Kingdom of Denmark [Quenched]

by **gimil** on Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:48 am

Not perfect, but another step in the right direction. I shall take a more detailed look at your whole map later on, mate.

Well done on how far you have come so far!

by **natty dread** on Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:04 pm

Those sea routes... make the dots smaller. They don't seem to fit the map as they are now...

by **Flapcake** on Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:23 pm

natty_dread wrote:Those sea routes... make the dots smaller. They don't seem to fit the map as they are now...

I like them, and i think they fits just fine, they different from the boring small dots like everyone else does, and they are not to be mistaken 8-)

by **natty dread** on Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:00 pm

Flapcake wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Those sea routes... make the dots smaller. They don't seem to fit the map as they are now...

I like them, and i think they fits just fine, they different from the boring small dots like everyone else does, and they are not to be mistaken

Nope, they look awful. Sorry but they do.

You shouldn't do things "different from everyone else" just for the sake of being different. Many times, people do things a certain way because it works. You are still new and looking for your own personal style... but don't force it, don't try too hard to be "different" - it will come out eventually.

The large dots give the map a juvenile look, they clash with the clean, solid style of your land, territories & sea... they simply do not look good on the map. They also make the map look more cluttered.

by **Flapcake** on Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:44 am

natty_dread wrote:
Flapcake wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Those sea routes... make the dots smaller. They don't seem to fit the map as they are now...

I like them, and i think they fits just fine, they different from the boring small dots like everyone else does, and they are not to be mistaken

Nope, they look awful. Sorry but they do.

You shouldn't do things "different from everyone else" just for the sake of being different. Many times, people do things a certain way because it works. You are still new and looking for your own personal style... but don't force it, don't try too hard to be "different" - it will come out eventually.

The large dots give the map a juvenile look, they clash with the clean, solid style of your land, territories & sea... they simply do not look good on the map. They also make the map look more cluttered.

I gladly receive constructive criticism, but criticism just for criticism, no thanks, you do not come with some better and different solutions than just "small dots" like all the other maps on CC, it's not going to happen sorry.

Flapcake

by **gimil** on Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:32 am

Flapcake wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
Flapcake wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Those sea routes... make the dots smaller. They don't seem to fit the map as they are now...

I like them, and i think they fits just fine, they different from the boring small dots like everyone else does, and they are not to be mistaken

Nope, they look awful. Sorry but they do.

You shouldn't do things "different from everyone else" just for the sake of being different. Many times, people do things a certain way because it works. You are still new and looking for your own personal style... but don't force it, don't try too hard to be "different" - it will come out eventually.

The large dots give the map a juvenile look, they clash with the clean, solid style of your land, territories & sea... they simply do not look good on the map. They also make the map look more cluttered.

I gladly receive constructive criticism, but criticism just for criticism, no thanks, you do not come with some better and different solutions than just "small dots" like all the other maps on CC, it's not going to happen sorry.

Flapcake

I think natty is being constructive. I agree that the river dots don't look very nice. I don't have a solution as of yet (other than smaller dots). Let me think aboit it.

by **natty dread** on Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:08 am

Flapcake wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Nope, they look awful. Sorry but they do.

You shouldn't do things "different from everyone else" just for the sake of being different. Many times, people do things a certain way because it works. You are still new and looking for your own personal style... but don't force it, don't try too hard to be "different" - it will come out eventually.

The large dots give the map a juvenile look, they clash with the clean, solid style of your land, territories & sea... they simply do not look good on the map. They also make the map look more cluttered.

I gladly receive constructive criticism, but criticism just for criticism, no thanks, you do not come with some better and different solutions than just "small dots" like all the other maps on CC, it's not going to happen sorry.

Flapcake

I was a newmapmaker once too, you know. I know what it's like... You have a vision for your map, and you think all your ideas are new and awesome...

However, sometimes what you think is new and awesome does not actually work. You can't just say "all the other maps on CC have small dots, so I'm going to make my dots large". Doing stuff just for the sake of being "original" isn't going to cut it, you need to consider what actually works and looks good before you start worrying about originality.

