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Rorke's Drift. [QUENCHED]

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Re: Positive reference to colonialism on beta map

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:14 pm

sundance123 wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:The map must be analized as it is.


Thats a bit drastic. So thats what goes on the foundry. Not sure I like this site anymore.



But seriously, I do think the wording acknowledges other points of view. Why is that not enough?


what is drastic? It was asked to me if In my opinion it was a case where I have to draw a line and, replying to the request I've made clear that what my reply is based on the map, looking only at the map. This because the current request is based on the thought that the map has not appropriate text on it.
If you go further reading my reply to that request i also say that maybe the text can be changed, simply I'm not drawing a line here.
Honestly, if the map has something you don't like...then it's in Beta, go on the map thread and post your suggestion there. Every mapmaker here know how things work and that suggestions or concerns must be followed without giving a logical rebuttal. Really, I don't get why this topic in going so far outside its map thread....

As said, the words can be changed, but go into the map thread to say/suggest this.

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Re: Battle at Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby MarshalNey on Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:44 pm

I'm not even close to playing a full game on this map yet, but I'm not doing a speed game or anything and it's 8 players so it will take awhile... thus my overall opinion on the map can't compare to some players who have played through it.

SirSebestar wrote:far out suggestion. the central commander and 2/3s of the availiable commanders(commanders being the +2 autodeploy spot)? (that way, if you win the game by objective, you are likely to have won it anyways


However I can briefly give my very own 2 cents on the above comment and the proposed drastic increase in the difficulty of taking the victory objective.

I suppose my disagreement with SirSebestar's statement comes from a different idea of what a victory objective is meant to do in a map. If a VO (victory objective) is meant to only be possible once a player has effectively already won the game, then its only purpose is to simply speed along the inevitable end, perhaps saving a round or two in certain situations. This is a minor convenience to be gained, in my opinion, for the added clutter and misdirection (especially for rookies) of a special rule, and I always recommend against this use when maps are being developed. From my perspective, a map is better off without a VO at all in order to keep it simple and clean, rather than being stuck in there for the odd 50th game where it actually sped things up by a fractional amount.

So, if you're going to go this route for the VO, my suggestion is to just cut it out entirely, thematic as it may be.

Otherwise, I'd recommend to try to keep the VO for what it is really meant to do, to offer a realistic alternate method of winning the game to the normal method of conquering the entire map. By 'realistic', I mean that it is possible in most (if not all) game types if a player who pursues it is not strongly opposed, much like any bonus area.

At the same time, if it is too easy to take and/or hold, then it might dominate the play of a game more than a mapmaker intended. However, that is dependent upon the mapmaker's personal vision and only he or she knows when a VO is too easy and is distorting how he or she wants the map to play out.

It seems that the VO is currently too easy for koontz's liking, so I agree that the VO should be toughened up, but I caution against going overboard and making the VO completely irrelevant.

-- Marshal Ney

P.S. The decay zones in the game that I'm playing seem horribly imbalancing... one player (myself) only lost 4 troops total, while another player lost 10 troops by the second round, all simply from the luck of the drop. If this has been commented on already and/or changed, I apologize.
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Re: Battle at Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:06 am

MarshalNey, thanks for the feedback. You are right in the sense of the VC has to be obtainable by all. Give me the weekend to get more feedback and also to get the images/xml updated.

The decaying zones where always going to be a problem with one player getting more. Sully suggested to make them underlying neutral so if a starting position was not used, it would be neutral. Currently, in a 1v1 game, that would add 10 neutrals to the board and 6 in a 8 player game. This route is not an option (IMO). So, it comes down to luck of the drop. I would not have any objections to making the starting numbers a four so one the first go, you still lose 1 but you get to start with the 3 as well.
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Re: Battle at Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:38 am

Click image to enlarge.
image

This is the image that I propose.
3 things have changed. The story now contains the line that the map is dedicated to both sides. Hopefully that will put to rest the accusations and thread problems.
Map makers name is top right now in the trees.
Opened up the territs to winning condition.

Opening up the territs make it harder to get it but not as hard as SirSebstar would like. This is a good first step and if it proves just as easy, then the next step would be SirSebstars. Solves also the problem of manual deployment games being won in round 1.

If this is OK, then I will do the large map and xml on Sunday. Sooner if I am asked by foundry mods.

Proposed xml change. Make Decaying region start with 4 troops so the first round, players start with 3.
Make Chard and Bromhead a 10 neutral because of the large bonuses.
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Re: Positive reference to colonialism on beta map

Postby ender516 on Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:03 am

Nobodies, I think sundance123 was trying to be funny by playing of your misspelling of "analyzed". As you wrote it, one might think that the map was to be inserted into a body cavity like a suppository.

On the topic, I think that the wording on the map is quite neutral. If the mapmaker chooses to state separately that it is intended as a positive commentary, I believe he is entitled to his opinion. If others read the map and shake their heads or feel outraged, that is their right. It's a bit like visiting a museum. Often displays depict a controversial occurrence with as little editorial comment as possible. The visitor is free to think "Wow, that's awesome," or "Oh my god, that's awful." The museum neither endorses nor condemns, but merely memorializes.

By the way, is there any reason why this topic should not be merged into the map thread?
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Re: Positive reference to colonialism on beta map

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:20 am

ender516 wrote:By the way, is there any reason why this topic should not be merged into the map thread?


