Empire vs IA (Final) [22-20 of 42] EMPIRE WINS!!

[ljex]

If I was in this war the only fair thing to do would be to restart both games. IA claims hive swung to Empire. Empire claims it was already theirs. IA has the lead in NA, while Empire said they were effected. 2 turns got messed up in NA, and 2 in hive(counting slow breaking the agreement being worked out as per chat). To make all sides happy remake the 2 games and move on. That is what I would do.

do you really have a right to come into a challenge that you are not even part of and decide what is fair? Especially considering your track record with making fair decisions in clan challenges you have no right to post your opinions here.

If I was in this war the only fair thing to do would be to restart both games. IA claims hive swung to Empire. Empire claims it was already theirs. IA has the lead in NA, while Empire said they were effected. 2 turns got messed up in NA, and 2 in hive(counting slow breaking the agreement being worked out as per chat). To make all sides happy remake the 2 games and move on. That is what I would do.

no you'd make us forfeit 21 games..

I'm sure Bruce was only attempting to take some of the stink out of the thread.

Whether he is right or wrong to have done so, I don't think it warranted these insults. They don't help and certainly don't look very classy.

Bruce knows enough about Hive to see from the log that we were going to win that game and you can see from NA as it is sunny that the game was a slight lead IA. It is no secret that Bruce has some problem with EMPIRE and me personally for that matter while he is a former member of IA and probably still good friends with some of them. So he seriously shouldn't be posting in here as anything he posts will be skewed towards IA's side as we can see from his above statement. Any remake of games would be unfair, as our lead in Hive was way more substantial than theirs in NA, and we lost 12 in hive to their 9 from chuck timing out his turn.

do you really have a right to come into a challenge that you are not even part of and decide what is fair? Especially considering your track record with making fair decisions in clan challenges you have no right to post your opinions here.

no, he hasnt right to do it, but you had totally right to come into TOFU-KORT thread which in any way you were not part of and writing multiple posts about what was fair and what was unfair
especially considering your track record with writing extremely fair and honorable chat notes in Game 6606144

back ontopic....

Really bringing up that game from well over a year ago again? Do you save that so you can post it when you want to drag my name through the mud. I believe i apologized already for that and you said we would let it go, apparently you still wont. Beyond that what does that chat have to do with being fair? Anyway you can keep posting that if you want but next time please post it when it is related to the subject at hand and not just throw it in there when you disagree with me. What exactly is "fair and honorable chat notes" I can see how you can't label that honorable as it is not but what is unfair about it?

Oh and about my posts in the TOFU-KORT thread that was a black and white issue where everyone had all the facts of the situation. Yes I know there was not much love between the 2 clans as a result of what happened during that war but the circumstances of that doesn't change anything. COF played 21 games partially because you didn't update the thread properly (he says this is partially why but i guess we don't know for sure) and KORT made them forfeit all 21 games. I think most can agree and even some in your clan that the punishment you gave was unfair and there were better solutions to that issue that could be made in retrospect. This on the other hand is not a black and white issue, there is no good way to handle it based on the way the site works. I would be glad if we could go back to the point the games were at right before the glitchy turns happened but that is not the case. Nothing is perfectly fair in this situation and we really just have to live with that fact in this situation. In KORT-TOFU the mistake was made by a player, a rather minor one at that, and it resulted in deciding the challenge something everyone can say is unfair even those from KORT can't actually believe they made a truly fair decision. I guess I could be wrong but based on all the rule changes made to future challenges and that in my opinion KORT would not have liked the decision if they were on the other end. Anyway our problem is the result of a site glitch something neither clan had any control over where neither clan made a mistake to give the other clan the power to decide. There is no solution that both clans will be happy with, and basically all that happened was that each clan increased the advantage they already had in the game which basically balance's out. A remake of the games would be unfair to whichever clan had a bigger lead in the game they were ahead in. At this point it is not possible to put the games back to where they were, and the putting the armies down would not do much to fix the game for IA as we lowered their deploy as a result instead of them lowering ours...apparently. There is no clear cut solution to this issue, and the default will be that both clans got screwed in one game so just leave it be or cut the games out of the challenge, either way it will end in a wash as IA is going to win NA now unless we get some magical dice.