You probably think I'm just being an asshole and telling you all this just because I can't think of anything else to criticize... that's not the case, though. I'm telling you this because the sea routes you have do not work, and do not look good. I've given you plenty of good reasons for changing them.

In Finland we have a saying, "no one is a blacksmith when they are born"... ok, that doesn't translate very well, but it basically means you shouldn't expect to instantly be an expert when you start learning a new thing. And mapmaking is largely a learning experience. No matter how much or little you have earlier experience in graphical design, you're still going to need to learn new things when you start making maps.

Check out some maps in the Final Forge, and see how they've done their sea routes. It doesn't have to be just regular small dots. There are lots of options - you can use dashed lines, alternating dash/dot lines, square dots, diamond shaped dots, hexagonal dots, alternating square/round dots, etc... the only limit is your imagination. But for the love of gob, get rid of those overly large dots. It gives the map a comical look... you know, how clowns use extra-large shoes and then they're supposed to be funny? That's the kind of feeling those sea routes give, right now.

by **natty dread** on Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:17 am

Here, for some inspiration...

by **cairnswk** on Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:18 am

Flapcake, the dots do actually need downsizing a fraction, but perhaps find a happy medium between yours and other maps dots (if you want to keep them as dots)...not for the juvenile reasons that Natty has offered. The map looks far from juvenile or comical with the large dots.
In fact i'm surprised it was used as a reason for change.

And Natty, i've got to say i really think you are coming on too strong on your soapbox with your opinion and putting your ideas forward. You really don't need to do this. How about letting flapacake do the map with some reasonable and polite comments rather than the almost "bullying" style (and that's what i read from these comments) you're posting. I know you're a strong person with highly expressed opinions, but not everyone needs to be trounced on like you are doing right here.

by **natty dread** on Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:26 am

cairnswk wrote:And Natty, i've got to say i really think you are coming on too strong on your soapbox

Cairns, show me where I have bullied anyone or forced anyone to do anything. I'm giving advice from my own experience, and I think you're reading things in my posts that aren't there. All I'm saying is, that as a new mapmaker, one should not try too hard to be "original" or to do things "differently" just for the sake of being different. More often than not, when everyone is doing a thing a certain way, there's a good reason for it.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be innovative, but not all innovations are good... for example, I could make a map that's just a white image, and territory connections are shown as light grey arrows, and all territory names are written in chinese characters... That'd be new and original and innovative and artistic and whatnot... but it would not be a very good map.

by **gimil** on Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:32 am

I am going to ask that cairnswk and natty_dread take their issues to PM, before this thread spirals into something we don't want to see. I don't really see any bullying in this situation. Just a strong show of opinion. Natty_dread is making some reasonable points that should be reasonable addressed.

Now lets keep this map on track.

Cheers,
gimil

by **cairnswk** on Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:35 am

gimil wrote:I am going to ask that cairnswk and natty_dread take their issues to PM, before this thread spirals into something we don't want to see. I don't really see any bullying in this situation. Just a strong show of opinion. Natty_dread is making some reasonable points that should be reasonable addressed.

Now lets keep this map on track.

Cheers,
gimil

Onya gimil.

by **Flapcake** on Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:51 am

okey dokey, Natty I hear what you say, but I took it really as cairnswk put it, but Gimli you're right that there should be no disc taverns club about how things are said, but focus on the content, so let's just finish it here. :-$

I have gone in another direction and make small strokes instead of dots (I do not like small dots, they look like pimples to be squeezed out) the strokes give it a more anonymous appearance, they are placed on with an iron hand, had no time to greasy it :roll:

v20 [07 Sep 2011]

Click image to enlarge.

by **natty dread** on Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:03 am

The others look good, but why does the one between Djursland/Holbaek have a weird extra curve? Looks like spaghetti...

Also, the length of the dashes doesn't seem to be even... it looks like you drew solid lines and then cut out the dashes with the eraser manually. I think you should ask someone who knows photoshop how to draw evenly spaced dashed lines. GIMP has a tool for stroking paths that lets you stroke them with dashed lines, I'm sure Photoshop has something similar...

