Quad Cities Map [Quenched]

[isaiah40]

Pardon my newb-iness, but what happens now?

Now we wait for the XML to be checked, and then XML stamped, and then wait for MrBenn to send lack the files, then wait for lack to get the map live, AND THEN we play!!

[ironsij0287]

Awesome.

[the.killing.44]

oh my goodness gracious. this is in the final forge?

[isaiah40]

oh my goodness gracious. this is in the final forge?

Nah, it's just a very good figment of your imaginative mind!

[natty dread]

oh my goodness gracious. this is in the final forge?

Maybe you should stop by more often? You could give your expert opinion to maps before they arrive in FF, instead of pretty much useless comments on how a map is not where you think it should be...

[Incandenza]

oh my goodness gracious. this is in the final forge?

Maybe you should stop by more often? You could give your expert opinion to maps before they arrive in FF, instead of pretty much useless comments on how a map is not where you think it should be...

Not to put too fine a point on it, and apologies to the mapmaker, but this map isn't where anyone should think it should be. It's a barely-adequate visual representation of a third-or-fourth-tier american metropolitan area. The mediocre gfx would be fine if the map had really awesome and/or innovative gameplay, and the breathtakingly pedestrian setting would be okay if the gfx were of the first order, but sadly neither is the case. This map is screaming for a drastic overhaul, a la Puget Sound or American Civil War, but sadly I don't think enough of the old guard is around to prompt such positive change. Instead this very boring map will be quenched, and foundry standards will be shot all to hell. Forgive me if I sound like an old codger yelling at kids to get off his lawn, but the fact that this map is markedly inferior to its closest comparisons in gfx (vancouver), gameplay (north america), and setting (cairns coral coast) is a pretty serious indictment of the process that allowed it to get this far without comment. With basic gameplay, pedestrian setting, and barely-adequate gfx, this map simply brings nothing to the table. In all fairness, it should've been binned long ago, and the amount of time the mapmaker has put into the project should have zero bearing on whether or not the map is quenched.

Personally, I think that the only way a map of the quad cities could work is either with some innovative gameplay or some really breathtaking gfx. My apologies to natives of the area, but there's simply nothing at all compelling about that particular setting. IMHO, if the current map was quenched, it would be the worst quenched map in well over a year.

If you can point to a map of similar gameplay complexity that this map exceeds in gfx quality, that was quenched in the last year, I'd be happy to debate the point.

[ironsij0287]

Gameplay, maybe not, but there's a lot of garbage gfx-wise that has been put out there. Tamriel for example is barely legible. And frankly some maps are so overdone with graphics that they look like shit. Chicago for example aesthetically is rather gaudy. And other maps are so overworked with embossing and shadows that it distracts from the gameplay.

Perhaps you guys should go into the Graphics forum and make your opinion known there rather than here? I'm sure you would have plenty to say about the Portland map.

but this map isn't where anyone should think it should be.

If that were the case how did it get here? Contrary to your pompous assumption I have had people say they looked forward to playing it.

[AndyDufresne]

Gameplay, maybe not, but there's a lot of garbage gfx-wise that has been put out there. Tamriel for example is barely legible. And frankly some maps are so overdone with graphics that they look like shit. Chicago for example aesthetically is rather gaudy. And other maps are so overworked with embossing and shadows that it distracts from the gameplay.

It's hard to compare to Tamriel, since it was literally like the 15th map and not the 185th map---back when the Foundry was still finding its identity.

Perhaps you guys should go into the Graphics forum and make your opinion known there rather than here? I'm sure you would have plenty to say about the Portland map.

but this map isn't where anyone should think it should be.

If that were the case how did it get here? Contrary to your pompous assumption I have had people say they looked forward to playing it.

I made my opinions heard the graphics forum I think, about my feelings regarding the lack-luster legend. The rest of the map, while not that interesting, I think it works, or at least, is close to working on a simple aesthetic (Like Haiti, Classic, the USA Map pack).


--Andy

[ironsij0287]

It's hard to compare to Tamriel, since it was literally like the 15th map and not the 185th map---back when the Foundry was still finding its identity.

I didn't realize when it was made. That probably is a bad comparison.

If this really is considered to be one of the worst maps created in the last couple years, I'd rather just see it binned then. It sucks that I wasted that much time on it but I guess it's my fault for moving ahead with this map when in hindsight it was probably a weak concept from the beginning.