[ljex]

You bringing up a game from more that a year ago just to support your case isn't any better, that doesn't really have a bearing on who ljex is today, and if I remember correctly, you've brought this up before and it's been addressed...

the same analogy for ljex's mentioning bruce... he brought up a situation from several months ago that doesnt really have a bearing on who bruce is today, and if I remember correctly, it was brought up before in other thread and it's been adressed. so, point of my post in anyway isnt different than point of ljex's post. actually, his point is worse because he obstructed bruce in active trying to help with his opinion in EMPIRE-IA issue, with the only point of his post to bring past issue here (as no other constructive thing mentioned in addition of his post), while second part of my post is constructive, about current issue.

Sorry about yet another double post but me mentioning bruces past in deciding things about clan challenges does relate, some game from over a year ago for me does not. Especially because that game chat has nothing to do with being fair and the issue i brought up does.

Anyway I will stop posting now

[dowian2]

For a challenge this close between two top-ten clans, there's nowhere near enough trash talk in this thread.

Hey IA, you suck!

Yeeesh... you guys didn't have to take me so seriously...

How about this for a solution - we'll just win 23-19, and then it won't be an issue

[jj3044]

For a challenge this close between two top-ten clans, there's nowhere near enough trash talk in this thread.

Hey IA, you suck!

Yeeesh... you guys didn't have to take me so seriously...

How about this for a solution - we'll just win 23-19, and then it won't be an issue

Best idea yet, Doug!!

[josko.ri]

@ ljex...

the only thing which provoked me to bring our past game here is that you were the first brought Bruce's past issue here. it is not correct by you to say to bruce to step out of this issue, if noone said to you to step out from TOFU-KORT issue. you were free to come there and say your opinion, and no matter that your opinion was always on TOFU side, nobody asked you if you really have a right to come into a challenge that you are not even part of and decide what is fair.
you were free to come there and say your opinion, the same like bruce is free to come here and say his opinion. if you do not agree with bruce's opinion, then answer why you dont agree, but dont bring past issue here. the issue had sepatrate thread for it, so you could say there anything what you wanted, it is no need to poison this thread with the issue which in any way is not connected with this clan war.

So he seriously shouldn't be posting in here as anything he posts will be skewed towards IA's side as we can see from his above statement.

So you seriously shouldn't be posting in KORT-TOFU thread as anything you posted was be skewed towards TOFU's side as we can see from all your statements. but, you posted a lot in that thread, so bruce has right to post a lot in this thread.

What exactly is "fair and honorable chat notes" I can see how you can't label that honorable as it is not but what is unfair about it?

do me a favor go f*ck yourself

that is from that game chat. I think calling other player in game by these words are not great fairness nad honor. if you think it is, then my quoting that game is only praise you.

Oh and about my posts in the TOFU-KORT thread that was a black and white issue

for you it was black and white, for me it was grey. opinions are different. if you think it was black and white, that doesnt mean that it was really black and white. I think I know more about that issue than you as I was active part of the war from very beginning, while you were only spectator.

[Lubawski]

I would appreciate this thread staying on topic. If anyone wants to talk with Ljex or LV about them coming back at Bruce, please do it via PM and not in this thread.

I haven't seen any IA posts other than game chat since my timing out. With the time out and the glitch, lokisgal lost 9 armies, I lost 12, is everyone going to be okay with this result so there should be no more complaining in that game?

I, along with everyone else in Empire I think, am okay with this and okay with us not really doing anything else in NA. I just hope we can move past this, enjoy the rest of the challenge and have some fun competitions.

As for the hive game, let me clear up what has happened since. The site caused Loki to not be able to attack. She DID deploy, which our side seems to have missed. Chuck started his turn and did not deploy, so he lost 12 armies plus no attack. I think that more than makes up for any difference Loki's attack dice would have made. Let's move on.

