[CC 2010 Semis] TOFU vs KoRT [20-40 of 60]

[Chariot of Fire]

You're welcome. Now I wonder which box you'll be ticking

There's a good possibility TOFU is losing this because you provoked KORT into taking measures that are harsher than the ones we originally intended to take.

You know, when a hangman has an axe pointed towards your neck and is deciding whether to kill you or let you live, calling the said person dishonourable might get you killed. And it might be hard to claim his decision was unfair when you pretty much conducted his actions with your words.

Why would a hangman be carrying an axe?

There's a handle to the trapdoor - he either pulls it or he doesn't, it's that simple.

[trapyoung]

Whether the judge likes the petitioner is irrelevant to how he interprets and applies the law, his role is to serve justice and that alone. You may not like us, but whether you find it legitimate or honorable to advance on such a blunder should not be a product of who you are playing although it will be perceived as such.

[Knight2254]

Moooooo

[nikola_milicki]

@ Kort

There is absolutely nothing for u guys to debate about here. This situation cant be any simpler from what it is now.

[Leehar]

@ Kort

There is absolutely nothing for u guys to debate about here. This situation cant be any simpler from what it is now.

They may just be considering on whether Tofu deserves any magnanimity on their part after all the perceived slights they have thrown, or even maybe we're too harsh on them and they're just considering what measure to put in place between calling one forfeit or just a remake of the 21st game with a different player then cof?
Also trap, I doubt using an analogy of a judge being unbiased holds much weight considering they still usually make rulings that stick with the letter of the law, I doubt anyone's really wanting them to go that route.

Ps. On a lighter note, the Div A schedule thread Tofu comments are hilarious

[Rodion]

Whether the judge likes the petitioner is irrelevant to how he interprets and applies the law, his role is to serve justice and that alone. You may not like us, but whether you find it legitimate or honorable to advance on such a blunder should not be a product of who you are playing although it will be perceived as such.

You're partially right. Yes, that's how the judge is supposed to act. The judge here is Chuuuuck.

KORT is not a judge, but a party involved and that's what changes the situation. This is not about the duty of applying a law, but rather about exercising a right or resigning from it. KORT has ultimate power to punish for 21 or be generous and punish for anything between 0 and 20 (but not 22 or higher), although, yes, if TOFU disagrees on the specific number it can always go back to 21, but that's irrelevant right now.

The point is:

1 - KORT has full power to exercise a right or resign from it.
2 - if KORT exercises it, TOFU is out of the challenge, no appeals.
3 - most KORT members were initially being reasonable and asking for a smaller punishment (say, 1 or 2 games instead of 21).
4 - after reading some excerts of this thread, particularly the one that claimed we'd have solved the questions by now if we were honourable (and since we didn't, it implied, contrario sensu, we were dishonourable), the votes are shifting from less severe penalties to more severe ones.

I am not manifesting opinions, but merely stating a fact that I can perceive by checking the shift of the votes on the poll.

Now, as a suggestion from someone that wouldn't like to see a challenge like this end with the simple application of a sanction, I suggest CoF to tone down his attitude a little. I suggest him to ask Bruceswar to delay the deadline of the decision and to use the extra time to gain credibility by withdrawing some rough remarks that were made here. If that happens, it's possible that some "21 votes" go back to "1/2 votes" and TOFU gets a shot at the series.

Now I'm manifesting my opinion on how your actions could change a trend that I've observed and that could potentially end pretty ugly for TOFU, but could end in a more reasonable manner with a simple change of attitude.

By the way, I haven't yet voted and my opinion may be influenced by how you conduct this thing from now on.

[niMic]

You're welcome. Now I wonder which box you'll be ticking

Well I had already ticked one box before your reply, but I've gone ahead and changed it to a more appropriate one. I'm sure you'll understand eventually

[trapyoung]

Quite frankly I don't care how you vote. I'd rather have my pride and not dance around and beg for leniency than make a pitiful plea for some type of reprieve. Especially when the mistake was honest, albeit careless. It seems now that you'd rather rub our noses in it since this has been a less than amiable war. That's your prerogative if you'd like to do that, but we don't have to abide and I'm not going to lower myself for what was insignificant mistake in the greater scheme of what had been a competitive match.

And Rodion, a couple things. First, I like you, I think you're a nice guy but to come in with so much machismo as to suggest you know something about (1) clan challenges, (2) TOFU-KoRT relations and (3) the state of the clan war after joining KoRT only a week or two ago is extremely unbecoming. You said you were the hangman, I made the analogy to the judge. The hangman can not decide the severity of the penalty, only carry it out. The judge can consider mitigating factors - Chuuck is the law, the judge is the interpreter. The ultimate goal for the judge is to serve justice and if KoRT wants us to throw ourselves on the mercy of the court and disregard the facts of the infraction that is extremely low of them and seems extremely selfish and childish. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your and KoRT's statements, but I feel like I'm not and I would rather forfeit 21 games then lower myself.

[niMic]

Rub your noses in it? We were fully prepared and indeed on route to just giving you a very mild slap on the wrist, a "punishment" that no one on CC could call unjust with a straight face.