[AndyDufresne]

It's hard to compare to Tamriel, since it was literally like the 15th map and not the 185th map---back when the Foundry was still finding its identity.

I didn't realize when it was made. That probably is a bad comparison.

If this really is considered to be one of the worst maps created in the last couple years, I'd rather just see it binned then. It sucks that I wasted that much time on it but I guess it's my fault for moving ahead with this map when in hindsight it was probably a weak concept from the beginning.

I don't think it's one of the worst maps of the last couple of years, there are easily dozens that I would put much higher such a list.

I think the general layout is great for map. The concept/theme I'm ambivalent about, since it seemed like it was going in two directions---hints towards a more theme aesthetic (title, bridges), while also trying to be something just sleek like Charelston (colors, texture).


--Andy

[Incandenza]

It's hard to compare to Tamriel, since it was literally like the 15th map and not the 185th map---back when the Foundry was still finding its identity.

I didn't realize when it was made. That probably is a bad comparison.

If this really is considered to be one of the worst maps created in the last couple years, I'd rather just see it binned then. It sucks that I wasted that much time on it but I guess it's my fault for moving ahead with this map when in hindsight it was probably a weak concept from the beginning.

It's still a salvageable map, but you'd really need to step up the gameplay or the gfx, given the subject. Beyond that, think of it this way: you can take the things you've learned, both in terms of using gfx software and the foundry process itself, and make a kickass map that old curmudgeons like me don't complain about.

[natty dread]

That's the problem with you "old curmudgeons". You hide in your hiding places, whatever they may be, nattering on about how everything was better in the past, when mapmakers were given three spankings a day just to keep them on their toes. And pay no attention to the foundry process, until a map hits the final forge - then you jump out, saying "this is not good enough for me".

No offense, but where were you when the map was in GFX? Where were you when the mapmaker was asking for input on the graphics, or the gameplay? The foundry mods, mapmakers, etc. work with what they have. If they get no constructive criticism, how are they to know that some part of the map requires more attention?

Of course, there's nothing wrong with expressing your opinion about a map. And I'm not out to stop you from complaining when you see something you don't like. But you should think of it from the other guy's perspective... when a map is in FF, the mapmaker has already worked on it a lot, he's traveled a long journey to get there, and often had to pass hurdles that can feel frustrating especially to new mapmakers. When they finally have received all 3 stamps (yeah yeah, except XML) they feel they have accomplished something. The foundry mods give those stamps at their discretion. When a map has received those stamps, shouldn't you be complaining at the mods for giving those stamps, if you feel they were prematurely given? Not that I want to blame this on the mods either, they work as hard as they can, and if they see no one complaining, and can't spot any flaws themselves, what else are they to do but stamp it..?


TL;DR: The point is, the foundry is as good as the sum of it's participants. If you want the foundry to produce better maps, then ffs participate in the process and don't just stand loitering about the finish line and say "oh, here comes another crap one, my 5 year old could do that"....

[ironsij0287]

It's hard to compare to Tamriel, since it was literally like the 15th map and not the 185th map---back when the Foundry was still finding its identity.

I didn't realize when it was made. That probably is a bad comparison.

If this really is considered to be one of the worst maps created in the last couple years, I'd rather just see it binned then. It sucks that I wasted that much time on it but I guess it's my fault for moving ahead with this map when in hindsight it was probably a weak concept from the beginning.

It's still a salvageable map, but you'd really need to step up the gameplay or the gfx, given the subject. Beyond that, think of it this way: you can take the things you've learned, both in terms of using gfx software and the foundry process itself, and make a kickass map that old curmudgeons like me don't complain about.

Yeah, my next map is going to take a lot of what I've learned this time round into consideration.

[thenobodies80]

I would like to give some suggestions:

I think that the image you used for the legend background isn't the best solution. In general a images like that are better if used into the map itself than for the legend.
In addition it is a bit fuzzy, so it isn't so easy to look at the bonuses.
The bridges also need some care, you should give them a sort of consistence in terms of size and perspective, right now they're a mess.
Your rivers have a sort of gradient and it's ok if you want to give them a nicer look, but first of all i think it should be the opposite...or the mississippi River is deeper along the banks?
Then you should try with different shadows of blue? Something a bit softer for eyes? Again about the rivers....i think that it was page 4 of this thread when i suggested you to try to have less "sharped" banks, the rivers by their nature tend to create gentle curves rather than abrupt changes of direction.
If you have some abbreviation that needs to be "explained" somewhere on the map
Do you really need the text in the left corner? Maybe it's just that I'm not american but I don't really care about a single word of it...(no offence )
Nothing more interesting to place in that corner?