[josko.ri]

She DID deploy, which our side seems to have missed.

that is the issue. she did deploy, but her troops did not appear in regions where she clicked. it did not appear at all, so deploy dissapeared due to site bug.

[Lubawski]

She DID deploy, which our side seems to have missed.

that is the issue. she did deploy, but her troops did not appear in regions where she clicked. it did not appear at all, so deploy dissapeared due to site bug.

Ok. My bad. I read the game log and it shows here deploying. I didn't realize that is what the bug was. Nonetheless, we still have sacrificed 3 more troops there and equaled out the no attack by Chuck forfeiting his turn. In NA, Dwilhelmi notified them of the mere 4 hours remaining because of the glitch and we lost our deploy/attack. Nothing has been sacrificed by IA in that game to my knowledge, nor are we asking for it. I think we have been more than fair. Site glitches happen, and at this point, the disadvantage is on our side, but we are not complaining. We would prefer to keep to the challenge, turn the NA game in our favor anyway, and win this challenge.

[Lubawski]

IM awaiting to hear back from mkcummins - no its not ok and no offense lub Im no noob at hive and your assumption that the game was lost incorrect.

At the time of the glitch, here was the state of things:
EMPIRE
Chuck, 42 regions
LV 57 regions
JJ 66 regions
Slow 30 regions

IA
Aaarg 36 regions
JBoy 59 regions
Loki 29 regions
Forza 25 regions

I'm not sure if ANYONE would say that was a slight advantage for EMPIRE. It's pretty well insurmountable with a no cards game. Your argument is that you would have brought slow down some is quite weak. Chuck sacrificing his turn (after he was down to 39 territories with Forza's attack on him) means you will be able to take him below 36. If anything, it is now IA that is benefiting because of the glitch and Chuck's sacrifice. Your insistence to keep this going after we have been more than fair, especially without IA making any concessions in NA is showing you to be something I did not think you were.

[Dako]

No one will be happy with the solution because everyone will think that the other party has tricked them and made them lose the games.

Hive was clearly past the recovering point. Haven't seen NA game so cannot comment on that. But I think playing the games out is equally fair to everyone. Even more fair seeing what Chuuuuck just did there (I salute you mate, what a classy move).

As for TOFU-KORT issue... forget about it. I mean, do not mention it, it is not a big deal for TOFU anymore. Everyone will blame KORT here for a long time I think, and every KORT member (or most of them) will say they did the right think and will see no problems with their decision. They will just have to live with the impact their decision has made - because it is clearly that they cannot convince anyone here they did the right thing. 21 penalty rule was their choice. Yeah, you can remind them about that, but I doubt it will do any good to any other discussion on the site. It is the past, all of us will remember it, but we live in the present.

[TheSpaceCowboy]

The best case scenario would be for the management of the site to reset the games to the places where the glitches occurred. However, as beersurfer so eloquently mused in the NA game chat, this is not likely to happen.

As it is, Chu(x4)ck has graciously tried to make amends for something that was not his fault in Hive by sacrificing a turn. We can only hope that IA will do something similar in NA, although they are under no obligation to do this. It would be sporting, though.

The only real solution is to play these games out as they are and chalk it up to something that is out of the control of everyone.

I think Empire has done its best to be fair in this. I would applaud Dwilhelmi for his part as well. When he took his turn and realized that the 24 hour clock did not reset, he messaged IA to tell them that they only had 4 hours on their turn. These couple of gestures, along with Chuck's sacrifice are very noteworthy regarding the sportsmanship expected in clan warfare.

Continuing good luck wished to the participants in these games.

[Chuuuuck]

IM awaiting to hear back from mkcummins - no its not ok and no offense lub Im no noob at hive and your assumption that the game was lost incorrect.

At the time of the glitch, here was the state of things:
EMPIRE
Chuck, 42 regions
LV 57 regions
JJ 66 regions
Slow 30 regions

IA
Aaarg 36 regions
JBoy 59 regions
Loki 29 regions
Forza 25 regions

I'm not sure if ANYONE would say that was a slight advantage for EMPIRE. It's pretty well insurmountable with a no cards game. Your argument is that you would have brought slow down some is quite weak. Chuck sacrificing his turn (after he was down to 39 territories with Forza's attack on him) means you will be able to take him below 36. If anything, it is now IA that is benefiting because of the glitch and Chuck's sacrifice. Your insistence to keep this going after we have been more than fair, especially without IA making any concessions in NA is showing you to be something I did not think you were.

