it turns out Pap is still missing and this was not like him at all and the whole clan is very worried that something may have happened to him

86

[jpcloet]

Yeah, why are AOD so spiteful..We have not done anything to warrant this attack against us. We do play fair and always will, this clan doesn't like it's rep being put this way..come on !! We joined for fun and have always tried to rectify any situation. DJ is the tourney organizer and is doing a sterling job. Why all this bad mouthing against us and DJ, AOD..still respect you guys but you are starting to irritate everyone.

As it turns out Pap is still missing and this was not like him at all and the whole clan is very worried that something may have happened to him

86

We had a player disappear for 3 months, but fortunately he came back.

Overall your clan has played well and been a good opponent. Your leader has been a pain in the ass from the beginning to deal with though, and has not been very organized. It is ok to do that in a war, but for a tournament, it is quite poor. I have mostly used facts (eg not showing up to games, war thread missing games, originally delivery of games was missing games). DJ was very light on your clan in terms of penalties.

Your leader did not attempt to rectify any situation, and immediately declared a victory in poker and the war. That is the sticking point, and that arrogance is what set off most of my team. I gave DJ several options and he chose one of the least fair ones and didn't thoroughly review any of the games as you can tell from his multiple decision posts. You can call it bad mouthing, however, the facts are you did show up late, did break the fog rule etc. That is not an opinion, those are facts.

[kennys777]

Hey, I was wondering if we can have another "re-do" or "do-over"...I didn't like the way this one turned out!

[Teflon Kris]

the facts are you did show up late, did break the fog rule etc. That is not an opinion, those are facts.

12 Hour FOW Rule
[list]The rule here is indeed not very specific, as pointed-out. I naively expected it to be understood as being in relation to putting the opposition at a knowlege disadvantage.

The CLA interpretation is what was intended (will be clarified to all for next round).

This means
either:

(a) Wait 12 hours

(b) Declare any attacks on the opposition and all relevant region information for regions 'thrown into the fog'

or:
(c) Drop and fort or just attack a neutral and fort, thereby leaving an snapshot situation for the opposition after the turn as it would have been before.

However much we debate this, it is hard to see how GG have put AOD at a knowlege disadvantage in games mentionned (they have undertaken option (c)).

The whole debate and complaints against GG began due to a perceived advantage due to a deadbeat in a no spoils game. The advantage turned out to be a disadvantage for GG. Subsequently, in good faith it was incorrectly assumed by me that claims of GG breaking the FOW rule were incorrect. On analysis they were not (see above).

Yes, the penalty for showing-up late (random home games, random players) was not implemented at the time, and cannot be restrospectively implemented. This is partly my error and partly due to a significant portion of the clan community being slow and thereby making implementing this rule in half of the matches unmanageable. Heavy-handed-ness by myself over the slow-ness issue may have threatened the viability of the tournament (e.g. a number of slow clans spitting their dummies out and withdrawing). Hopefully the issue of slowness can be addressed at a higher level in the near future. The issue iwith slowness is not about one clan gaining an advantage over another, it is merely about ensuring the rest of the clan community is not frustrated in tournament situations.

Nonetheless, GG gained no advantage in any of the situations AOD complained about.

As a result of GG's only infraction (being late), both clan leaders agreed to void the Poker Club game and play a random game instead.

This appears to have backfired for AOD as they would have won the original game and have lost the replay.

[jpcloet]

The whole debate and complaints against GG began due to a perceived advantage due to a deadbeat in a no spoils game. The advantage turned out to be a disadvantage for GG. Subsequently, in good faith it was incorrectly assumed by me that claims of GG breaking the FOW rule were incorrect. On analysis they were not.

It did not start there, I filled your inbox plenty when they didn't deliver all their games, and then proceeded to fill them slowly. That is your interpretation of the FOW rule which was generic.

Yes, the penalty for showing-up late (random home games, random players) was not implemented at the time, and cannot be restrospectively implemented.

This is partly my error and partly due to a significant portion of the clan community being slow and thereby making implementing this rule in half of the matches unmanageable.

Sounds like a big lesson learned. The second part was never communicated to me when the issue was raised by me originally, so there is another error on your part. It looked like you were being light on GG, when really you had a bigger problem to deal with.

As a result of GG's only infraction (being late), both clan leaders agreed to void the Poker Club game and play a random game instead.