Work a bit more on this map, some betterments can certainly be done.

Nobodies

[RjBeals]

Click image to enlarge.

There's only so much graphic criticism you can give. If the map maker is persistent enough, it will get quenched. There is no bar for CC maps. Just patience really. I will say that the foundry has spawned some good cartographers. But as we've said for years, there should be some more rigid criteria for maps to become quenched (again, besides patience).

I still find it odd that this map is called "quad" cities, but there's 5 unique names under the title, and 14 bonus regions. yeah yeah, i see the blurb in the upper left, but still.

I would suggest that iron visit the cartogrphersguild and browse the maps there, as well as the tutorials. If he truely is interested in the graphics end that is.

Now... I'm back off to my hiding place

[AndyDufresne]

There's only so much graphic criticism you can give. If the map maker is persistent enough, it will get quenched. There is no bar for CC maps. Just patience really. I will say that the foundry has spawned some good cartographers. But as we've said for years, there should be some more rigid criteria for maps to become quenched (again, besides patience).

I think it is a little narrow to say there is no bar for CC maps. But that is discussion for outside this development topic!


--Andy

[army of nobunaga]

oh my goodness gracious. this is in the final forge?

Maybe you should stop by more often? You could give your expert opinion to maps before they arrive in FF, instead of pretty much useless comments on how a map is not where you think it should be...

Not to put too fine a point on it, and apologies to the mapmaker, but this map isn't where anyone should think it should be. It's a barely-adequate visual representation of a third-or-fourth-tier american metropolitan area. The mediocre gfx would be fine if the map had really awesome and/or innovative gameplay, and the breathtakingly pedestrian setting would be okay if the gfx were of the first order, but sadly neither is the case. This map is screaming for a drastic overhaul, a la Puget Sound or American Civil War, but sadly I don't think enough of the old guard is around to prompt such positive change. Instead this very boring map will be quenched, and foundry standards will be shot all to hell. Forgive me if I sound like an old codger yelling at kids to get off his lawn, but the fact that this map is markedly inferior to its closest comparisons in gfx (vancouver), gameplay (north america), and setting (cairns coral coast) is a pretty serious indictment of the process that allowed it to get this far without comment. With basic gameplay, pedestrian setting, and barely-adequate gfx, this map simply brings nothing to the table. In all fairness, it should've been binned long ago, and the amount of time the mapmaker has put into the project should have zero bearing on whether or not the map is quenched.

Personally, I think that the only way a map of the quad cities could work is either with some innovative gameplay or some really breathtaking gfx. My apologies to natives of the area, but there's simply nothing at all compelling about that particular setting. IMHO, if the current map was quenched, it would be the worst quenched map in well over a year.

If you can point to a map of similar gameplay complexity that this map exceeds in gfx quality, that was quenched in the last year, I'd be happy to debate the point.

Personally, I think that the only way a map of the quad cities could work is either with some innovative gameplay or some really breathtaking gfx. My apologies to natives of the area, but there's simply nothing at all compelling about that particular setting. IMHO, if the current map was quenched, it would be the worst quenched map in well over a year.

This is an opinion... and in my opinion utter rubbish. Dude have you even played some of the utter garbage maps that have been released this last year? I love how you are like so many people and think "some innovative gameplay or some really breathtaking gfx" is the road to a good map.


The lines are straight, the colors are great. It looks great. It will play like a champ with a lot of depth.


This is a great map. Ill put my thousands of games and being cross-mapped 100% on the line and say this is damn fine piece of work.

[army of nobunaga]

I would like to just say, wwod?

what would oaktown do? This reminds me of a few of his masterpieces.

Why does a map have to read like heiro-friggin-glyphics or have trains planes or automobiles, why does a map have to have one way attacks auto-deploys, and super bonuses.

Why are maps only considered good if they are so damn complicated and busy to the eye?

Madagascar is my great example. One of the best maps on the game. Both to look at and play.


This seems like a crime right here.

I say get this to beta.


