Playing against AIs or computer generated players

[helmetira]

I have looked for playing against computer generated players in the forums and there is nothing that I can find. The question is, is there forums regarding this? If not, is there going to be a time where AI players will be available? If not, why not?
I was thinking if players were able to play against computers, it would create more traffic on the site. It would give those waiting for a real time game something to do while waiting on a real person to play. This would also give new players the chance to play without looking for someone to play. In addition new players could practice on different maps to get an understanding before playing a real player. I don't think or am looking for a way to get more points. I just think it would be nice to be able to play whenever I want without having to wait forever to play. And I would also like to play some of these other maps without the pressure of loosing points trying to figure out the best strategy.
If you are an administrator can you give me some answers to the questions above? For those here playing on conquer club what do you think of this idea?

[Assassin07]

Okay 1st off There are no AI's Because it is a very complex and choice making game therfore how could you build a computer to know what to do on each map or make moves like a Human would....To answer the i want to play now right away that is what the premium membership and speed games are for If it was Free to play right away no one would buy premium member ships and the site would not have what it needs to suport its admins buy updated soft ware and such ...MY advice to you is this is not a easy game just take your time and learn its a unique game style And if you really want to play Real time games go to callouts in chat or forum or buy premium good luck
-Assassin07

[helmetira]

@ assassin07 thanks for your input, but I know for a fact creating an AI player is not that complicated, just a little time consuming to create. So I don’t see the problem other than an unwillingness to try something new. I also understand this is a business and cc would like players to become full members. And like everything I do I, I have done my research on the matter. Becoming a full member or premium member has no benefit for me. One I don’t want to play 1000 games at a time waiting days for my turn to come around. Second I have seen people in the chat rooms asking for speed games, so I would have to assume that the demand is the same for both sides. So why would I pay when I would still have to wait to play real time game. I have also heard commented there is no real benefitted to it other than the gold rank insignia. Now if there were AI available I would pay especially if I couldn’t as a freebie player, only play with one AI at a time or AI game once a week
Ok so that’s one player against. Still haven’t heard for any administrators

[jefjef]

I have also heard commented there is no real benefitted to it other than the gold rank insignia.

Really? You get to have as many games as you can handle. You also get to play speed games instead of having to find someone willing to play rt and playing it to the end. You also get R-E-S-P-E-C-T and better random in addition to the cool gold rank insignia.

If you carry 20 - 30 active games you pretty well always have some turns to take. I have waited a day or two when I had only 4 games going to have a turn to take. Thats about as much fun as watching an emergency broadcast test on tv.

[helmetira]

@ jefjef I meant no disrespect the loyal premium players. And yes I would like my rank to be in gold. But the reservations I have about payment are, not being able to play a game in real time. And because I am not a premium member I do not fully understand the speed game. The question that I have, (that will be soon answered for me because I plan on upgrading) is why do premium members go into the chat room looking for real time games when the can simply go speed? Which refers to what I wrote before “heard commented.” As for the thousands of games, being able to having mutable turns a day doesn’t interest me at all. I sit down at my computer and work, coding and testing functionality all day long. I don’t have the time or want to spend hours trying to remember witch game I am doing. I just want to chat a little make some friends with the same interests and have a couple of real time games.
Back to the subject at hand. I think it would be an added benefit to the site to have AI players. What do you think? I have heard for 2 players, 1 unwilling, 1 wrongly assuming I was bashing premium player (sorry if it sounded that way, it not intentional) I have yet, heard from an administrator.
If you do post regarding please make it about having AI players on site. Why it would be good or why it would be bad? And if you think it can’t be done I’ll write out some code and prove that it can be done.

[wilkinc]

There is a difference between speed and real time, speed turns are 5 minutes long and if there are more than two players, waiting 5 minutes per turn makes speed games seem pretty slow. In contrast, if someone says they will play real time, then they attempt to play their turn directly after the previous player finishes the previous turn. This makes games much faster.

As far as AI goes, it has been suggested numerous times before and the response has always been that the site is for human v human only. Personally, I'd love to play practice games against a decent AI opponent to learn a map before I risk points on it, but I don't imagine it'll happen any time soon.

From a programming point of view, how would you make an AI react to bad dice, or know when is the best time to cash spoils, or recognise that another player is building a stack to defend his borders, or know when to take out a player and when not to? I don't think the task is a trivial one, especially if you want the AI to be competitive in any way.