I was forced into that agreement as you inferred an agreement, because you would not void the game and use the tie-breaker. I should really talk to the lawyer in the room. So now you say you cannot retroactively agree to make a random game with random players for the late games, but will do it for one game but not randomize the players. Talk about inconsistencies.

This appears to have backfired for AOD as they would have won the original game and have lost the replay.

That game is not over yet and you are already calling it a loss. You are jumping to conclusions again. Someone with your experience really should know better, considering you already did that in this discussion. We may be losing, but it is not lost yet. I still maintain you should be voiding Poker and using the tie-breaker as the Poker game that was corrupted, perceived advantage or not.

[Teflon Kris]

That is your interpretation of the FOW rule which was generic.

Its the interpretation in the CLA forum. Is there a more specific version somewhere else that anyone would assume we are using here? The CLA 'interpretation' is thought-out and covers the situations whereby an advantage is gained. It applies in this tournament, no advantage was gained, no break of rule.

I was forced into that agreement as you inferred an agreement, because you would not void the game and use the tie-breaker. I should really talk to the lawyer in the room. So now you say you cannot retroactively agree to make a random game with random players for the late games, but will do it for one game but not randomize the players. Talk about inconsistencies.

There was no need to do anything as far as the rules were concerned. You weren't forced into the agreement. You could have done nothing. This was the only suggestion by both clan leaders that was practical, other than doing nothing, which I could have insisted upon as no rules were broken (apart from slowness, from which GG gained no advantage).

This appears to have backfired for AOD as they would have won the original game and have lost the replay.

That game is not over yet and you are already calling it a loss. You are jumping to conclusions again. Someone with your experience really should know better, considering you already did that in this discussion. We may be losing, but it is not lost yet. I still maintain you should be voiding Poker and using the tie-breaker as the Poker game that was corrupted, perceived advantage or not.

The tie-breaker game is only relevant if scores are equal. There is otherwise no tie to break.

[jpcloet]

Score would be tied if Poker was void. That's why I mentioned it, I wasn't so clear about that. My communication bad.

[kennys777]

Oh, and Poker Room is almost over, not looking like GG's game anymore, this is what happens when big traps don't know how to stay shut!!!

Still cracks me up that GG declaring a win in this game is what caused all this drama, and they were NEVER even close to winning! It is even funnier that all the people associated with calling this game over/void/null/non-existent were not even in the game and since it was a fog game, they could only see territory counts...Well I guess all of those people I am referring too do not know Poker Room very well, as the game is much different in quads form than 1v1...

Just to clarify what this post is about....GG is NOT winning Poker Room (the original VALID game of this tourney)...

How does a valid game become invalid in a tourney anyway? Especially 11 rounds into it? OH yeah, I forgot, forget I asked!

[Teflon Kris]

Score would be tied if Poker was void.

I thought the score was 23-22 and poker / poker-replay game counts for 2 points. So a tie isn't possible, is it?

[Teflon Kris]

How does a valid game become invalid in a tourney anyway? Especially 11 rounds into it? OH yeah, I forgot, forget I asked!

Mutual agreement between the leaders.

[jefjef]

All drama aside it sure looks like 1st reg played one heck of a set.

[Ickyketseddie]

Thanks very much Jefjef. We've come along way lately!

The first set was brilliant but AOD fought back so hard in the 2nd!! We need to get better at closing out after good starts! lol

[Agent 86]

What can I say, we were given no chance against AOD and warranted. We are a new clan relatively speaking and this was a war which had everything that you could wish for..so close in the end. It's still not decided as I speak, but if 1st Reg get the win we will be happy with the respect that we are fighting to get. I understand the problems that have occurred and everyone is allowed their opinion on this. We hope that if we win AOD will still respect us and most importantly the tourney organizer ( DJ ) who has spent many hours trying to work out all of the myriad problems that was faced.

It's not over yet as the game is escalating..if we win fantastic, if we lose we are happy knowing that we are now very competitive..the future is bright for 1RFG

My final post..GL to the winner !!

[General Brock II]

edit: Kenny, you play Axis and Allies? Have your own? How large is your collection? I've amassed a nicely sized English army, but I can't acquire a decent German force for relatively cheaply... Always get these rubbish pieces who were "Axis" but not hardened German forces.

Are you talking the "new" A&A? miniatures? There are some nice pieces available here in Chicago, but I mainly play Xeno World at War with generic pieces. Miniatures I have had a nice collection in Blood Bowl and WarHammer, but nothing anymore...I can't find any decent places to play, so I gave up all my miniatures before I went to Hawaii.

