Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri [warned]

[lokisgal]

I had a similar complaint in our war with Empire where lord voldemort was around taking turns then leaving a clan game to run short on time. Often he would log onto msn then suddenly his flag would change and his turn would be taken. I also have a widget which tells me when people are taking turns so that I could see when he was taking his turns and then watch his flag change back and forth between his home country and 2 others during the course of multiple days.
I went to the mods rather than file a report in here because they just become bitch fests. I know the mods can check IPs and see who is in whos account when. I was told I had to host images to them and this is blocked on my computers so I asked them to check ips. I also offered to email screen shots as attachments and was told that was not acceptable.

Its one thing if there is a some sort of mis understanding between a sitter and a sittee its another to take someones turns in a game multiple times. Once ok you had a mix up or didnt make it back and a clan member got worried and hoped in.
Twice its a hmm but after that well its just not right. It does bring up the question of why play team games then.

I was told by lovo that well he just didnt have time to come back and take that turn yet he took turns with much more time on them earlier in the day. I don't think you get pick and chose which turns you take and then leave others for your clan mates especially clan war games. As I said one time ok 2 times hmm 3 times well then why are you in that game to begin with?

There really needs to be a more strict sitting rule ESPECIALLY when it comes to clan wars..........

loki, I just refreshed my memory by looking at that hive game chat. LV was sat twice. The first time he made a comment in chat when there was 14 hours left for his turn. He intended to come back to it but didn't make it back in time, so the turn was sat. The second time, several rounds later, he was on at the very last minute but someone else in the clan was not aware of it so they took the turn for him. He tried to explain his busy RL situation in the chat, but that didn't go over very well with you. Perhaps he should have taken his turn when he commented the first time, but he didn't so it was necessary for someone to take it for him. This is not at all the same as the situation being discussed here, and I resent the implication that it is. LV did not leave his turns on purpose to be taken by a better player who would make all the strategic decisions for him. He was not trying to cheat, which is what I consider to be happening here if the allegations are true. It was merely some misunderstandings between you and some our players, and possibly some misunderstandings within our clan.

Actually Denise thats just the times it was posted in chat. After I brought it up there were other time when the turn was taken by someone from the US and from Canada. I happened to be online then and saw the move change and saw the flag as well. In at least one of these turns there was plenty of time left on the clock. You are as most of us do, going on the assumption that people will be honest and post when they sit. Sadly we all know this is not always the case.

Nothing against Empire or you Denise.

Just the facts of what I observed multiple times in that game. And as others have brought up in here lovo's excuse of hey I had a baseball game really isnt valid . If he was here and took turns earlier in the day he could have taken that one. And being a baseball fan I know that 12 hours + is would be a world record long game... Certainly I had a baseball game and that was more important isnt really a very good excuse to not take your own turns..

[Chuuuuck]

I will say that this is obviously a HUGE topic in the clan world and I hope the site starts respecting that with their decision making. We need help policing better wars and without tools and C&A help, we can't do it. I organize this challenge where most of these games have been played. We have rules stating that a player can play in a MAXIMUM number of games in each challenge because the challenges are designed to show a clans strength across a group of at least 10-15 players. Every challenge KoRT has played in for the last 4-5 challenges, I have received complaints that they are virtually circumventing this rule by using obsessive sitting. I would love for any way to check how true these facts are or to do something to limit a player's access to these games so they can not go around the maximum rule to still basically use 1 player in a majority of their games.

More importantly, what I fear is going on behind the scenes here (and possibly in other clans too) is this player (and other players) are probably logging in and leading the strategy in games that they are not even in. I can by no means prove this fact and am not directly accusing everyone, just pointing it out to the site that IF it was happening, how would we ever know? And what are you doing to uphold the integrity of the site to make sure this isn't happening?

I should point out that I really have nothing against josko or KoRT in general. I think they are walking a fine line with what they believe is within the rules to be as competitive as possible and I applaud that because I would often do the same thing. I just happen to fall on the belief that they are walking on the wrong side of the line the way the rules are currently written and the way the rules should be enforced.

I usually try to talk to at least one of my teammates before playing the turn. For whatever reason, I was not able to talk about those games on those days (real life gets in the way). When that happens I usually wait (sometimes until the last minute) and play the turns right before I go to bed, but there are exceptional cases in which I'm mentally exhausted and I prefer to throw some ideas around and sleep knowing that I have an apt person to sit for me in case I don't wake up in time to take the turn.

