brandoncfi[CLEARED]ES

[jpcloet]

1)contact tourney organiser
2)contact tourney mods.

You are correct and all parties are aware of the issue.

[eddie2]

However, suiciding to help you win the tournament? No problems here.

Suiciding is against site rules, so you are ok if someone does this several times, even though they would risk a full site ban?

this is where the dispute is jp he suicided to win the tourney so in effect he suicided to win the game.

[jefjef]

In a tourney such as this, if a player wins it based on who wins the game, it must be considered a viable and allowable strategy to develop the game towards your overall victory.

He can not be considered as "throwing the game" if that game wins him the tourney.

The reason for the "Intentional game throwing rule" is to protect against point/rank manipulation. His actions have nothing to do with the points. It has everything to do with the win in relation to the scoring of the tourney.

[Night Strike]

The site rule regarding throwing games is in place to keep people from tossing points to other players or for retaliations for actions in that game or other games.

In tournaments, the ultimate goal is to win the tournament, so if that means a player settles for not winning a particular game in order to win the entire tournament, that is perfectly acceptable. This case is where a player is competing in a particular manner to help himself win, which is allowed. If someone else were to suicide into players to purposefully give the tournament to a different person, that would not be allowed.

brandoncfi is cleared of any tournament wrong doing and should be cleared by the hunters as well.

[QoH]

Thanks. I'll reflect that in the tournamnet

[Pirlo]

It's a brilliant tactic and I'd use it if it wins me a tourney... don't give a shit to "cheap tactic" thing.. I hope TD overrule because it would be lame if they sustained.

- Andrea the Charmer

[dr.lucas]

The site rule regarding throwing games is in place to keep people from tossing points to other players or for retaliations for actions in that game or other games.

In tournaments, the ultimate goal is to win the tournament, so if that means a player settles for not winning a particular game in order to win the entire tournament, that is perfectly acceptable. This case is where a player is competing in a particular manner to help himself win, which is allowed. If someone else were to suicide into players to purposefully give the tournament to a different person, that would not be allowed.

brandoncfi is cleared of any tournament wrong doing and should be cleared by the hunters as well.

Clearly a case of losing the battle but winning the war, well put Night Strike, thanks for clearing up this case from a tournament perspective.

[Woodruff]

It does appear to be throwing the game, it will likely be noted. Really it is up to the TO to do the right thing.

The right thing, in this case, being to applaud the individual for winning the tournament...right?

Play to win the tournament, not the game.

Let me qualify this statement:
- Suiciding to prevent someone else from winning when it doesn't affect you? Should be punishable.
- Suiciding to help someone else win when it doesn't affect you? Should be punishable.

However, suiciding to help you win the tournament? No problems here.

Exactly how I see it also. Well stated.

The site rule regarding throwing games is in place to keep people from tossing points to other players or for retaliations for actions in that game or other games.

In tournaments, the ultimate goal is to win the tournament, so if that means a player settles for not winning a particular game in order to win the entire tournament, that is perfectly acceptable. This case is where a player is competing in a particular manner to help himself win, which is allowed. If someone else were to suicide into players to purposefully give the tournament to a different person, that would not be allowed.

brandoncfi is cleared of any tournament wrong doing and should be cleared by the hunters as well.

Thank you, Night Strike. I am very relieved to see this, because any other ruling would seriously hamper what I feel is the best part of this site...the tournaments.

[iamkoolerthanu]

[Bones2484]

Thanks for your comments, NS. Very nice to see the perspective in writing.

[jpcloet]

It does appear to be throwing the game, it will likely be noted. Really it is up to the TO to do the right thing.

The right thing, in this case, being to applaud the individual for winning the tournament...right?

I seem to be in the minority here, however, it would have been better had b actually tried to win the game rather than throw it. It certainly was taking the easy way out. I think Bones' definition is something to work from. However, it is a site violation to throw a game, so I am expecting a Noted from the Hunters. If you want to change the site policy going forward, that's fine, however the current policy under unwritten rules includes throwing games.

[LFAW]

This was a great play by Brandoncfi... shouldn't even be noted

[Woodruff]

It does appear to be throwing the game, it will likely be noted. Really it is up to the TO to do the right thing.

The right thing, in this case, being to applaud the individual for winning the tournament...right?

I seem to be in the minority here, however, it would have been better had b actually tried to win the game rather than throw it. It certainly was taking the easy way out. I think Bones' definition is something to work from. However, it is a site violation to throw a game, so I am expecting a Noted from the Hunters. If you want to change the site policy going forward, that's fine, however the current policy under unwritten rules includes throwing games.

Blindly following rules and ignoring intent is the way to tyranny, discontent and eventually, failure.

[Haggis_McMutton]

It does appear to be throwing the game, it will likely be noted. Really it is up to the TO to do the right thing.