These are the facts of the game and the reason I keep getting frustrated with loki, she wants to keep talking about how she could of lowered slows deploy and got her count up and how my miss doesn't make up for it. While she is right that she could of lowered slows deploy by maybe 1, you can't say my miss doesn't make up for it. You all would not of gotten me below 36 before my turn, and i would of deployed 12 and attacked out getting my territory count back up, while lowering pink orange and smoke all at the same time. But instead, I missed the turn, I lost the 12 armies I didn't deploy and on top of that I will lose even more because now you all surely will have me below 36 before my next turn when you most likely would not of by next round with me picking up 5-10 territories on my turn. AND, on top of that, you all gain territories through your deploys by me not lowering pink from 36, orange from 29 and smoke from 25. If you still think my miss doesn't more than compensate yours, than you are delusional with a skewed opinion on the matter and there is no real reason in arguing it any farther. On top of that, everyone who has looked at the game in detail have nearly all agreed that the game was already going to Empire with little to no chance of a comeback...

[Namor]

If you regard any glitch as being 'the rub of the green' (same as a poor roll of the dice) then you have to accept that it could have happened to either side. If it's you that was affected, it's tough luck, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

The fact that Empire appear to be bending over backwards to put this right, shows them as playing more fair than they need be. If IA can't accept Empire's friendly gesture then they are in danger of coming out of this, as the bad guys. Something that could come back to bite them for many months (ask Bruce how that feels).

This is not intended to reflect, good or bad, on either clan. I, like most here, would love to see these two respected clans, resolve the issue, before another 6 pages have been added to the thread.

[Leehar]

IM awaiting to hear back from mkcummins - no its not ok and no offense lub Im no noob at hive and your assumption that the game was lost incorrect.

At the time of the glitch, here was the state of things:
EMPIRE
Chuck, 42 regions
LV 57 regions
JJ 66 regions
Slow 30 regions

IA
Aaarg 36 regions
JBoy 59 regions
Loki 29 regions
Forza 25 regions

I'm not sure if ANYONE would say that was a slight advantage for EMPIRE. It's pretty well insurmountable with a no cards game. Your argument is that you would have brought slow down some is quite weak. Chuck sacrificing his turn (after he was down to 39 territories with Forza's attack on him) means you will be able to take him below 36. If anything, it is now IA that is benefiting because of the glitch and Chuck's sacrifice. Your insistence to keep this going after we have been more than fair, especially without IA making any concessions in NA is showing you to be something I did not think you were.

These are the facts of the game and the reason I keep getting frustrated with loki, she wants to keep talking about how she could of lowered slows deploy and got her count up and how my miss doesn't make up for it. While she is right that she could of lowered slows deploy by maybe 1, you can't say my miss doesn't make up for it. You all would not of gotten me below 36 before my turn, and i would of deployed 12 and attacked out getting my territory count back up, while lowering pink orange and smoke all at the same time. But instead, I missed the turn, I lost the 12 armies I didn't deploy and on top of that I will lose even more because now you all surely will have me below 36 before my next turn when you most likely would not of by next round with me picking up 5-10 territories on my turn. AND, on top of that, you all gain territories through your deploys by me not lowering pink from 36, orange from 29 and smoke from 25. If you still think my miss doesn't more than compensate yours, than you are delusional with a skewed opinion on the matter and there is no real reason in arguing it any farther. On top of that, everyone who has looked at the game in detail have nearly all agreed that the game was already going to Empire with little to no chance of a comeback...

