[IDEA] Medieval Feudal Nobility

[OliverFA]

Hello all! Here is an idea that I've had for some time. After thinking about it in my mind I think I have a mature concept about it. So I am presenting the concept to see if it has potential or it's better to forget about it.

Name: Feudal Nobility (Working Title)
Concept:Each player represents a medieval noble family battling to achieve noble titles. The ultimate goal is to achieve the King (or Emperor) title.
Regions grant a bonus, but the real bonus is gained by holding the region and the noble title. The higher the noble title, the higher the bonus.
Map aspect:It has two areas. The main area, represents the actual map, featuring the land and the noble castles. The auxiliary area represents the noble titles of the country and their vassalage dependencies. Like in this example:

Code: Select all

                    King
           +-----------------------+
           |                       |
         Duke                    Duke
     +-----------+           +-----------+ 
     |           |           |           | 
   Count       Count       Count       Count
  |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
Baron Baron Baron Baron Baron Baron Baron Baron


Each title has a matching castle in the map area. From that castle, the title can be attacked. This will be named Claiming the title. So to become Baron of X you need to conquer the X castle and from there claim the title. To receive the bonus you need to hold the region (which includes the castle) and the title.

Each title has +1 autodeploy. This means the longer you have the title the better your position as you win legitimacy at it and the most difficult to claim by an usurper.

To get higher bonuses (Count and Duke) you need to hold the full region (which includes the lesser regions) and all the titles (For example to be Count you need to hold the full county, the Count title and the two Baron titles).

Higher titles can bombard lower titles. But beware! By doing that you will weaken your legitimacy.

How to win:You can win by killing all the other opponents or by claiming the king title. King title is protected by a lot of neutrals. Maybe by several killer neutral stages.

Summary:The concept needs some refinement. But basically, that's it. After conquering the land of Baron X, you will only get a small fraction of the region bonus. You still need to conquer the region representing the title to successfully claim that baron title, which is still being held by your opponent noble family. If that family has more lands (ar maybe also more titles) elsewhere the player can decide to reinforce his title to protect it from you.

Well, that's all for the moment. Any comments are welcome

[Victor Sullivan]

An intriguing idea for sure... I think it could have merit if done properly, but it would be difficult for me to go into specifics without seeing a draft first. I'd especially need to see the land area. I think your territories-per-title ratio would be a big thing that would require balancing.

-Sully

[isaiah40]

[MOVED] into the proper forum.

[theBastard]

sounds very interesting. and also very historic.

have you any idea how the map could looks like? will be "king title" in the centre of map? or will there be two maps - one with lands and castles and second with nobility rank as you shown in your first draft?

PS: if you have interest, you can take my Medieval Oligarchy and adapt it for your idea...

[gimil]

I love the sound of this concept. I have a few ideas and tweeks thou that may make it feel a little more realistic.

Firstly, instead of becoming a baron by attacking through a barons castle you can have the title legitimacy table as a separate play area from the main map. Each person begins the game with a castle on the main map, and it's representing baron title on the titles map. By using 'losing conditions' if a player loses their castle on the main map, they get eliminated from the game, taking their legitimacy to the throne from them whatever rank they may be (can't be king if you do not have a castle). You can then set win conditions so that a play can win by either:

A. eliminating all other contenders to the throne, or

B. legitimating you kingship by gaining and holding the title of king.

Does that make sense? I feel I may have waffled a little

[Industrial Helix]

Similar to King's Court.

[theBastard]

not exactly, Helix. this looks as realy good idea with historic accuracy (so much as is possible).

- the assault way from Baron´s castle (on the map) to Baron´ title is clear. how will works taking the Count´s title?
- will be possible to assault it from Baron´s title? or you need hold all County on the map and only then you can assault Count´s title?
- but assault it from where? from Baron´s title or from any Castle on the map (one of Baron´s castles which made County or Count´s castle?)

it needs any connection between map and title table...

I agree with gimil, that Baron´s castles yould be starting points. I´m not so sure if also Baron´s title should be also starting point.

[gimil]

I agree with gimil, that Baron´s castles yould be starting points. I´m not so sure if also Baron´s title should be also starting point.