To me, this is not a defense, this is a member of their clan blatantly admitting to the abuse they are being accused of. I believe the stance of the site is you should take your own turn in a team game if you are capable. Not getting instructions or not talking it over with a teammate is not a reason for a sitter and is directly in the violation of the rule for sitting abuse because they are using sitting to gain a strategical advantage (by talking over the games whereas their schedules did not allow them to do that conveniently).

It does bring up the question of why play team games then.

I am not jumping on the bandwagon here, but the highlighted part needs to be recognized in general. There really is no point in playing "team" games when people are playing for the other players in the group. Its really pointless.

This is where I feel this case should be heading honestly. To the extent this went on, I don't consider this "Account sitting abuse." I honestly am starting to believe this is a clear cut case of a Busted Multi. Otherwise, what I understand then is that in the eyes of Conquer Club is that it is against the rules to create two accounts and play on both of them and control both in team games. But, as long as you can get a friend to create one of the accounts and agree to use it every once in a while, you are free to still use that account in the exact same fashion as you would use a strictly multi account that you created yourself. There has been a suggestion for "Team 1v1 Games" going on forever. I am nearly certain clans would not allow these types of games in wars unless they are designated as the 1v1 games for the war, however, essentially, we are saying it is okay to go around the rules of the site and the rules of the engagement of clan wars and do this anyway because no one here will punish you for it. In which case, I will be the first to admit, if we decide that this sort of thing is within the rules, then I will probably start adding strategy and/or sitting to EVERY clan war game my clan is a part of.

I partially disagree with you. I think that any non ad-hoc sitting system is not going to satisfy I think a feature where you can acces someone else's account for games only where your logging in is accounted for in the gamechat, is something worthwhile. It would not stop the josko sitting abuse, but it would make things more visiable and trackable. Then it would be obvious in some cases where sitting is happening not to avoid a missed turn, but for strategic purposes, and that is not allowed..

This is how I feel. This would be huge. If you just made a system that allowed people to sit for one another by logging in through your own account and then ban logging into another person's account altogether. It would make the situation so much easier to track and make it so much easier to figure out people's motives. We would know exactly when players were logging and offering up strategy to games they aren't even involved, or taking turns while the original player is taking other turns. This is the kind of help we need from the site... in the meantime, they need to do their best with the tools we have to stop this behavior.

either that you have games that come before it and are taking those first, and otherwise, that you just prefer to wait as long as possible because it's a team game so you prefer to consult with your teammates

I agree, we don't need to change people's mentality on how they play games. But Leehar, I think you miss the point of what is "as long as possible." "As long as possible" is as long as you, as the person playing the account, can afford to wait to take the turn YOURSELF. "As long as possible" is not the very last minute or hour so everyone can comment and then your best player in the clan can take the turn. I am more than happy to allow clan members comment on strategy on my games but I do not feel they need to log into the game if they are not involved in it. If they talk about it via forums, PMs, etc. then that is their prerogative. But I think the most important fact here, is that in the yes of Conquer Club (as it should be), your account belongs to YOU. YOU take the turns knowing YOUR schedule. If that does not allow YOU to wait until the last minute to hear from someone else, then YOU must use your own strategy and take YOUR OWN turn. Waiting for strategy is not a reason to have an account sitter and in fact it is pretty straight forward that is against the rules.

(NOTE: The YOU's are not directed at you Leehar, but really every Conquer Club account in general)

[lord voldemort]

simple fact of the matter loki..in a quick defence of myself...
I play in games in which i have proven to be great at in clan challenges...i dont need someone to hold my hand and play my turns...and the same goes for everyone in empire. we dont put people in games they dont know.
We do however use excellent communication and that results in alot of the time my games getting low...you know living on the opposite side of the world and all...
and a baseball game in australia is a lengthy exercise...its a full day of 3 games including warm up and cool downs and social functions to go with....
the point is...as i told you when this all went down...file a god damm report about me if you think im breaking the sitting guidelines.

[drunkmonkey]

More importantly, what I fear is going on behind the scenes here (and possibly in other clans too) is this player (and other players) are probably logging in and leading the strategy in games that they are not even in.

And the accusation snowballs once again. Seriously, enough of the "I bet they're doing this too, even though I can't prove it". Remember the statement about "baseless accusations in C&A will be punished"? I'd love to see that enforced.

[InsomniaRed]

More importantly, what I fear is going on behind the scenes here (and possibly in other clans too) is this player (and other players) are probably logging in and leading the strategy in games that they are not even in.

And the accusation snowballs once again. Seriously, enough of the "I bet they're doing this too, even though I can't prove it". Remember the statement about "baseless accusations in C&A will be punished"? I'd love to see that enforced.