Yeah, "new" A&A. I couldn't stomache the old type. lol It wasn't impressive at all. No decent places to play in Hawaii? I had a friend who played Pirates of the Revolution (and so on... it's a constructable strategy tabletop game with ships) all the time with me. Then he quit and now I've got nobody to play with. I've at least $300 into that game. lol Got some nice ships, too... Was never interested in WarHammer, Dungeons and Dragons etc. Too bloody or magical... witchcraft like, I guess.

And I'm going to skip all of the negativity...

Thanks, JefJef. 86 is right... It isn't over, just yet. We're not popping the champagne bottles and releasing prisoners, but it does look good. MM will be next.

[AgentSmith88]

edited by request.

[General Brock II]

It's a little late to withdraw! We're about to win! Oh well, whatever. Well fought, AOD. You guys are certainly a good clan to triumph over, and it's a proud day for us.

Cheers

[chiefsfan4ever]

Too late to join the party?

[BoganGod]

Wow, wonder whether the mods/hunters have cast their eyes over 1st Reg recently for secret weapons <joke>. Dramatic improvement, though appears to be some issues behind the scene. Spill folks.

[murphy16]

Well all I can say is that I'm glad I'm going to boot camp for the Marines December 4th, meaning I wont have to deal with playing this clan anymore.

Completely took the fun of a tournament away, never, and I mean NEVER have I withdrew from a tournament due to lack of entertainment, which is why I play this site......

[kennys777]

edit: Kenny, you play Axis and Allies? Have your own? How large is your collection? I've amassed a nicely sized English army, but I can't acquire a decent German force for relatively cheaply... Always get these rubbish pieces who were "Axis" but not hardened German forces.

Are you talking the "new" A&A? miniatures? There are some nice pieces available here in Chicago, but I mainly play Xeno World at War with generic pieces. Miniatures I have had a nice collection in Blood Bowl and WarHammer, but nothing anymore...I can't find any decent places to play, so I gave up all my miniatures before I went to Hawaii.

Yeah, "new" A&A. I couldn't stomache the old type. lol It wasn't impressive at all. No decent places to play in Hawaii? I had a friend who played Pirates of the Revolution (and so on... it's a constructable strategy tabletop game with ships) all the time with me. Then he quit and now I've got nobody to play with. I've at least $300 into that game. lol Got some nice ships, too... Was never interested in WarHammer, Dungeons and Dragons etc. Too bloody or magical... witchcraft like, I guess.

And I'm going to skip all of the negativity...

Thanks, JefJef. 86 is right... It isn't over, just yet. We're not popping the champagne bottles and releasing prisoners, but it does look good. MM will be next.

Ok, we will help you get setup for the next round right now because we aren't continuing whether we win that game or not. Most of our players no longer want to play in this tourney, so you can call it copping out or whatever, but we officially withdraw.

(Now you have no excuse for not getting games to dj on time )

I do not endorse this remark...

[kennys777]

nobody has won anything yet...Here we go again with the declarations, when will you people learn?

[mr. CD]

I'm pretty sure Agent 86 said that the game isn't over yet and Brock said that we were close to winning, which we are. As you said nobody has won anything yet.
Here we go again with the jumping to conclusion and permanent negativity, when will you people learn?

[kennys777]

It's a little late to withdraw! We're about to win!

Mr. CD, You don't find this to be a declaration?

[AgentSmith88]

Wow, wonder whether the mods/hunters have cast their eyes over 1st Reg recently for secret weapons <joke>. Dramatic improvement, though appears to be some issues behind the scene. Spill folks.

Okay, here's the scoop. Jp works extremely hard to put all our games together and put everyone where they need to be ON TIME. GG did not do this, on top of not following the 12 hour fog rule in multiple games. While there have been arguments about a deadbeat in a deciding game, I think jp's frustration comes from the fact that he followed the rules about joining games, they didn't, and there was no repercussions. On top of that Brock has been acting like a 5 year old about the whole thing declaring wins in the thread.

It's a little late to withdraw! We're about to win!

Dj said himself that their home games should have been made randoms, but it didn't happen and obviously it's too late to do now.

I have found most of GG to be respectful and level-headed, but this whole war has been one catastrophe after another.

[kennys777]

update score please...

Das Schloss: AOD win