I was suggesting that you start with your baron title. But you can't attack between castle and titles. The main map and the title map are separated, no way to attack between the two. My line of through was essentially a main map that plays like Feudal war/Epic. You start with a castle, expand and try to capture other castles. The different here would be that you could have losing conditions, so that if you loose your castle that is the equivalent to being overthrown.

The titles table in my idea is disconnected. You start with the baron title and aim to work up to king. If you gain and hold the status of king you win through a victory condition.

But that is just my idea, if oliver doesn't like it that is fine. I might just take my idea and make it for myself

[theBastard]

The titles table in my idea is disconnected. You start with the baron title and aim to work up to king. If you gain and hold the status of king you win through a victory condition.

this in theory should means that map (with regions and castles) will be not important and players will fixate on titles table...

[gimil]

The titles table in my idea is disconnected. You start with the baron title and aim to work up to king. If you gain and hold the status of king you win through a victory condition.

this in theory should means that map (with regions and castles) will be not important and players will fixate on titles table...

Not if you designed it to be balanced! Make the neutrals on the titles table high enough that you have to consider expanding on the main map to accumulate the troops needed to break titles. But your point is valid. If they two maps are not balanced to work together then one map or the other will become redundant.

Again thou, it is just my idea, not my map!

[OliverFA]

Hi all. Sorry for the late reply. I have been busy in other places. I am proceeding to answer all of you right now.

[OliverFA]

In my original idea, there are two play areas: The "normal" area and the "titles" area. But they are connected. And the point that connects both areas are the castles.

Let's start by the baron titles. The title is linked to the land of its name, and for that reason the only way to achieve that tile is from the castle that dominates that barony. The Baron Castle one way attacks the Baron title. But, as I said, with time comes legitimacy. So, each turn you have a Baron title, you get +1 autodeploy to that title. As you can't take those troops anywhere (no border to anywhere) that's just a measure of how many turns you have that title (you can deploy in your title if you want, to protect it even more).

Owning all the barony gives you a small bonus. Owning the title gives you also a bonus (call it nobility influence) But the real bonus comes from the barony and the baron title. Let's say that the barony gives you +3, the Baron Title gives you +1 and both together give you +8.

About higher titles (count and duke): To successfully become Count, you need to own the title and all the county (divided in several baronies). You don't need to own the baron titles. But notice that if you don't own the Baron Titles you are losing all the Baron bonuses.

Becoming King is a different thing. If we say that you just need to conquer the King title, it would be too easy. But if we say that all the duke titles are needed, it would be the same as eliminating everybody. I think a good compromise is requiering the player to own the king title and half+1 duke titles.

Alternatively, one possibility is to reduce this to only two levels: Dukes and Kings. This would simplify things and, if it works, there can always be a second map with more levels.

[OliverFA]

I love the sound of this concept. I have a few ideas and tweeks thou that may make it feel a little more realistic.

Firstly, instead of becoming a baron by attacking through a barons castle you can have the title legitimacy table as a separate play area from the main map. Each person begins the game with a castle on the main map, and it's representing baron title on the titles map. By using 'losing conditions' if a player loses their castle on the main map, they get eliminated from the game, taking their legitimacy to the throne from them whatever rank they may be (can't be king if you do not have a castle). You can then set win conditions so that a play can win by either:

A. eliminating all other contenders to the throne, or

B. legitimating you kingship by gaining and holding the title of king.

Does that make sense? I feel I may have waffled a little

I think that is a good idea to start being a baron but that's compatible with the border Baron's castle-->Baron's Title. To usurpe other Barons titles, you do it by taking their castle and them working to be recognised as the new baron (the attack between the castle and the title)

[OliverFA]

sounds very interesting. and also very historic.

have you any idea how the map could looks like? will be "king title" in the centre of map? or will there be two maps - one with lands and castles and second with nobility rank as you shown in your first draft?

PS: if you have interest, you can take my Medieval Oligarchy and adapt it for your idea...

Thanks for the offer. I have sent you a PM about it. We could work together if you agree.

Do you have a source that names noble titles of Hungary? Or should we trust in our friend the Wikipedia?