He didn't accuse you or anyone specifically of doing this, he clearly said that is what he feared was happening. You don't have to be defensive about every statement that is made in this thread as a personal attack toward you, josko, or your clan in general. Chuck's post was very well thought out and well put. I think he has the right idea going.

[lord voldemort]

More importantly, what I fear is going on behind the scenes here (and possibly in other clans too) is this player (and other players) are probably logging in and leading the strategy in games that they are not even in.

And the accusation snowballs once again. Seriously, enough of the "I bet they're doing this too, even though I can't prove it". Remember the statement about "baseless accusations in C&A will be punished"? I'd love to see that enforced.

well i definitely think this is the case...
i have the unique perspective of being an ex hunter that can just see how bad clan babysitting and account sharing is...
sure i get a good portion is legit...
but there are players who use and abuse account sitting.
And i know for a fact it happened in a good portion of the top clans

[drunkmonkey]

More importantly, what I fear is going on behind the scenes here (and possibly in other clans too) is this player (and other players) are probably logging in and leading the strategy in games that they are not even in.

And the accusation snowballs once again. Seriously, enough of the "I bet they're doing this too, even though I can't prove it". Remember the statement about "baseless accusations in C&A will be punished"? I'd love to see that enforced.

well i definitely think this is the case...
i have the unique perspective of being an ex hunter that can just see how bad clan babysitting and account sharing is...
sure i get a good portion is legit...
but there are players who use and abuse account sitting.
And i know for a fact it happened in a good portion of the top clans

That's great. Make another C&A post about it, and bring plenty of evidence along.

[lord voldemort]

lol i would if i still had access to the multi hunter tools
That and it would require blatantly giving away the ways hunters work

[jpcloet]

More importantly, what I fear is going on behind the scenes here (and possibly in other clans too) is this player (and other players) are probably logging in and leading the strategy in games that they are not even in.

I'm trying to not post in here, but I will try to correct misled statements best I can. One of the best things about clans is that you have teammates who can teach you new strategies or recognize a move that you may not have considered. I have personally asked for a teammates advice here and there whether it be via a sunny game or via an image in a foggy game. I personally don't have an issue with clan members helping each other with strategy, even if it is in games they are not in. The excesses you are inferring to, to me is more about the spirit of clan wars rather than site law.

[lord voldemort]

More importantly, what I fear is going on behind the scenes here (and possibly in other clans too) is this player (and other players) are probably logging in and leading the strategy in games that they are not even in.

I'm trying to not post in here, but I will try to correct misled statements best I can. One of the best things about clans is that you have teammates who can teach you new strategies or recognize a move that you may not have considered. I have personally asked for a teammates advice here and there whether it be via a sunny game or via an image in a foggy game. I personally don't have an issue with clan members helping each other with strategy, even if it is in games they are not in. The excesses you are inferring to, to me is more about the spirit of clan wars rather than site law.

this can be achieved without logging in though...
back in the day before you had snaps you used to print screen and post in forums...why not do the same here for strat advice?

[danryan]

More importantly, what I fear is going on behind the scenes here (and possibly in other clans too) is this player (and other players) are probably logging in and leading the strategy in games that they are not even in.

I'm trying to not post in here, but I will try to correct misled statements best I can. One of the best things about clans is that you have teammates who can teach you new strategies or recognize a move that you may not have considered. I have personally asked for a teammates advice here and there whether it be via a sunny game or via an image in a foggy game. I personally don't have an issue with clan members helping each other with strategy, even if it is in games they are not in. The excesses you are inferring to, to me is more about the spirit of clan wars rather than site law.

this can be achieved without logging in though...
back in the day before you had snaps you used to print screen and post in forums...why not do the same here for strat advice?

I'm with jpcloet on this. I see no problem with jumping on to look at a position and give advice, it's essentially the exact same thing as taking a screenshot and posting it but quicker. It is completely different than taking the turn yourself when the sittee is available to take their turn.

Btw, I have no dog in this fight at all, but after numerous complaints about behavior like this I at least would pause to reflect on the complaints and see if perhaps I should change the approach to sitting. We frequently have joked with opponents when a sitter has to take a turn, because of the perceived advantage given when a top player sits for someone else. That joke can quickly become sour if it's systematic.

[Chuuuuck]

More importantly, what I fear is going on behind the scenes here (and possibly in other clans too) is this player (and other players) are probably logging in and leading the strategy in games that they are not even in.

I'm trying to not post in here, but I will try to correct misled statements best I can. One of the best things about clans is that you have teammates who can teach you new strategies or recognize a move that you may not have considered. I have personally asked for a teammates advice here and there whether it be via a sunny game or via an image in a foggy game. I personally don't have an issue with clan members helping each other with strategy, even if it is in games they are not in. The excesses you are inferring to, to me is more about the spirit of clan wars rather than site law.