Also, why are there two different types of bridges?

by **Flapcake** on Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:29 am

natty_dread wrote:The others look good, but why does the one between Djursland/Holbaek have a weird extra curve? Looks like spaghetti...

Also, the length of the dashes doesn't seem to be even... it looks like you drew solid lines and then cut out the dashes with the eraser manually. I think you should ask someone who knows photoshop how to draw evenly spaced dashed lines. GIMP has a tool for stroking paths that lets you stroke them with dashed lines, I'm sure Photoshop has something similar...

Also, why are there two different types of bridges?

bridges, they are of different lengths, and the short does not look good with bridge pillars. the strokes are made quickly, they will be refined when I know Presis how they should look

by **TaCktiX** on Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:57 am

I will say that I prefer the look of the bridges in the north and southeast of the map. They're simple, matching the style of the map. The others seem overly detailed, not fitting in as a result.

by **koontz1973** on Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:27 pm

TaCktiX wrote:I will say that I prefer the look of the bridges in the north and southeast of the map. They're simple, matching the style of the map. The others seem overly detailed, not fitting in as a result.

Bring all of your smaller bridges like this and make the longer ones with sea routes as you have them now (but nice

). That way you get some more clarity to the map.

Great work.

EDIT: Right now, the only thing that spoils this map for me, is the bonus map. Having it go behind the main map seems overkill when you have more than enough room to make it smaller and fit beside the playing area. Can you make the text smaller and move it more to the right, giving you the room to show the whole frame.

by **gimil** on Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:10 pm

TaCktiX wrote:I will say that I prefer the look of the bridges in the north and southeast of the map. They're simple, matching the style of the map. The others seem overly detailed, not fitting in as a result.

I also agree with this.

by **natty dread** on Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:25 pm

gimil wrote:
TaCktiX wrote:I will say that I prefer the look of the bridges in the north and southeast of the map. They're simple, matching the style of the map. The others seem overly detailed, not fitting in as a result.

I also agree with this.

I also agree with this. Although those bridges should also be redrawn, the lines on them seem a bit chunky.

Speanking of chunky lines, there's several territory borders that could use some attention... here's a few examples -

by **Flapcake** on Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:28 am

Latest updated map: V21 - 08-09-2011
Ship rutes, bridges, legend

the bridges i dont know, but they do seems to fit the map ok, the sail rutes are very nice 8-)

Btw. i postes a "draft" gameplay on Pg 1, need some feedback on that pls :idea:

Click image to enlarge.

by **TaCktiX** on Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:05 am

Much better, supports the clean map rather nicely! I still think that having exclamation points for most explanation is overkill! It's as if we're exceptionally excited about conquering Denmark! And killing those who would possibly stop us! And blood! And glory! And stuff! (that's how the exclamations come across to me, but I might be the only one)

by **natty dread** on Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:19 am

I agree with tacktix!

by **Flapcake** on Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:37 am

TaCktiX wrote:Much better, supports the clean map rather nicely! I still think that having exclamation points for most explanation is overkill! It's as if we're exceptionally excited about conquering Denmark! And killing those who would possibly stop us! And blood! And glory! And stuff! (that's how the exclamations come across to me, but I might be the only one)

we're exceptionally excited about conquering Denmark! :lol:

No your right, i had in mind to remove them, forgot it, thanks for reminding me, they are so gone now.

P.S. pls take a look at pg1 I have posted a draft for the gameplay, need some comments on that, thank you

Flap

by **Flapcake** on Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:17 am

Update: v22 [09 Sep 2011]
smoothed inner borders.

Click image to enlarge.

by **QoH** on Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:53 pm

One thing I'd change is perhaps the lion border on the frame... You can't really tell what they are.

Also, i'd refrain from putting bonus area names on the mini-map, since that just makes it look really cluttered.

One technical (nit-picky) thing I'd change is replacing "passable attack ways" with "attack routes."

Bridges look good, as do the sea routes.

Great work!