tbh, this line of argument isn't very productive, but I don't think loki's necessarily wrong. Obviously there's been a lot more discussion in the hive game then over here, but we can clearly say that even tho nobody's really arguing over the point that Empire had an advantage, but that doesn't have to mean the game was beyond doubt. I'm sure we've all been involved in games where even if one side is leading whether it's large or not, there have been comebacks before. I'm not sure or not if it's happened on Hive, but it is possible that leads like that are not insurmountable. Obv as Lub says it's harder in no cards, but the fact that it's fog makes judgement calls that much harder. We know the regions disparity was large, but on the other hand, the troops due were 46-44 so who knows if Loki could have gotten it to equal basis by the end of her turn, and from there, anythings possible. But again, this shouldn't really mean much since 'What if's' are never useful, but there are so many myriad details in deciding games that it can never be easy arguing about what really would have made a difference.

Obv as everyone mentioned getting the game back to how it was before may be the best solution, but Jpc does mention that it's an unlikely scenario, so going forward I'm not really sure what the best solution would be. However, Loki does seem to feel that they did have a chance in that Hive game (which is very much her prerogative), and I can't really stand here and tell her that she's wrong. But what I do feel is incorrect is that everyone is seemingly trying to forcefeed the solution (to continue the games as is) to IA. Perhaps thats not the case, but it does seem a lot like it...
If IA doesn't like the solution thats being offered, then again thats their decision, and from what I understand the clan leaders are trying to best decide the best way to resolve this, and I feel that discussion is whats really needed, instead of arbitrarily deciding whats best which has seemed to often be the sentiments expressed here. Empire's friendly gestures are indeed laudable, but if IA doesn't want to accept the overtures or make similar gestures of their, that shouldn't need to count against them either. From what I can see Empires expressed the desire to continue the games as is, and IA is leaning towards remaking the games? (Both routes have their own benefits, but what can be the best middle ground if neither wants to budge?)

[slowreactor]

OK I just want to clarify what happened on my turn:

This whole week I have had bad internet connection, so I was rushing through my turns trying to make sure I don't time out, and I took this turn by accident. I did not mean to break any treaties, and if needed to, I will miss my next turn to compensate for this turn.

slow

[Denise]

EMPIRE will budge, and has. Chuck timed out Hive, and we didn't insist on the same gesture from IA in North America. Whatever chance IA has lost in hive, we have lost an equal amount in North America, yet we are willing to let that play out without another word of complaint. Slow, no worries. I believe IA's complaints about your taking your turn and not timing out could be countered by IA doing the same thing in NA, if EMPIRE were inclined to make an issue of it.

[Chuuuuck]

Leehar, I respectfully agree with your opinion, that they don't have to accept the fact that we tried to make it even. But at the same time, as you said, everyone tends to agree we had an advantage. So at the same time we don't have to accept and I would imagine we won't accept remaking the game. Whereas we have tried to make this even and right to the best we can, remaking a game that we have a clear advantage in is not making it right to us whatsoever.

[jj3044]

We know the regions disparity was large, but on the other hand, the troops due were 46-44 so who knows if Loki could have gotten it to equal basis by the end of her turn, and from there, anythings possible.

Leehar, I would agree with some of the points in your comment, but not this one. Through the fog you can't tell how many bonus's either side had, and being in the game, i can tell you that the disparity was much larger than you indicate above. Also, the region count was 195 (EMPIRE) to 149 (IA). Let me remind everyone that this was a no spoils game. The facts are not in dispute.

The point of the matter is that we tried to accommodate a change that would be fair in the Hive game (according to what we thought would be an appropriate concession). Weather or not IA thinks it was "enough" is irrelevant. We were not required to make ANY concession, yet did so willingly, because we gained an advantage in Hive, and recognize that fact (although in our expert opinion, a 195-149 lead is too large to come back from in Hive). No such concession has been made by IA in the North America game after they gained an advantage from the glitch, but we are also not requesting one. That game, unlike Hive, was even at the time of the glitch, so in the context of both games, EMPIRE has had the bad end of this.

That being said, being on the bad end of this, we still would be fine without any concession in NA, because we think even without that game, we will have a good shot at winning this challenge.

That being said, gl to IA in the remainder of the games.