The right thing, in this case, being to applaud the individual for winning the tournament...right?

I seem to be in the minority here, however, it would have been better had b actually tried to win the game rather than throw it. It certainly was taking the easy way out. I think Bones' definition is something to work from. However, it is a site violation to throw a game, so I am expecting a Noted from the Hunters. If you want to change the site policy going forward, that's fine, however the current policy under unwritten rules includes throwing games.

This blindly following of the rules that some people vehemently support gets under my skin so much.
"The Rules" weren't handed down by any gods and don't constitute the basis of what is good and evil. The rules are an inherently flawed attempt to quantify what is "good and bad". When you forget that fact and blindly try to get someone punished for what is clearly a smart move simply because "it's against the rules", you're just being silly.

As NightStrike actually pointed out:

The site rule regarding throwing games is in place to keep people from tossing points to other players or for retaliations for actions in that game or other games.

See, the rule isn't god given, but tries to quantify a type of undesirable behaviour. Playing in a certain way as to win a tournament cannot be undesirable behaviour. Simple as that.

Also, if it's the deciding game in the tournament and you don't consider that the leader will do everything in his power to remain leader, you haven't played in enough tournaments. THAT is the exact thing that makes tournaments more interesting, a game is indeed a single battle, not the whole war, playing each game as if it is the whole war makes tournaments entirely pointless.

[jpcloet]

I'm not blindly following anything. I'm more disappointed in this win at all cost attitude versus having some integrity and character. B up to that point was already the better player so him winning the tournament is more than fair. If you are going to quote NS, also realize that some points were thrown to other players. Intent is truly known by the person who took the actions. If this player is cleared, at least clarify it in the rules and tournament section then. Is that too much to ask?

[Woodruff]

I'm not blindly following anything. I'm more disappointed in this win at all cost attitude versus having some integrity and character.

That's clearly only a personal opinion, because in my opinion brandoncfi's move to ensure victory in the tournament is an example of both integrity and character.

Intent is truly known by the person who took the actions.

Of course that is always true, and yet he made his intent pretty clear in the game chat.

If this player is cleared, at least clarify it in the rules and tournament section then. Is that too much to ask?

Certainly, this makes sense.

[IcePack]

I had a tourney game (assassin) where the loser got knocked out of tourney. So somEonss strategy was to not try @ all, kill someone doses target so that target got knocked out and try in the later rounds. Frustrating for sure but good tournament strategy.

IcePack

[Lindax]

I'm not blindly following anything. I'm more disappointed in this win at all cost attitude versus having some integrity and character. B up to that point was already the better player so him winning the tournament is more than fair. If you are going to quote NS, also realize that some points were thrown to other players. Intent is truly known by the person who took the actions. If this player is cleared, at least clarify it in the rules and tournament section then. Is that too much to ask?

This is not the first time this issue comes up jp. To my knowledge, the Tournament Department has always followed the "policy" expressed by Night Strike.

And it's not the only "exception to the rule". With tie-breaker games it has been deemed acceptable that people "throw" the original game, so that the winner of the tie-breaker game can also win the original game.

I agree that it would not be a bad idea to clarify these issues in the site rules. I don't see, however, that there should be a clarification in the tournament section. Especially considering that exceptions clearly do not only apply to tournament games.

At the moment it's a bit like "unwritten exceptions to the rules".

Lx

[jpcloet]

And it's not the only "exception to the rule". With tie-breaker games it has been deemed acceptable that people "throw" the original game, so that the winner of the tie-breaker game can also win the original game.

The only difference there is that it is agreed upon at least, especially in never-end build games. In this case it led to a negative experience in the tournament section.

I agree that it would not be a bad idea to clarify these issues in the site rules. I don't see, however, that there should be a clarification in the tournament section. Especially considering that exceptions clearly do not only apply to tournament games.

If it is changed on the Rules page to add tie-breaks, build games, and in order to win a tournament, then yes it would not be needed in the tournament section. I'm willing to bet the Tournament section is more likely to be updated in a timely manner based on the TD team, than the rules page. I've come across a number of build games sitting clan mates, and all of them to my knowledge were tournament games. I'm stuck in 2 as we speak.

[greenoaks]

brandoncfi's actions have been noted

by me

[eddie2]

And it's not the only "exception to the rule". With tie-breaker games it has been deemed acceptable that people "throw" the original game, so that the winner of the tie-breaker game can also win the original game.

The only difference there is that it is agreed upon at least, especially in never-end build games. In this case it led to a negative experience in the tournament section.

I agree that it would not be a bad idea to clarify these issues in the site rules. I don't see, however, that there should be a clarification in the tournament section. Especially considering that exceptions clearly do not only apply to tournament games.