[SirSebstar]

I have looked for playing against computer generated players in the forums and there is nothing that I can find. The question is, is there forums regarding this? If not, is there going to be a time where AI players will be available? If not, why not?
I was thinking if players were able to play against computers, it would create more traffic on the site. It would give those waiting for a real time game something to do while waiting on a real person to play. This would also give new players the chance to play without looking for someone to play. In addition new players could practice on different maps to get an understanding before playing a real player. I don't think or am looking for a way to get more points. I just think it would be nice to be able to play whenever I want without having to wait forever to play. And I would also like to play some of these other maps without the pressure of loosing points trying to figure out the best strategy.
If you are an administrator can you give me some answers to the questions above? For those here playing on conquer club what do you think of this idea?

This is a rejected suggestion. It is also one of the more recurring one's.
There will not be AI's to play against, period.

first off it will not create more traffic, but it will create more "oh no, the AI hax the dice"threads. There are plenty of games to be played at any time of the day. A little patience might go a long way here, after all if you cannot wait a few minutes then you are not likely to end a game either.
Practice games are a big nono, you put your worth where your mouth it. Go and risk your points and learn, do not grab a cheap seat with your AI skillz. If you want to learn a map, look at it, read and think. That is what other players do anyways.

[helmetira]

@ wilkinc thank you for your constructive comment. The main problem would be the spoils. The rest like bad dice are fairly easy considering most of that coding I already have or can find somewhere already written. I would most likely have the AI take any spoils when ever available and put a value on certain turns. But AI wouldn't and couldn't match an experienced human player unless the drop was directly in its favour. I have borrowed some maps and started this process to practice we will have to see if it helps my game or not. Probably not but it will be fun to try it out and be able to play when I can't get a game when I want. Even if its buggy and crashes, that would be part of the fun. NOTE if you know how to do this, it is illegal to profit from your creation do to copy right laws., so keep it to yourself! Or you could find yourself in a lot of trouble.
@SirSebstar It is sad that there is nothing in the works. Like I said in other posts I'm not looking to get points or rig the games in my favour. I would have to disagree that it wouldn't create more traffic on the site. You could restrict freebies to one AI game a week or something like that to entice them. I truly think it would be an attraction to getting more people addicted to Conquer Club the best strategic gamer site on the web. Also giving new players the opportunity to practice would give them the idea that they were given every chance before getting flogged never to return to this site again. Have a look at you new players, how many of those that come back, play for more than a year. Out those how many become premium members. Now minus that number from the premium players that haven't renewed their membership this year, and have stopped play for three months or more. If the percentage is 25% or less you have a real problem on your hands. The whole point of a web business is traffic flow, to sell add space at a premium. Without it, some will see what you have here, copy the format it and make it better. Just ask yahoo and MySpace (I guess those at the top want to remain the big fish in a little pond)
In summery i have heard from 3 players, 1 unwilling from my point of veiw fearing change, 1 wrongly assuming I was bashing premium players, and 1 pro AI games. As for administration Volunteer, 1 telling me never going to happen, suck it up and play the way we play because we don't want to deal with more work.

[jefjef]

is why do premium members go into the chat room looking for real time games when the can simply go speed?

Very few people go to chat. The premiums that go there looking for rt games are mostly farming. Looking for the easy points...

Chances are they also have speed games pending - waiting for players or active and filling time between turns.

Next time you see a preemi looking for RT in chat go check his active and waiting games. You will likely see a speed or 2.

AI players on site. Why it would be good or why it would be bad?

We have plenty of people here at CC that there are always games and they mostly get filled in a reasonable amount of time. AI isn't needed, would use up a big part of the server, people would find it too easy for points OR too hard to beat and it would always be thought to be rigged, would require quite a bit of coding and CC wants this site to have only human interaction. To be a community. Nothing wrong with that.