JP, then maybe you should not of posted in here if you are trying not to unless to correct a misled statement.

The definition of misled is "to lead into error of conduct, thought, or judgment."

I did not lead anyone in error. I did not state anything along those lines as fact, I simply said I fear it is happening and was trying to show a much broader picture of what the problem is here. I thoroughly thought out what I said and the message I was trying to convey. In fact, I could even vouch in instances in the past where my "fears" are known to be true because I have known several people at different times in my CC career who have admitted to doing this. This is not a C&A abuse report about this per say, but I feel it is on topic because I want the Admins/Hunters to think of all of the implications of the way the rules stand now and realize their ruling here could be a precedent for how things are interpreted in the future.

On top of that, you quoted one thing from my passage and called it "misleading" but you did not take the entire sentence in context.

are probably logging in and leading the strategy in games that they are not even in.

You only cared to talk about the fact that players are leading the strategy. However, the word "and" between "logging in" and "leading the strategy" implies that those two things TOGETHER make up my fears. Leading the strategy has nothing to do with why everyone thinks they are cheating by itself. It would be cheating because they are LOGGING IN for someone else to do it. That is abuse of having that persons password and taking advantage of their account. If they want to lead the strategy in that game through proper channels, from their own account, whether it be PMs, their own forums, or anything else, then I would have no problems with it.

Nothing about my post was misleading and I would greatly appreciate it if you wouldn't mislead others by changing the context of what I was saying.

[jpcloet]

So let me clarify then.

Are you concerned that

A) a player is using another player's account (in the game) to post strategy for that player but not playing the game
B) a player is using another player's account (in the game) to post strategy for that player AND playing the game
C) both A & B

[Chuuuuck]

So let me clarify then.

Are you concerned that

A) a player is using another player's account (in the game) to post strategy for that player but not playing the game
B) a player is using another player's account (in the game) to post strategy for that player AND playing the game
C) both A & B

C)

And to take it a little farther. I am concerned player's are using other player's accounts for any reason whatsoever than legitimate account sitting times when a player has to be away from a computer themselves for a period of longer than 24 hours.

[lokisgal]

simple fact of the matter loki..in a quick defence of myself...
I play in games in which i have proven to be great at in clan challenges...i dont need someone to hold my hand and play my turns...and the same goes for everyone in empire. we dont put people in games they dont know.
We do however use excellent communication and that results in alot of the time my games getting low...you know living on the opposite side of the world and all...
and a baseball game in australia is a lengthy exercise...its a full day of 3 games including warm up and cool downs and social functions to go with....
the point is...as i told you when this all went down...file a god damm report about me if you think im breaking the sitting guidelines.

LOL - lovo a baseball game is 9 innings. Im fully aware of how long warm ups and so on take as well as social functions. My entire family is involved in baseball in one form or another and Im not talking about little league...... In any case if you have time to log on every 12 hours which you were doing you had time to take your turns -nuff said
Im not rehashing this again Im just using it as an example of what I consider to be abuse. Dont protest to much that never works out well
abuse is abuse its up to the mods to look into all of these things and come up with new rules for this - its out of hand with many clans . I could care less about losing a game but I do feel unless there are extreme circumstances you take all your turns unless you know you will be gone for more than 24 hours.


Anyway this thread isnt about you I know . hard to believe isnt it
this was just brought up as an example.

[drunkmonkey]

Maybe I'm just blind, but where is the Account Sitting Abuse rule posted?

[HardAttack]

More importantly, what I fear is going on behind the scenes here (and possibly in other clans too) is this player (and other players) are probably logging in and leading the strategy in games that they are not even in.

I'm trying to not post in here, but I will try to correct misled statements best I can. One of the best things about clans is that you have teammates who can teach you new strategies or recognize a move that you may not have considered. I have personally asked for a teammates advice here and there whether it be via a sunny game or via an image in a foggy game. I personally don't have an issue with clan members helping each other with strategy, even if it is in games they are not in. The excesses you are inferring to, to me is more about the spirit of clan wars rather than site law.

this can be achieved without logging in though...
back in the day before you had snaps you used to print screen and post in forums...why not do the same here for strat advice?

I'm with jpcloet on this. I see no problem with jumping on to look at a position and give advice, it's essentially the exact same thing as taking a screenshot and posting it but quicker. It is completely different than taking the turn yourself when the sittee is available to take their turn.

Btw, I have no dog in this fight at all, but after numerous complaints about behavior like this I at least would pause to reflect on the complaints and see if perhaps I should change the approach to sitting. We frequently have joked with opponents when a sitter has to take a turn, because of the perceived advantage given when a top player sits for someone else. That joke can quickly become sour if it's systematic.

