[ACC] The All Comers Cup - Final

[fixitman4]

kk read the rules

Thanks

[eddie2]

Leehar made his point concisely:

1 v 1s
This could be increased to best-of-5 to ensure a greater skill requirement.
Combining his other point about more focus on doubles, how about this as a minor amendment to cover both points:

1 v 1s are best-of-4. Winner gains 1 point. If there is a 2-2 draw then neither clan gains a point.



Feel free to make further suggestions for minor tinkering, especially if you are joining.

hum if you are running this along the lines of the english football league/cups.

would it not be better to follow there point system as well 3. points for a win 1 point each for a tie. and if the challenge ends tied the team who has the most points in away games wins the challenge. just a thought im happy with whatever you do.

[Leehar]

Then also, my main worry right now is an echo of Lovo's sentiments, in that you do say it's meant to be a small event, but it does seem prohibitively large, yet still somehow not large enough if you get my drift. Basically, It's still a huge number of games at 20 from the first round all the way to 36 for the last in comparison to the normal Clan League meetings. And then in comparison to the Cup, where each set should be capable of earning medals in a 40+ game encounter, here we have a lot of smaller matchups that will give an eventual medal at the end of a minimum of 102 games for the higher ranks. Idk, for me personally this just doesn't serve as enough of an incentive in that the games are short enough to not be completely a true enough test of ability in a 40+ encounter or with medal eligibility, and yet they are long enough to not be similar enough to the clan league where you can have fun short encounters against new clans in a (albeit not fully yet) league format.
So Idk, those are just my concerns in that it seems to miss out on the best of both worlds instead of catering for both and that it still requires significant effort to commit yet doesn't really have enough of the incentive over other avenues.

With regards to Nemesis participation, I've raised it for us to discuss, and I'm still in two-minds since I was all for an event like this for all of us not currently involved in clan competitions, but unsure if we'd be better off just playing clan challenges instead...

[BoganGod]

Then also, my main worry right now is an echo of Lovo's sentiments, in that you do say it's meant to be a small event, but it does seem prohibitively large, yet still somehow not large enough if you get my drift. Basically, It's still a huge number of games at 20 from the first round all the way to 36 for the last in comparison to the normal Clan League meetings. And then in comparison to the Cup, where each set should be capable of earning medals in a 40+ game encounter, here we have a lot of smaller matchups that will give an eventual medal at the end of a minimum of 102 games for the higher ranks. Idk, for me personally this just doesn't serve as enough of an incentive in that the games are short enough to not be completely a true enough test of ability in a 40+ encounter or with medal eligibility, and yet they are long enough to not be similar enough to the clan league where you can have fun short encounters against new clans in a (albeit not fully yet) league format.
So Idk, those are just my concerns in that it seems to miss out on the best of both worlds instead of catering for both and that it still requires significant effort to commit yet doesn't really have enough of the incentive over other avenues.

With regards to Nemesis participation, I've raised it for us to discuss, and I'm still in two-minds(and you still can't make either one up can ya) since I was all for an event like this for all of us not currently involved in clan competitions, but unsure if we'd be better off just playing clan challenges instead...

For guuds sakk mattte. Shuit or geet offf the poott allreadyy. You saffa's can't make your minds up, and love sharing your indecisiveness with all. Rather than piss around and moan about what this is, or isn't. How big or not big enough it is.... noticing a theme here, a decidedly phallic one.... Lets take it as. Nemesis, still deciding whether they have a pair between them. See easy to write, eh?

9clans have registered so far, and some of them have done so without a protracted and agonizing attempt at thinking aloud in thread.

[Leehar]

9clans have registered so far, and some of them have done so without a protracted and agonizing attempt at thinking aloud in thread.

Yes, and the most common theme is that all of them with the exception of you as hosts were formed within the last year and are still at the back end of most ladders? For gathering mid-rank clans at the least, you don't seem to have done such a great job?
All I'm worried about is trying to make it more appealing for the rest of us, which obviously hasn't happened. I just put down my thoughts about why that could be so.
Rather than negativity, I'm just trying to find a way to make it more inclusive than it seems to be right now, and for that more than just dehumanizing me and my clan for making my comments, why can't we try and find out why clans like bss, legion, aod, bpb, g1, dyn and even myth (despite shocked's sentiments) etc aren't clamoring at the door to join this, since I would assume they're the ones an event like this should be shooting for - rather than the ones you currently have who I suspect aren't as aware of what exactly they're getting into...