[helmetira]

@ jefjef that was an awesome comment, thank you. I clearly don't understand the power of being able to play speed games. With that I will be paying for premium membership because of your comment and the discussions I have had with other premium players. But I doubt that I will change my mind about AI players for the site. I think it would bring new players in. I also think with a cap of one AI game a week, cc would get more premium buyers. Being able to practice on maps will only add to the competition level of the site. Almost in every sport, the competitors unfamiliar to the situation are allowed to practice to level the playing field. You see it in warm-ups before games, in the Olympics and even in billiards and Ping-Pong. The fact that there is farming for points with newbie's isn't that unfair without the ability to try out maps with an AI? Also with the combined arrogant taunting of “You suck better luck next time but I doubt it lol,” that can occur, would you want to come back to this site? Now I'm not saying that human v human is a bad thing, quite the opposite that's the best thing about this site. I am not willing to sacrifice that aspect of the site for AI. The rules of AI games to me would be; 1. a non-premium player can only play one AI game a week, with only one AI, 2. no points will be awarded for beating AI player or players, and only one human player can play an AI games. We know that AI would never be as good as a human player, and the implementation of an AI player would be to practice for new players and funnies for experienced players if they played them at all.
Now I know some players with higher rankings would think this is unfair because they didn't have AI to practice when they first started out. I say this, what if you did? Would this entice new players to visit the site? Do you think players would be more inclined to continue playing and pay for premium membership? And if so with more human players wouldn't it be more challenging site with more chances in finding friends to chat too? If you said no, I think you are thinking more about yourself and not the continuing growth of the site. You are probably one of those players that won't play other players simply because you think they might be better that you and you don't want to lose your rank, and farm easy targets for points. There is nothing wrong with that. You are playing the system. Prize fighters do it all the time, but even they have to fight sometimes knowing that they might lose to maintain the industry. So what would be better being king of a forgotten mountain, or being remembered for all time for once being king of an ever growing mountain?
In short AI play would be the bate, human v human competition would be the hook and the community would be the reel. (To further the analogy, the net is the rod)So what do you think players? Let me know keeping in mind this topic is about having computer generated players games. I have heard from 3 players, 1 unwilling from my point of view, fearing change, 1against, and 1 pro AI games. As for administration Volunteer, 1 telling me never going to happen, suck it up and play the way we play because we don't want to deal with more work.
Update on my experiment of creating my own AI with borrowed maps “EPIC FAIL” But good, I'll keep moving forward with this one.

[greenoaks]

i love it how people new to this site instantly know what is wrong with here and have the answers for improving it.

your rank is a reflection of your skill against the other people on this site. there will be no AI.

[helmetira]

@ greenoaks New people bring new ideas and I never said that there was anything wrong with the site. I am simply suggesting something to add on to it. I have been in the web industry for a long time and I have seen sites like this been taken over and completely changed or become as obsolete as the horse and buggy in a matter of months. And who is to say I am new? But thank you for your comment. Even though I found it to be closed minded, arrogant and filled with sarcasm.

[Ickyketseddie]

Are you aware of the Society of Cooks? Sign up with them and you'll get all the experience you need to play anyone on the site. Or cetainly a decent in-site into how it all works, and different strategys you can apply. More so you can get chatting to others and find people to try the new maps with. At the end of the day there only virtual points so who cares if you lose a few? What you lose learning a map you will no doubt get rewarded down the line for, so why let it bother you.

Personally i don't see the need for AI, although i understand where your coming from. Practice, practice, practice is all you need. Plus you'll never learn better than playing the better players on this site and adopting similar strategys.

Also like jefjef said playing AI means you wont meet real people on the site and the community will most likely not benifit from it.

[SirSebstar]

@ Helmetira
I think your question has been answered. There is no AI to play CC against. I cannot look in the future, but there are no immediate plans to build one either.

Speedgames can accessible for freemiums (non paying costumers) on special holidays like St. Patricks Day. Speedgames are always available for premiums.
Freemiums can have only 4 games active at any give time, premiums can have an unlimited amount of active games. This last ensures that if you have a limited time to play, like one or 2 windows in each 24 hours, you will always have a few or lot turns to play.

About practising maps. Invite a few players you like and share your thought on the map, while you are playing it. You can ask imput in the strategy forum from the community, and for some there are even complete guides. But there will be no free dry-runs without risking points. The creator of the site said that would go against the spirit of the game.

[greenoaks]

And who is to say I am new? But thank you for your comment.

your profile says you are new.

us old hands can read.

[macbone]

I'll second the recommendation for joining the Society of the Cooks. There's a link to our forum in my sig. =)

I've found the best way to learn new maps is to play a few games on them. I've played AIs on other sites, and I'd rather play human opponents.