[lokisgal]

Again I want to state that the leaders are in the process of working this out
And what your bob told you is way off. I have a screen shot as well your bob estimates and my bob estimated things very differently as is such the case in fog games. From our end the numbers are quite different.
Lets leave it at that and let the leaders sort this out we are close to a solution

[lord voldemort]

if you believe bob in everything you do then there is something wrong. without giving away details you would need to be holding some major bonus's which you dont...and you need to average more than 2 on every one of your fogged territories for the game to be tied in troup count...which you wont even be close to. I know you want to think you still have a chance...but its honestly a formality now. Im amazed you cannot see that. and just saying you have a snap shot isnt gonna change that...im sure both teams have snap shots of the entire games.

[TheSpaceCowboy]

Again I want to state that the leaders are in the process of working this out
And what your bob told you is way off. I have a screen shot as well your bob estimates and my bob estimated things very differently as is such the case in fog games. From our end the numbers are quite different.
Lets leave it at that and let the leaders sort this out we are close to a solution

What leaders are you working with?

[Dako]

As a tech guy I can say that restoring games to the point they were before the glitch is highly impossible. Unless you convince lack to do a manual work for this 2 games for some hours it will not happen.

[Chuuuuck]

Again I want to state that the leaders are in the process of working this out
And what your bob told you is way off. I have a screen shot as well your bob estimates and my bob estimated things very differently as is such the case in fog games. From our end the numbers are quite different.
Lets leave it at that and let the leaders sort this out we are close to a solution

What leaders are you working with?

LoL. I kind of wondered the same thing, but she is talking to Marty. I laughed when she got on to me saying we wouldn't listen to what our leader told us to do like we had one sole fearless leader who has been our leader forever. I love and respect Marty but we do have three listed leaders, including you cowboy, and I am fairly certain most everyone will still listen to what Lubawski has to say.

I am also fairly certain that most everyone in Empire, including most of our leaders, feels we have done our best to try and make the game fair that we benefited from, while IA has done nothing to the effect. No one in our clan feels remaking the games is fair to us since we had one decided win and a fairly even with slight advantage IA so I don't think remaking the game will happen.

[lord voldemort]

my comment in our private still stands...
i think empire is 100% on the same thought process as to what has happened and needs to happen in relation to this challenge...we all move as won group

[Ninja Champion]

I'll throw my opinion into the mix here. Let's forget about any existing advantages held on Hive before this bug. Lokis, you did not deploy nor attack anything on your turn when the bug happened, yes you missed the opportunity to lower slowreactors deploy and yes, your territory count will be down for your next turn.

Is this not the exact same that will happen to Chuuuuck for his next turn? It's very unfortunate this bug had to happen, but any advantage empire had because of the bug alone will be an identical advantage for your team due to Chuuuuck's conceded turn. My time spent was thinking mainly of a solution for north america, as I am in that game. I agree that the two games should be considered separately, but in ways a solution to NA would be more complex.

This is mainly due to VampireM missing a turn, because of this vamp missed the opportunity to make any planned attacks for his turn, therefore if we wanted a completely fair solution to North America, we would need to agree on which of the 4 of you on IA would concede your turn (ie, start the turn and allow time to expire) AND decide which player on Empire would miss a turn. But then we would have to discuss who from each team would do these in attempt to balance out this bug, the 4 of us in that game decided it was simply not worth the time for both clans to discuss all that for being down 3 troops.

Empire also stands firm that remaking/removing these 2 games are out of the question. Again, considering each game separately, the empire team in hive feels there was an advantage prior to the bug (I have no opinion as I'm not in that game), so remaking the game would be very unfair to them. In NA, we have decided to ignore any disadvantages the bug has caused our team due to how complex a solution could be for just 3 troops. You are welcome to concede a turn by one of your players if you guys want, but again empire will not show any further concern into that game.

I'm not sure as to what you can discuss with mkcummins as our clan has made these decisions together, via pm's/our clans forum. If anything I would like to know how our decision in Hive (chuuuck's conceded turn) is in any way unfair as his turn will play out exactly like yours from the bug, aside from the fact that he lost 12 troops to your 9.