[FarangDemon]

While I understand Leehar's points, I like how this is slightly more games per war than CL. This should reduce upsets due to luck. Clan medals are not a concern for me, and I would guess that the more competitive clannies are not concerned with their accrual either.

Some highly competitive clans might want to pick and choose relatively fewer events so that they can concentrate more on each one, which is their prerogative. But that means there could be an opportunity for the highest-skilled of the ambitious clans to distinguish themselves by winning a "Grand Slam" by attempting all events (CL, CC and ACC) and winning or making it to the finals/semifinals/quarterfinals of each.

We'll see who ends up joining, it's been just 2 days....

Good luck!

[Teflon Kris]

That was a wicked post Farang, thanks, you summed things up nicely.

Following some of the earlier comments, some relucatance (so far) from higher clans and discussions with officials, there are a couple of amendments to be made, and I will be re-drafting the format a little later on today.

The format was aimed at engcouraging all clans that feel they could manage an extra commitment. As Farang point out, each round is intended to run more quickly than a full-on war or cc tie but have less of a luck element than a CL tie. Of course, CL involves a double-round-robin in effect, so reducing luck elements overall. Had I made each round similar to a CL tie then I feel all of the higher ranked clans would have already ruled themselves out, and possible many of those aspiring that way.

As for BofM 'hosting' the tournament, I am running this as an individual, and kind of hoping that my TD role will give people a bit of confidence that I have the commitment to make this work and can run things in an organised manner. I would be extremely happy if anyone from another clan were to get involved with organising with me, especially as this would confirm neutrality in organising. Bogan is supporting the idea, not because I am hosting for my clan but because he represents an interested clan and wants to see lots of participation.

The main idea is to get plenty of clans on-board, give the majority of clans (that are currently involved in just the odd war) another serious challenge, and to use an-FA-cup-like system to encourahe higher-ranked clans get involved and give them some breathing space whilst they are still involved in the CC. The game numbers are aimed at getting a balance between duration, skill and luck and commitments (so that clans with plenty of members would feel that they could easily have enough players to be able to join and keep to their existing plans).

Hopefully amendments to the proposed structure will still reflect all this as well as being more realistic about the potential number of clans that might register. I'll try to give some indications about duration although this is obviously a tricky endeavour with no strong guarantees.

As Farang says, its only been a couple of days, so I will post a registration end date in the first post - there is still plenty of time to consider for those who are undecided and I didn#t intend to throw a big idea at everyone and demand instant decisions or approval. A big factor for many decision -makers will be who, and how many clans enter and a clearer picture of how the final format will look in detail - we will get closer, starting in a couple of hours time

So, watch this space.

[alt1978]

I think this thing is a great idea and we could care less about the medals. Set up the match-ups how you see fit and we'll fill the games. While we are new...we have a pretty good idea about what we are getting into here...and what we are getting into is something that just sounds plain fun. The worst that happens is a bunch of fat mermaids slap us around...and being married...that really isn't all that much of a change of pace.
Great job setting this up.

Count the Pig Renters in.

Contacts: Alt1978, Ukberger, Gunn217

[Teflon Kris]

First Post amended with a few minor changes. Hopefully these are improvements and may help clans make their decision and clarify some issues:

Format and Dates

Proposed format has been amended given that a full quota of clans are unlikely to enter. However, it is hoped that we will get somewhere near the 32 clans in the format example and diagram (I know this may seem optimistic at this point in time).

Dates should give an indication that most clans have the ecessary resources to cope with this tournament, the end of the CC and the start of the CL, and possibly other clan wars.

Note - player usage rules mean that clans do not need / have to use a huge number of players, therefore enabling larger clans to maintain other commitments and priorities.

Tie-Breakers - Extra-Time

The tried -and-tested one-game tie-breaker replaces the 'extra time' idea - therefore ensuring ties are not delayed.

Rankings / Byes

To reduce excessive amounts of byes, there will now be 3-tiers of clans. 4 spaces will be allocated to higher-ranking clans. Clans progressing to the CC 2 Semi-Finals take priority for these places. Clans in the quarter-Finals of the CC have a bye through round 1. The format therefore provides breathing space for any clans entering that are still competing in the Conqueror's Cup.