But, alas. You guys don't know when to stop, do you? And when I say you, I'm not speaking of TOFU as a clan, I'm speaking of the select few who could very well now be the cause of a lost challenge, with no one else to blame for it - though of course, they will anyway.

Well done. Well done indeed. And yes, I am absolutely rubbing your nose in it. At this point, I simply couldn't care less of what you think of me.

[trapyoung]

Rub your noses in it? We were fully prepared and indeed on route to just giving you a very mild slap on the wrist, a "punishment" that no one on CC could call unjust with a straight face.

But, alas. You guys don't know when to stop, do you? And when I say you, I'm not speaking of TOFU as a clan, I'm speaking of the select few who could very well now be the cause of a lost challenge, with no one else to blame for it - though of course, they will anyway.

Well done. Well done indeed. And yes, I am absolutely rubbing your nose in it. At this point, I simply couldn't care less of what you think of me.

Careful buddy, you're going to spoil the results of the vote. I don't want to know what the outcome is before it's all said and done.

[niMic]

Love the new sig

[trapyoung]

Love the new foe list. It's going to be awfully irritating having to click 'show post' every time my name pops up.

[#1_stunna]

I ♥ this thread.

[trapyoung]

I ♥ fuchsia.

Fixed.

[#1_stunna]

I ♥ fuchsia.

Fixed.

i do.

i even have a Fuchsia/Pink thong, would you like to see it?

[General Mojo]

Just popping back in here to show my love for this thread.....incredible on so many different levels.

The bounty offer still stands, fyi....just say the word

[jpeter15]

I ♥ this thread.

Its pretty damn entertaining.

[niMic]

Love the new foe list. It's going to be awfully irritating having to click 'show post' every time my name pops up.

Well, that's true. On the other hand, reading your posts is quite irritating on its own.

Well, that's a lie. It's the gift that keeps on giving. You're back on: shoot!

PS: This means you can again post classy messages on my Wall. Oh, you'll be hard pressed to top mine, but I'm sure you'll be a good little fellow and try anyway.

[nikola_milicki]

Whether the judge likes the petitioner is irrelevant to how he interprets and applies the law, his role is to serve justice and that alone. You may not like us, but whether you find it legitimate or honorable to advance on such a blunder should not be a product of who you are playing although it will be perceived as such.

You're partially right. Yes, that's how the judge is supposed to act. The judge here is Chuuuuck.

KORT is not a judge, but a party involved and that's what changes the situation. This is not about the duty of applying a law, but rather about exercising a right or resigning from it. KORT has ultimate power to punish for 21 or be generous and punish for anything between 0 and 20 (but not 22 or higher), although, yes, if TOFU disagrees on the specific number it can always go back to 21, but that's irrelevant right now.

The point is:

1 - KORT has full power to exercise a right or resign from it.
2 - if KORT exercises it, TOFU is out of the challenge, no appeals.
3 - most KORT members were initially being reasonable and asking for a smaller punishment (say, 1 or 2 games instead of 21).
4 - after reading some excerts of this thread, particularly the one that claimed we'd have solved the questions by now if we were honourable (and since we didn't, it implied, contrario sensu, we were dishonourable), the votes are shifting from less severe penalties to more severe ones.

I am not manifesting opinions, but merely stating a fact that I can perceive by checking the shift of the votes on the poll.

Now, as a suggestion from someone that wouldn't like to see a challenge like this end with the simple application of a sanction, I suggest CoF to tone down his attitude a little. I suggest him to ask Bruceswar to delay the deadline of the decision and to use the extra time to gain credibility by withdrawing some rough remarks that were made here. If that happens, it's possible that some "21 votes" go back to "1/2 votes" and TOFU gets a shot at the series.

Now I'm manifesting my opinion on how your actions could change a trend that I've observed and that could potentially end pretty ugly for TOFU, but could end in a more reasonable manner with a simple change of attitude.

By the way, I haven't yet voted and my opinion may be influenced by how you conduct this thing from now on.

u still havent voted cuz u dont feel like letting go on such an easy way out of this challenge.. this says a lot about u man..
my guess is that the last few days u guys have been trying to come up with a solution on how to use the easy way out but not lose face by doing so.. In my eyes, same as in the eyes of many other players here, u have lost a big part of ur honor already, when u didnt say that u wont accept a cheap win cuz of a silly rule..
u cant hide behind anything tofu said, no matter how bad it is, it has nothing to do with u lacking balls to finish this challenge honorably.

[Leehar]

u still havent voted cuz u dont feel like letting go on such an easy way out of this challenge.. this says a lot about u man..
my guess is that the last few days u guys have been trying to come up with a solution on how to use the easy way out but not lose face by doing so.. In my eyes, same as in the eyes of many other players here, u have lost a big part of ur honor already, when u didnt say that u wont accept a cheap win cuz of a silly rule..
u cant hide behind anything tofu said, no matter how bad it is, it has nothing to do with u lacking balls to finish this challenge honorably.

So then, doesn't it mean that the longer this drags on, the less likely it is we'll reach an amicable solution?