[FarangDemon]

@ assassin07 thanks for your input, but I know for a fact creating an AI player is not that complicated, just a little time consuming to create. So I don’t see the problem other than an unwillingness to try something new. I also understand this is a business and cc would like players to become full members. And like everything I do I, I have done my research on the matter. Becoming a full member or premium member has no benefit for me. One I don’t want to play 1000 games at a time waiting days for my turn to come around. Second I have seen people in the chat rooms asking for speed games, so I would have to assume that the demand is the same for both sides. So why would I pay when I would still have to wait to play real time game. I have also heard commented there is no real benefitted to it other than the gold rank insignia. Now if there were AI available I would pay especially if I couldn’t as a freebie player, only play with one AI at a time or AI game once a week
Ok so that’s one player against. Still haven’t heard for any administrators

If you are not a computer programmer then you have no idea how hard it is to program a computer to do anything. What seems a simple rule for a human to follow can be incredibly complex to teach a computer.

That being said, I have created one that is OK but it took me a long time and I don't think any run-of-the-mill programmer is up to the task.

http://killersapp.com/calculator.aspx

It is not very user friendly, just a proof of concept for myself.

Click "Begin", then "Battle Simulator". I think you are green and computer is red. Good luck. Red always goes first and always attacks you in order to minimize your expected deployment. So you are pretty much screwed. I believe A1, A2 and A3 is a bonus region for +2 or +3.

[helmetira]

@ greennoaks I too can read and I have been reading up all I can about the site for a while now and I liked what I saw. That is why I posted this where I did. greennoaks be careful not to read a book by its cover and never assume you know everything about the situation. Your pride will blind you and your arrogance will help others to stab you in the back.
@ FarangDemon very good! Not to give too much away but I am assuming that you are talking about coding for this particular platform? What if you had the tools to create a downloadable program for each player that would interact with player and web data base? Something like online poker. Cleaner and friendlier interface with extra bells and whistles, but functionality the same. A very daunting task, but what if all you had to do, was put the pieces together?

To everyone that posted a comment I gained a lot thank you. Who knows we might be able to revisit this topic in the future. For now I have said my peace. I hope this forum stays open and if anyone that would like to comment on it please do. I would love to hear your thoughts on the matter of introducing AIs with no points gaining games.

[nebsmith]

I would say no to any AI on this site I come here to play other people not cumputers.

As to the difficulty of writting an AI to play risk, there are plenty of PC risk games available and there is nothing wrong with the AI in them. Trouble is, beating a computer or losing to one, either way I quickly get bored by it. No sense of accomplishment.

As an aside I really don't like the tone of your replies helmetira, personal attacks because people disagree with you is not the way to garner support. Try responding to the argument not the person.

You are new here, less than a month according to your profile. This suggestion has been made before and never gets anywhere. Most of the community don't like it and that is the point it is a community here, where you get to interact with real people.

[Ickyketseddie]

And who is to say I am new? But thank you for your comment.

your profile says you are new.

us old hands can read.

Lets hope this doesn't mean he's had another account previously...

[jefjef]

it is a community here, where you get to interact with real people.

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[nebsmith]

You lost me there jefjef, I think your motherboard needs replacing.

[greenoaks]

And who is to say I am new? But thank you for your comment.

your profile says you are new.

us old hands can read.

Lets hope this doesn't mean he's had another account previously...

i dangled the rope .......

[helmetira]

@ nebsmith could you please clarify my tone and personal attack? The only one I have come close to doing so was greennoaks with a suggestion because of his previous comments which I found as a personal sarcastic attack. I love that this is a well established community and that fact that most of you are quick to defend it in a variety of ways tells me a lot. nebsmith I love the way you defended your community clearly and politely showing no disrespect to the site or yourself. As a new player I have to say it can be a little intimidating. I was expecting more off a helpful assistance like macbone's comment or yes or no answers with a bit of reasoning.

@ Ickyketseddie no this is my first and only account but I do know some others with accounts that have fed me some information. And I like to do my research before committing to something.

[dwilhelmi]

At the end of the day, helm, I think the main issue is that it is too much work for too little gain. Some people would enjoy it, and it may, possibly, slightly, a little bit increase premium membership. However, compared to the sheer amount of programming work required, there is no way it would come close to being worth it. While it may be relatively simple to program a proof of concept AI, it is massively complex to program an actual, full bodied, at all competitive AI. Add in the number of bugs that would be reported (huge), the amount of time spent reading through the number of complaints it would generate ("AI clearly has better dice" was a good example), and all of the complexities of this site (special rules on some maps, freestyle games, team games, etc) and now the amount of work is out of the ballpark.

If you want practice, get a Risk game with a decent AI that is already on the market. Most of what you need to excel on CC is transferable from standard Risk.