1 v 1 Bouts

This has been changed to best-of-4 with both clans having 2 'home' games in each bout. If scores are 2-2 then neither clan scores a point.

Feel free to PM me or post any questions, whichever you feel is best (any PM'd questions that are useful to all, I will post here anyway).

[Leehar]

Sorry to keep raising nonsensical issues, specially since I was the one to point out the 1v1's earlier. But if 3 of the 1v1's are tied and only 1 is won by a clan (or 1 tied, 3 won), and then the other clan wins the tiebreaker, would we not get back to a situation of a tied round?

[Teflon Kris]

Sorry to keep raising nonsensical issues, specially since I was the one to point out the 1v1's earlier. But if 3 of the 1v1's are tied and only 1 is won by a clan (or 1 tied, 3 won), and then the other clan wins the tiebreaker, would we not get back to a situation of a tied round?

I think this may be in the first post update but happy to clarify ...

If 3 of the 1 v 1s are drawn / tied and the other won by one of the clans then that clan scores 1 point from 1 v 1s. If scores are equal from all other games then that clan wins and the tie-breaker game isn't relevant as there is no tie to break.

I understand the confusion as in CC and other wars the 'tie-breaker' isn't no such thing, it is the 43rd game (or whatever number) and no diffrent from other games in value (apart from being preset as opposed to selected as a 'home' game by one clan or other). They should really be called neutral games.

In this tournament the 'tie breaker' is exactly what it says on the tin - it may as well not exist if there is no tie to break. For time purposes we'll play them all anyway (as per jpcloet's point, if we wait until there is a draw / tie then start them, we would have another week or two or three to wait).

[chemefreak]

All-

From a clan leader and CD point of view...we can never have too many clan events. This one will probably qualify as a tournament. Privs will most likely be granted for players like in the CLA (this is still under discussion). Once everything is finalized we would encourage the Tournament Organizer to contact the CDs to discuss priv and medal specifics. As a tournament, most likely medals will only go to the winner. However, if there are too many byes for top ranked clans that might even become an issue.

At this point, keep up the good work, get your clans together and finalize your format based on who you get. Then contact the CDs to discuss some points before you "start". Don't get discouraged by the doubters BTW, the Legion is considering this tournament. We will see based on current load with lots of people on vacation whether we can participate.

Cheers.

[Lindax]

All-

From a clan leader and CD point of view...we can never have too many clan events. This one will probably qualify as a tournament. Privs will most likely be granted for players like in the CLA (this is still under discussion). Once everything is finalized we would encourage the Tournament Organizer to contact the CDs to discuss priv and medal specifics. As a tournament, most likely medals will only go to the winner. However, if there are too many byes for top ranked clans that might even become an issue.

At this point, keep up the good work, get your clans together and finalize your format based on who you get. Then contact the CDs to discuss some points before you "start". Don't get discouraged by the doubters BTW, the Legion is considering this tournament. We will see based on current load with lots of people on vacation whether we can participate.

Cheers.

From a Tournament Director point of view: Wouldn't one want to have the privileges, medals issues and "a finalized format" solved before one even asks participants to sign up? Or, form the other perspective: Wouldn't one want those issues solved before one signs up?

Seems a bit like putting the horse behind the carriage here....

Lx

[Teflon Kris]

All-

From a clan leader and CD point of view...we can never have too many clan events. This one will probably qualify as a tournament. Privs will most likely be granted for players like in the CLA (this is still under discussion). Once everything is finalized we would encourage the Tournament Organizer to contact the CDs to discuss priv and medal specifics. As a tournament, most likely medals will only go to the winner. However, if there are too many byes for top ranked clans that might even become an issue.

At this point, keep up the good work, get your clans together and finalize your format based on who you get. Then contact the CDs to discuss some points before you "start". Don't get discouraged by the doubters BTW, the Legion is considering this tournament. We will see based on current load with lots of people on vacation whether we can participate.

Cheers.

From a Tournament Director point of view: Wouldn't one want to have the privileges, medals issues and "a finalized format" solved before one even asks participants to sign up? Or, form the other perspective: Wouldn't one want those issues solved before one signs up?

Seems a bit like putting the horse behind the carriage here....