If it is changed on the Rules page to add tie-breaks, build games, and in order to win a tournament, then yes it would not be needed in the tournament section. I'm willing to bet the Tournament section is more likely to be updated in a timely manner based on the TD team, than the rules page. I've come across a number of build games sitting clan mates, and all of them to my knowledge were tournament games. I'm stuck in 2 as we speak.

jpcloet stop and think a min (like you always tell me) this tactic is used in these types of tourneys(something i see you do not join a lot of.) literally all the players who have posted in here do play or run this style of tourney. Most people who join this style will tell you it is ligitimate play because the game getting played is to win the trophy brandons move was to win the game(game being the tourney) not to lose it. if he had not of made that move he could of came to a tie breaker and lose it. night strike is the head tourney mod you are his understudy. So the way i see it after his comment saying it was fine you should not be coming in here undermining his decission by saying it is not fine. this case should not even be in c and a like the cases of late where people have cheated in clan wars the discission on what should happen was left in your court (being head clan mod.) and i will guess if masli or another of the clan mods came in here saying agauinst you, you would not of been happy.

[sonicsteve]

In tournaments, the ultimate goal is to win the tournament, so if that means a player settles for not winning a particular game in order to win the entire tournament, that is perfectly acceptable.

Excellent clarification.

If this ends up with a 'noted', then I'm handing myself in for a 'noted' too. I'll freely admit there are a number of tournaments where I've deliberately 'not finished last' in individual games in order to try to win the tourney overall.

Ranking points are immaterial if you're serious about winning a points based tourney.

In no way can this be considered cheap play by brandoncfi. Cheap play would include throwing the tournament to another player or throwing a game where he couldn't benefit. He has benefitted and I agree with the earlier posters who regard his move here as simply good strategy to win the event.

[jpcloet]

jpcloet stop and think a min (like you always tell me) this tactic is used in these types of tourneys(something i see you do not join a lot of.) literally all the players who have posted in here do play or run this style of tourney. Most people who join this style will tell you it is ligitimate play because the game getting played is to win the trophy brandons move was to win the game(game being the tourney) not to lose it. if he had not of made that move he could of came to a tie breaker and lose it. night strike is the head tourney mod you are his understudy. So the way i see it after his comment saying it was fine you should not be coming in here undermining his decission by saying it is not fine. this case should not even be in c and a like the cases of late where people have cheated in clan wars the discission on what should happen was left in your court (being head clan mod.) and i will guess if masli or another of the clan mods came in here saying agauinst you, you would not of been happy.

I've already said that I realize I'm in the minority, if it is a legitimate strategy then put it in the rules as an exception to the exceptions. I am disagreeing (not undermining) with his opinion that cheating to win is ok. I'm not a TD, I was only in that group so that I could understand the Tournament system as it applies to clans as we use the same system currently. I've asked to be removed so players like you don't continue to be confused as I'm very much not his understudy. His decision from a tournament perspective is perfectly fine by me, it is the conflicting message with that and the unwritten rules I'm challenging. If I were the TO in this case, I've already mentioned what I would have done.

There is nothing wrong with this being in C&A. The clan cheating you mentioned was dealt with in both places. Abuse of gaming privileges falls under my area, however, account sitting abuse is under C&A, and harassment via pm/wall etc is C&A. My team is allowed to have their own opinions. Recently my whole team did not agree with me on an issue I won't disclose. However, after several discussions and showing them the bigger picture and how it complicates future clan items, most of us appear to be aligned.

[eddie2]

wait wait wait he did not cheat.

it is a tourney game you play to win the tourney overall .

you are using the rule intentional throwing of the game


let make it even easier to understand you join a tourney to win the trophy. he won the trophy by his move in this game(game being the series of games he played to win)


the game was to win the trophy he done this so did not cheat.

as for your comment about not being a tourney mod at the time of your posts you were seen as being one so should of stated this fact in your posts. your name was on there list and by night strikes response you were proberly the person murphy contacted about this.(since he agrees this is not cheating lindax agrees this is not as well.) you should of sent him to night strike not told him to open a c and a report. you confirmed earlier in this thread that the proper channels were followed but you admit now that you are not a tourney moderator so this just brings the fact out that the proper channels were not followed.

it is fair enough he is a fellow clan member but you as a moderator should of told him to contact a tourney mod not make a c and a report.

[jpcloet]

My name is in teal first and foremost and my title should be enough. Hopefully the confusion has cleared up in that matter. As for the order, the TO was contacted, the TD's were contacted and the thread was started in C&A. Your logic is completely flawed, as to the order is the only thing you can argue there. All 3 parties were contacted, feel free to needlessly argue the order if you care. You are not privy to my advice to murphy so don't make assumptions as to what he was told.