More Duck and cover More chinese checkers More Brazil More Lux More MAdigascar More connect 4 More simple and fun maps for the win.

Maps like this test the player, the player doesnt have to use gimmicks and tricks to win. Death to maps that you have to be an archaeologist and engineer to figure out.

[jefjef]

A bit harsh Icand.

The maps graphics are more pleasing then, lets say, that eyesore of a map Hive.

I do wish an actual native had some input to this instead some others...

As I have suggested previously the game play really needs Dav/Mount joy airport and Moline Airport to connect. get creative with the bonus if that is a real concern. Make Moline a 1 bonus or an auto deploy or just a neutral region part of no bonus.. Without the connect the game play/strategy seems stale.

But the map itself is better than a few that are in play.

@rjb... The area is known as the QCA. (Quad Cities Area)

[army of nobunaga]

bettendorf'er here jeff.

This map has all the places in place.

your suggestions are fine, I just want to take the stance that this map really should not have to have or need any auto-deploys, or connecting airports. Those are map "gimmicks" usually in my opinion. Yeah sometimes you really have to connect places through airports to stop a bottleneck in an unwanted place. But I think a lot of times airports and such are just added as gimmicks to up the "wow" "cool" factor.

To be honest, I cannot guess with certainty how this will play out in beta gameplay... my hunch is it will be a pretty good chess match tactics type of map.

[Incandenza]

This is an opinion... and in my opinion utter rubbish. Dude have you even played some of the utter garbage maps that have been released this last year? I love how you are like so many people and think "some innovative gameplay or some really breathtaking gfx" is the road to a good map.

The lines are straight, the colors are great. It looks great. It will play like a champ with a lot of depth.

This is a great map. Ill put my thousands of games and being cross-mapped 100% on the line and say this is damn fine piece of work.

Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, as of course is jefjef. Tho in his case, I think there's a bit of the excitement of seeing what I'd presume to be his hometown (or at least an area with which he's very familiar) being brought to life in a CC map. That's 100% understandable, and I don't begrudge him his excitement.

But I'm not going to back off my opinion that maps, at their heart, need to bring something to the table in one of the three areas that make a map: gameplay, gfx, and settings (more or less in that order of importance). Otherwise, what's the point?

The gameplay isn't bad, but it's very much of a niche: the mid-large basic gameplay map, of which there's an abundance. And I don't think this map does that particular gameplay layout any better than Vancouver, or Charleston, or Cairns Coral Coast, or North America (granted, NA is ugly, but that's not the point). You mention Hive, which isn't a valid comparison. Hive offers gameplay unlike anything else on the site, and whether you personally like that gameplay or not, there;'s no dispute that it's unique, which is the point.

The gfx, well, they're certainly competent and workmanlike (and far exceed what could be achieved by yours truly), and they're much better than old maps or some recent complex maps. But it's certainly not up to the standard set by the two maps that I'd say it's most like, Vancouver and Charleston.

The setting is the setting, for lack of a better way of putting it. I've got nothing against the quad cities, but it's not exactly the most dynamic setting for a map.

I understand people's frustrations at criticism at this late stage. But there is a long and glorious tradition here in the foundry of old-timers coming out of the woodwork once a map hits final forge that, fairly or unfairly, they don't believe lives up to the standards that they've set. And every single time that's happened, the result was a better map. We're not heartless ballbusters, everyone who spends time here has a vested interest in collaborating with mapmakers new and veteran to create the best maps possible. With so many maps now, it takes a little something extra to distinguish a new map from the crowd. And I don't think quad cities is there yet.

That being said, I'm not going to be Horatio on the bridge here. Clearly my opinion is in the minority, and that's cool. But there's something to be learned from the old-timers.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go yell at my TV and pray that somehow Pau Gasol gets his mojo back.

[the.killing.44]

Dude have you even played some of the utter garbage maps that have been released this last year?

No, and that's kind of the point.

[army of nobunaga]

This is an opinion... and in my opinion utter rubbish. Dude have you even played some of the utter garbage maps that have been released this last year? I love how you are like so many people and think "some innovative gameplay or some really breathtaking gfx" is the road to a good map.

The lines are straight, the colors are great. It looks great. It will play like a champ with a lot of depth.

This is a great map. Ill put my thousands of games and being cross-mapped 100% on the line and say this is damn fine piece of work.

Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, as of course is jefjef. Tho in his case, I think there's a bit of the excitement of seeing what I'd presume to be his hometown (or at least an area with which he's very familiar) being brought to life in a CC map. That's 100% understandable, and I don't begrudge him his excitement.

But I'm not going to back off my opinion that maps, at their heart, need to bring something to the table in one of the three areas that make a map: gameplay, gfx, and settings (more or less in that order of importance). Otherwise, what's the point?

The gameplay isn't bad, but it's very much of a niche: the mid-large basic gameplay map, of which there's an abundance. And I don't think this map does that particular gameplay layout any better than Vancouver, or Charleston, or Cairns Coral Coast, or North America (granted, NA is ugly, but that's not the point). You mention Hive, which isn't a valid comparison. Hive offers gameplay unlike anything else on the site, and whether you personally like that gameplay or not, there;'s no dispute that it's unique, which is the point.

The gfx, well, they're certainly competent and workmanlike (and far exceed what could be achieved by yours truly), and they're much better than old maps or some recent complex maps. But it's certainly not up to the standard set by the two maps that I'd say it's most like, Vancouver and Charleston.

The setting is the setting, for lack of a better way of putting it. I've got nothing against the quad cities, but it's not exactly the most dynamic setting for a map.

I understand people's frustrations at criticism at this late stage. But there is a long and glorious tradition here in the foundry of old-timers coming out of the woodwork once a map hits final forge that, fairly or unfairly, they don't believe lives up to the standards that they've set. And every single time that's happened, the result was a better map. We're not heartless ballbusters, everyone who spends time here has a vested interest in collaborating with mapmakers new and veteran to create the best maps possible. With so many maps now, it takes a little something extra to distinguish a new map from the crowd. And I don't think quad cities is there yet.

That being said, I'm not going to be Horatio on the bridge here. Clearly my opinion is in the minority, and that's cool. But there's something to be learned from the old-timers.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go yell at my TV and pray that somehow Pau Gasol gets his mojo back.

You know you are one of the people I have never had a problem with and pretty much like here. But we will have to agree to disagree.

CC has set the standard that they allow maps that go through the process become played. There are 185 at the moment. Im not going to name names, because that is a different can of worms, but there are 10-20 maps that are very ugly and have very bad game play, and frank a few are absolutely unreadable.


This map will be fun. I think we need to give it a chance in beta. The guy has gone through ALL the hoops. I will name one name, and not to try to insult you , but mainly to drive my point home...

Clandimonium is one of the worse maps Ive ever played or seen. It went through with many of us looking at it and thinking "you have to be kidding" and we thought that and messaged each other that for many many a long time as clandimonium went through the mapmaking gauntlet ... .. but it went through because the map went through all the hoops and hurdles and paid its due. And in its final forge, I kept my mouth shut.


I just think the process of critiques such as this need to happen long before this stage, and Im not agreeing with most of the critiques.

I have added the nobunaga 2 cents and its probably really worth .000002 cents , ill leave this horse alone now. I do hope that this makes it to beta.


cheers.

[danfrank]

I agree that this map should go to beta , as is. I have seen many maps that were excellent and to my liking but the Foundry Assistants nitpicked it to death and these maps never made it to beta and the makers ultimately left CC. Although the setting does nothing for me and i can find plenty of reasons why the map should not go to beta , it went through the hoops.

In order for the foundry to keep it`s INTEGRITY , it must be done.

[Incandenza]

AoN, I'm 100% willing to agree to disagree. I think it's pretty obvious that we simply have different tastes in maps (and possibly game types, wherein lies my big weakness as an evaluator of maps: I tend to see everything thru the filter of head-to-head team games).

I wouldn't classify Clandemonium as a particularly attractive map, and I've never played it so I can't comment on the gameplay, but at least the setting is something different. But I'll concede the point, mostly because I don't think the two maps are particularly comparable, and I certainly didn't intend to argue a given map's merits against quad cities, 'cause that sorta defeats the purpose.

And you're right, in a perfect world all criticism would come early and often. But that's a little unrealistic, people have lives and varying interests in the foundry. It's impossible to follow every map, and sometimes people simply don't see a map until it reaches the forge.

Do I want to keep this map from being quenched? Not if the community at large (and the boys in blue) disagree with me. The community, generally speaking, gets what it wants. I'm just trying to nudge the community in what, IMHO, I think is a positive direction.