Lx

Exactly what I am thinking - various format options being prepared over next 24 hours in order to see what formats would or wouldn't gain approval.

Maybe this case may create some loose advice re. clan tournament design etc.?

Anyway, main thing is to get some of these issues ironed out in the short-term rather than leaving too many questions hanging.

[FarangDemon]

I think even if only around 50% of the top-ranked clans join, it would still be enough to seem a highly competitive event to me. This is because I think they are all pretty good. To provide a parallel, during CL3 sign-ups, in the end, nearly every top-ranked clan joined. But well before all of those signed up, I was already feeling like enough had joined to legitimize the event as highly competitive.

Leehar did have another good point which I did not fully address with the "Grand Slam" concept, that top clans that would feel overloaded from joining ACC in addition to CC and CL may instead prefer to join regular wars, so they can control the timing of games to ensure there is no event overlap. This is because if they are overloaded, their performance will suffer, as the top clans generally spend a lot of time analyzing and communicating before taking turns. If their performance suffers, they are going to end up lower in the ranking.

One way to provide a further incentive for higher-ranked clans to join would be to create a separate ranking that only includes clans that have competed in all three events (CL, CC and ACC). I would not want this to replace the ranking that includes all clans regardless, because I don't think we want to force clan members to commit more time to CC than they already want to. So this ranking would be provided alongside the other one, to provide an indicator of the highest-skilled among the aggressive clans. I use the term aggressive because these clans are engaging in every opportunity for war.

It may be possible that some of the higher-ranked clans would decide to compete for this goal rather than to top the regular ratings list. And this additional ranking would also provide a goal for any clan with a different philosophy than would be required to make it to the top of the regular ratings list. Would be great to recognize excellence among clans of both philosophies.

[reptile]

All-

From a clan leader and CD point of view...we can never have too many clan events. This one will probably qualify as a tournament. Privs will most likely be granted for players like in the CLA (this is still under discussion). Once everything is finalized we would encourage the Tournament Organizer to contact the CDs to discuss priv and medal specifics. As a tournament, most likely medals will only go to the winner. However, if there are too many byes for top ranked clans that might even become an issue.

At this point, keep up the good work, get your clans together and finalize your format based on who you get. Then contact the CDs to discuss some points before you "start". Don't get discouraged by the doubters BTW, the Legion is considering this tournament. We will see based on current load with lots of people on vacation whether we can participate.

Cheers.

From a Tournament Director point of view: Wouldn't one want to have the privileges, medals issues and "a finalized format" solved before one even asks participants to sign up? Or, form the other perspective: Wouldn't one want those issues solved before one signs up?

Seems a bit like putting the horse behind the carriage here....

Lx

agreed

[Victor Sullivan]

Team Ohio would be down for participating, if you'll have us

Contacts: Victor Sullivan and The Bison King

-Sully

[chemefreak]

At this point, keep up the good work, get your clans together and finalize your format based on who you get.

From a Tournament Director point of view: Wouldn't one want to have the privileges, medals issues and "a finalized format" solved before one even asks participants to sign up? Or, form the other perspective: Wouldn't one want those issues solved before one signs up?

Seems a bit like putting the horse behind the carriage here....

Lx

agreed

God, I can always count on Lindax (he who is not even in a clan, ahem) to be a difficult! Seriously, in this instance I don't think we are putting the cart before the horse. The original idea has so many levels to it solely dependent on how many clans sign up. The basic premise is what everyone is signing up for and then depending on the # of clans the format can be tweaked. Also, from a CD point of view, with all due respect to our TO colleagues, we don't have time to break down every possible scenario for medals, privs, and format for everyone who wants to try something new (in this case the TO has come to us and we are trying to piece a response together). I can say from the format that everyone signed up for that there can be a medal for the winner (jpc hates byes...so 2-3 byes may not fly). Privs will be granted (whether for the whole thing or individual events will depend on the # of clans).

We like the effort this TO has put into this. In a perfect world we would have had all this worked out before, but at least the TO is giving us a chance to work it out BEFORE the tourney starts...which is actually much better than most. The clan tourney is kind of a new idea so setting limits on entries is difficult.

Everyone should sign up if they can and we will make sure the kinks get worked out before the TO starts this thing.