Because here it is getting a lot of discussion. In the thread as a whole it would be lost. At the end of Beta period, then please merge it as it would be nice to save this.
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Re: Battle at Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:15 am

Victor Sullivan wrote:Perhaps the River Warriors could use some tweaking bonus-wise, but I've yet to get enough play time in to say so for sure.

-Sully


Bigger or smaller?
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Re: Positive reference to colonialism on beta map

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:19 am

ender516 wrote:Nobodies, I think sundance123 was trying to be funny by playing of your misspelling of "analyzed".


#-o
I have to stop to log in and check the site at 6:00 am with my brain already at bed! :oops:

ender516 wrote:is there any reason why this topic should not be merged into the map thread?


Right now there're no reasons, in fact I've said to go to the map thread to add other comments. I'll merge it with the map thread as soon I'll be back here (RL stuff to do now).
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Re: Battle at Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:52 am

[Merged] Positive reference to colonialism on beta map with Battle at Rorke's Drift
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Re: Battle at Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:53 am

koontz1973 wrote:Gone with isaiah40 suggestion about the bonuses as they are very large very quickly.

New images and xml.
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/854/sdriftlarge.png
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/8757/sdriftsmall.png
http://h1.ripway.com/koontz/RD22.xml


Sent to lackattack ;)
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Re: Battle at Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:58 am

thenobodies80 wrote:Sent to lackattack ;)


Thanks, but here are some new images and xml that need to go. Took SirSebstars suggestion about making the winning condition harder to grab and hold. It also deals with manual deployment problem.

The three changes I posted on Friday have stayed, for reasons previously stated. The xml has been changed to show the new borders. Chard and Bromhead are now 10 neutral while Schiess has been made a 1.
Click image to enlarge.
image

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/854/sdriftlarge.png
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/3920/bardy.png
http://h1.ripway.com/koontz/RorkesDrift1.xml
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [Page 47 - image idea to discuss]

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:56 am

np, lackattack doesn't upload files during the weekends, so I changed the old links with the new you've submitted. ;)
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [Page 47 - image idea to discuss]

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:58 am

thenobodies80 wrote:np, lackattack doesn't upload files during the weekends, so I changed the old links with the new you've submitted. ;)


Thanks for that. Sorry to be a pain.
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby QoH on Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:56 pm

My only issue with this is that in 1v1 games this map is heavily unbalanced in the favor the the player going first... dubs is better, and I'd assume it'd be even better in trips and quads.
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:03 pm

QoH wrote:My only issue with this is that in 1v1 games this map is heavily unbalanced in the favor the the player going first... dubs is better, and I'd assume it'd be even better in trips and quads.

hopefully the new files will ease that some. tried to stop anyone getting to ahead in a 1v1 but might need to look again.
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby QoH on Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:07 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
QoH wrote:My only issue with this is that in 1v1 games this map is heavily unbalanced in the favor the the player going first... dubs is better, and I'd assume it'd be even better in trips and quads.

hopefully the new files will ease that some. tried to stop anyone getting to ahead in a 1v1 but might need to look again.

What's the new update?
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:12 pm

opening up the winning condition so it is harder to get and hold. Starting troops has been lowered to 5 or 6 with a 1 in 4 ratio. Chiefs get a 4 neutral as well.
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:29 am

It has been noted that the new ratio of reinforcements is now 1 in 4. Do I need to out this on the map and if so, any ideas where?
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby JustCallMeStupid on Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:45 am

I noticed that the key says the -1 per location does not apply to territories within the outpost. Is that the territories once to get passed the 5 neutral guard spots?
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:36 pm

JustCallMeStupid wrote:I noticed that the key says the -1 per location does not apply to territories within the outpost. Is that the territories once to get passed the 5 neutral guard spots?

Correct. The first line is killer so you lose the lot.
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby JustCallMeStupid on Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:21 pm

Im only in one game on this. But it seems whoever makes it inside the outpost will stack at Scheiss since it blocks both victory conditions. Does anyone else think maybe there should be a way to distinctiveness this? Maybe make that location lose 3 per turn or something? Just an idea since one could easily defend the victory condition solely holding that one spot. Or maybe make it so more than one territory has access to Brom and Chard, maybe certain River warioriors or maybe each of the front lines can bombard Brom and Chard? Im only in one game.
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:52 pm

JustCallMeStupid wrote:Im only in one game on this. But it seems whoever makes it inside the outpost will stack at Scheiss since it blocks both victory conditions. Does anyone else think maybe there should be a way to distinctiveness this? Maybe make that location lose 3 per turn or something? Just an idea since one could easily defend the victory condition solely holding that one spot. Or maybe make it so more than one territory has access to Brom and Chard, maybe certain River warioriors or maybe each of the front lines can bombard Brom and Chard? Im only in one game.


The new files that will be playable this week opens up the VC. So you need to defend 2 terrtis instead of the one. If that is still easy then then a mixture of holding chieftains and the current VC will be tried. But I like some of your ideas so will give it a think.

New xml to fix territory borders between Mcebo and S'phamandla.
http://h1.ripway.com/koontz/BattleatRorkesDrift.xml
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Re: Battle at Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:18 pm

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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:15 am

koontz1973 wrote:New xml to fix territory borders between Mcebo and S'phamandla.
http://h1.ripway.com/koontz/BattleatRorkesDrift.xml


Sent to the turtle ;)
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Re: Rorke's Drift. [BETA]

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:18 am

Thanks.
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