[Oneyed]

this idea looks interesting. I did any draft, so if you OliverFA will agree we can continue in this project. just PM me.

it is about Kingdom of Jerusalem. there are also offices implemented.

coloured regions are Baron´s castles, black regions are Baron´s castles under direct King´s authority. Barony is made by castle and town (white region). County/Principality/Lordship is made by two the same coloured regions (castles! and two white regions (towns).
ports are not part of any barony, county/principality/lorship.

Click image to enlarge.

[Industrial Helix]

If I understand your idea correctly, it sounds a lot like King's court, but msybe a little more extensive.

[Oneyed]

If I understand your idea correctly, it sounds a lot like King's court, but msybe a little more extensive.

a little similar, but not exactly. King´s Court is more complex with all knights, castles, trebuchers, archers and the game on map is much more important as in court. my idea is more balanced between map and court and is less complex.

it was just idea, I work on another project (aside CC) about Kingdom of Jerusalem, therefore this idea become so quickly to my mind

Oneyed

[OliverFA]

this idea looks interesting. I did any draft, so if you OliverFA will agree we can continue in this project. just PM me.

Thanks Oneyed. The draft is interesting, and I think it's a very good thing to bring European Medieval Feudality to Israel. We tend to forget Israel was an Europuean Feudal country for a while.

In my opinion, we would need to work a little bit in bonuses structure in order not to make it hard to understand. Ideally, first time players should be able to grasp the mechanics right from the begining, and maybe all those lesser offices make things a bit more complicated. But we just need to think a little bit about it to incorporate the lesser office concept into nobility while making it easy to understand.

I would also try to make the actual map a bit bigger. Not by incorporating more land, but by dividing it in a bit more regions. Right now it has 30-something territories. Maybe around 45 would be more interesting.

Overall, is a great draft with a lot of potential. I really like it! Now let's work to develop into from a great draft into an awesome map

[Oneyed]

In my opinion, we would need to work a little bit in bonuses structure in order not to make it hard to understand. Ideally, first time players should be able to grasp the mechanics right from the begining, and maybe all those lesser offices make things a bit more complicated. But we just need to think a little bit about it to incorporate the lesser office concept into nobility while making it easy to understand.

I do not think the lesser offices is complicated thing. it is just next step at the way to become the King. the draft is not the best. court part of map needs more and better explantation.
maybe we should write a short story for the map (history and what titles and offices mean) somewhere.

I would also try to make the actual map a bit bigger. Not by incorporating more land, but by dividing it in a bit more regions. Right now it has 30-something territories. Maybe around 45 would be more interesting.

I do not exactly know possibilities about map size (in pixels). some more regions would be fine. idea of starting positions is:
each player will start with barons castle colored cyrcles) and one town (white cyrcles) from different county. the ports, Jerusalem, baron´s castles under king´s authority and brown area will start as neutral.

Overall, is a great draft with a lot of potential. I really like it! Now let's work to develop into from a great draft into an awesome map

thanks. it is built on your idea

An important thing is that maybe it would be interesting to sacrifice historical accuracy in favour of gameplay. To have an idea about what I am talking about you can see the New World map. Is a bit of an alternative version of the Americas colonization. Of course, if we can be 100% faithful to History then great, but if the gameplay will be better by changing a couple of things, then in my opinion we shouldn't be afraid of making it.

the map area would be 99% historical (castles, towns, counties), and ok, the "move" between noble titles and offices was a little another. but I think we should be close to history.

Baronys directly under king's control may be historical, but it would be better in gameplay terms to give them to another baron (and that's not so ahistorical. The king could teoretically grant land to another noble at any time). If we make in that sense, players will only have to worry about baron castles and baronys.

at the first I wanted to do only 8 baronies and titles. but historically and also for more possibilities in game I did them 12. your idea with 8-4-2-1 is more clear, but my idea was to do map and court parts of map more balanced.
but also we could have only 8 "independent" baronies in the court. and 4 baronies under king´s authority should be only bonuses in map.
then 6 lesser offices, 4 counties, 3 high offices and King looks fine to me.

In fact those officials idea is good because makes a bit more difficult to become king and it's coherent with the nobility concept, so it's a great addition!

we need to polish they bonus and role in gameplay.

thanks for all kind words and for advices. I´m looking forward to work on this with you

Oneyed