Cheers,

Just Another Secretary

[jpcloet]

At some point as TO's, we have to stop catering to all clans and trying to get all clans into all events. The NC had no top 20 clans yet is considered a great event IMO. Byes should happen due to structure and number of clans, not to cater to clans who happen to be busy.

[ViperOverLord]

Manifest Destiny will join please.

[BoganGod]

At some point as TO's, we have to stop catering to all clans and trying to get all clans into all events. The NC had no top 20 clans yet is considered a great event IMO. Byes should happen due to structure and number of clans, not to cater to clans who happen to be busy.

Interesting opinion there jp, agree with you on the NC. Have you had the time to acquire or have prior knowledge of the FA cup? There is also precidence in tournaments on CC for higher seeded players/teams to have byes for the first few rounds of a tournament. Why not reward more established clans for their stability and the hard work their members have put into making those clans viable and successful. BoFM will take part whether there are byes or not.

I don't think this is about trying to dragoon all clans into joining. DJ is spending a lot of his time creating something which will be fun and of value to the clan world. A bit like Lindax with his TLO this will take a fair bit of sorting out to have a smoothly run show. DJ is more than equal to the task. What I'm wondering though is why there are some many posters being negative and bitching. No one is forcing them to participate or join. So is your clan in jp?

[Qwert]

agree with jp-NC whas great competition,because everybody are start equal, no byes, and these is what will all competition need to have.

[Teflon Kris]

Following discussions with CDs, there will now only be one set of byes. I will therefore allow slight delay to the start of the second round if competing clans have progressed to the CC semi-finals. This is the best we can do to accommodate these clans. CC2 Quarter-Finals still have one bye.

Adjustments as follows (also reflected in the first post):

Tournament Format

The finalised format of the tournament will depend on the number of sign-ups, and will be close to one of the following three diagrams:

Example 1

Based on 36 sign-ups. The minimum number of clans receiving a bye to the second round will be the number of participating clans competing in the CC2 Quarter-Finals (when registration closes).


Example 2

Based on 21 sign-ups. The minimum number of clans receiving a bye to the second round will be the number of participating clans competing in the CC2 Quarter-Finals (when registration closes).


Example 3

Based on 14 sign-ups. The minimum number of clans receiving a bye to the second round will be the number of participating clans competing in the CC2 Quarter-Finals (when registration closes).

show: Proposed Schedule

show: Ranking

[ljex]

At some point as TO's, we have to stop catering to all clans and trying to get all clans into all events. The NC had no top 20 clans yet is considered a great event IMO. Byes should happen due to structure and number of clans, not to cater to clans who happen to be busy.

When you really look at it the byes only increase the competitiveness of the event, and give lower ranked/newer clans a greater chance to make a splash in the clan community with an upset.

Say for arguments 32 teams sign up, well if there are no byes, then 32nd ranked clan takes on the 1st ranked clan, the chances of them winning are slim to none. Now lets say the first round is 17-32, then the winner of those 8 vs 9-16, then the winners vs the top 8 so on. At every round the games should be more competitive as the competition will be more even which IMO is better for the clan community as a whole. Sure the top clan sits out 3 or however many rounds it is, but in all seriousness the top clans first 2 match-ups are essentially a formality if a decent number of clans enter.

[BoganGod]

At some point as TO's, we have to stop catering to all clans and trying to get all clans into all events. The NC had no top 20 clans yet is considered a great event IMO. Byes should happen due to structure and number of clans, not to cater to clans who happen to be busy.

When you really look at it the byes only increase the competitiveness of the event, and give lower ranked/newer clans a greater chance to make a splash in the clan community with an upset.

Say for arguments 32 teams sign up, well if there are no byes, then 32nd ranked clan takes on the 1st ranked clan, the chances of them winning are slim to none. Now lets say the first round is 17-32, then the winner of those 8 vs 9-16, then the winners vs the top 8 so on. At every round the games should be more competitive as the competition will be more even which IMO is better for the clan community as a whole. Sure the top clan sits out 3 or however many rounds it is, but in all seriousness the top clans first 2 match-ups are essentially a formality if a decent number of clans enter.

DJ I hate you, pull this kind of stupid shit again and I'll consider sending you to the brig. You've put me in a situation where I agree with ljex. I'm vomiting in my mouth as I write this. ljex those smart pills are working for you.