I agree with dan and jpcloet in this.
There is no problem logging in account to see what is going on in foggy games, write comments etc.
Taking turn for em is something different.
Player A and B in same clan. Player A is playing a clan war game and asking for comments from player B for a particular game.
There are ways to make it.
1/The simplest way which is less time consuming is Player B logs in the Player A's account, then makes comments under the name of Player A.
2/If you take the longer way, player A takes a snapshot, copies it, visits photobucket to upload it, then copies the link and sends a PM...
Several PMs comes and goes, what cards you have got, your team mates has got etc...
Then player B makes anotoher post in which pictures a plan, draws a road plan...
Then player A takes the turn...
These both cases are same...If you are gonna say case 2 is fine but not case 1 then i really would like to ask what is the difference ?
If not, if you say case 1 wrong, then you should say case 2 is wrong too i guess.

[Chariot of Fire]

Maybe I'm just blind, but where is the Account Sitting Abuse rule posted?

Through the letterbox of KORT HQ

[Rodion]

viewtopic.php?p=3185833#p3185833

Bones, can you explain how you got that information?

It's hard not to think of it as a witch hunt when you were only able to design your accusation with information that you shouldn't have since you are not a mod.

Furthermore, if you want this to be a due proccess, I also request that you explain the source of your possible future "arguments" before you make me waste time looking for something that I can't find (since I don't have access to the mod forum and, apparently, you somehow do).

[SirSebstar]

Maybe I'm just blind, but where is the Account Sitting Abuse rule posted?

comminity guidelines. look for it in the forums top links

[Rodion]

Maybe I'm just blind, but where is the Account Sitting Abuse rule posted?

comminity guidelines. look for it in the forums top links

SirSebstar, Monkey and I were actually wasting our time on a fool's errand. We were looking for a paragraph that we would never be able to find because it is in the mod forums (check my Q&A post you answered).

[Night Strike]

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3185833#p3185833

Bones, can you explain how you got that information?

It's hard not to think of it as a witch hunt when you were only able to design your accusation with information that you shouldn't have since you are not a mod.

Furthermore, if you want this to be a due proccess, I also request that you explain the source of your possible future "arguments" before you make me waste time looking for something that I can't find (since I don't have access to the mod forum and, apparently, you somehow do).

Doesn't KORT have several moderators in the clan? Shouldn't they too be aware of the rule and realize that the actions of their clan members are breaking those rules?

[Bones2484]

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3185833#p3185833

Bones, can you explain how you got that information?

Sure, it was sent to me when I asked for specifics on what could be classified as Account Sitting Abuse in my discussions with moderators.

I have no intentions of sharing private messages that I have had, though, unless anyone from the Cheating/Abuse Team would like me to privately do so by using the report a PM functionality.

Furthermore, if you want this to be a due proccess, I also request that you explain the source of your possible future "arguments" before you make me waste time looking for something that I can't find (since I don't have access to the mod forum and, apparently, you somehow do).

I have no idea what you are referring to by "future arguments", but if you want links that you can find, try anything in the help section. In particular, Question 17:

You can, with the stipulation that the account babysitter is not your opponent in any current game. It is common courtesy to announce in game chat that another player will take your turn(s) during your absence. Babysitters should only do what is necessary to take the turn(s) and should not interact with the community, start or join new games (except for ongoing tournaments). Furthermore, you should only take another player's turn if they are in danger of missing a turn, not for the purpose of gaining a tactical advantage.

"Account Sitting Abuse" is also called out as a major infraction in the Community Guidelines at the top of the forum.

What I had sent to me is only a clarification of the above and aren't different rules. It's just greater definition and clarification to the terms, specifically "tactical advantage", so you cannot claim ignorance that this is unknown territory that was being broken.

[karelpietertje]

I was unable to find the bolded quote in the opening post of this thread anywhere. Why can't somebody just post a link?
Surely you cannot be accused of being a cheater based on guidelines that are not even public?

[Night Strike]

I was unable to find the bolded quote in the opening post of this thread anywhere. Why can't somebody just post a link?
Surely you cannot be accused of being a cheater based on guidelines that are not even public?

Actually, yes you can, because the rules clearly say you can't sit an account for a tactical advantage. I believe waiting so long to get advice for your games that the person giving the advice then has to take your turn for you is the definition of a "tactical advantage".

By the way, if you want to verify the existence of the rule, you should ask one of the moderators who are a member of your clan. They can not only verify that it exists, but that it existed well before the actions KORT is accused of in this thread.