[nikola_milicki]

u still havent voted cuz u dont feel like letting go on such an easy way out of this challenge.. this says a lot about u man..
my guess is that the last few days u guys have been trying to come up with a solution on how to use the easy way out but not lose face by doing so.. In my eyes, same as in the eyes of many other players here, u have lost a big part of ur honor already, when u didnt say that u wont accept a cheap win cuz of a silly rule..
u cant hide behind anything tofu said, no matter how bad it is, it has nothing to do with u lacking balls to finish this challenge honorably.

So then, doesn't it mean that the longer this drags on, the less likely it is we'll reach an amicable solution?

not necessarily.. some ppl just need to replace their udders with balls and there shudnt be any problem reaching an honorable solution.. I believe I speak for all who prefer to do their challenges the right way, on the battle field.. if there is any other way it sure as hell aint the silliest rule ever..

[josko.ri]

Whilst I wasn't the one who lodged the complaint, I did however support it. It wasn't a hard decision when you consider the events that prompted it (to have a script, known only to yourselves, that puts "josko for xxxxxx" every time a turn is played....well what reaction did you try to get or expect?).

if you have any issues with that, you could do what Dako and Foxglove agreed to be done if any issue appears. here is pm where it was made deal about that:

Sent: 09 Sep 2010, 17:19
From: Dako
To: Masli Chariot of Fire Foxglove Bruceswar

In closing, if you have an issue with someone in KORT that is serious enough that you believe it warrants involvement and punishment from the site administrators, please initiate a discussion with us about it prior to making threats.

That is why I sent you a PM without doing anything in public.

I have already talked to Masli over MSN (a week ago maybe) that josko was overreacting in the challenge thread - he told me he will talk to him. Josko apologized in thread but in a few days he started to troll games as well as challenge thread again. So I am reminding you again that it is not a behavior we expect from top clan we are facing and we would like you to deal with it because it is discomfortable for us to war in such way.

Cheers,
Daniel.

so foxy officially asked Dako in pm to first initiate discussion with our leaders before put any issue outside.
that s what you should do, just follow the agreement that foxy and Dako made in that pm.

[trapyoung]

Whilst I wasn't the one who lodged the complaint, I did however support it. It wasn't a hard decision when you consider the events that prompted it (to have a script, known only to yourselves, that puts "josko for xxxxxx" every time a turn is played....well what reaction did you try to get or expect?).

if you have any issues with that, you could do what Dako and Foxglove agreed to be done if any issue appears. here is pm where it was made deal about that:

Sent: 09 Sep 2010, 17:19
From: Dako
To: Masli Chariot of Fire Foxglove Bruceswar

In closing, if you have an issue with someone in KORT that is serious enough that you believe it warrants involvement and punishment from the site administrators, please initiate a discussion with us about it prior to making threats.

That is why I sent you a PM without doing anything in public.

I have already talked to Masli over MSN (a week ago maybe) that josko was overreacting in the challenge thread - he told me he will talk to him. Josko apologized in thread but in a few days he started to troll games as well as challenge thread again. So I am reminding you again that it is not a behavior we expect from top clan we are facing and we would like you to deal with it because it is discomfortable for us to war in such way.

Cheers,
Daniel.

so foxy officially asked Dako in pm to first initiate discussion with our leaders before put any issue outside.
that s what you should do, just follow the agreement that foxy and Dako made in that pm.

Like... what... you... did... in... this... situation?

[Rodion]

Quite frankly I don't care how you vote. I'd rather have my pride and not dance around and beg for leniency than make a pitiful plea for some type of reprieve. Especially when the mistake was honest, albeit careless. It seems now that you'd rather rub our noses in it since this has been a less than amiable war. That's your prerogative if you'd like to do that, but we don't have to abide and I'm not going to lower myself for what was insignificant mistake in the greater scheme of what had been a competitive match.

I understand your position. However, I don't think we're asking you to dance around, bend over or blow us in exchange for mercy. Do you have anything against a clan behaving democratically? I suppose you don't.

You may think the correct solution to this case was obvious, let's say KORT asking only for the 21st game to be forfeited. Still, democracy is not about someone imposing his will when they think a certain case is crystal clear, but actually collectively discussing and deciding upon the matter. This means every member from KORT gets a vote and every member from KORT also gets the chance to explain his thought proccess, which may lead other people to changing their own opinion or trying to explain why someone else's is flawed. People can reply to that and so on. Consider, also, that KORT features players from USA, Brazil, UK, Netherlands, Belgium, Croatia, Norway and maybe others), meaning different time zones may present itself as a hindrance to a fast resolution. I can safely say there are at least 15 members from KORT involved in the discussion, which means a fair decision could take a somewhat extended period to be reached.

Now, why am I telling you about something you probably already know? Because pressuring us like CoF did to make a fast decision and hinting at KORT being dishonourable for a delay which I consider (for the aforementioned reasons) justifiable is not the proper way to handle a situation.

I do understand that delaying the decision until most games are over could allow us to apply the rule if we lose and not apply it if we win, but the way CoF said it after such a brief period of time (36 hours) is just not right. You know, there are polite ways to express your concern and ask for a quick decision, and suggesting dishonour coming from the other party is not one of them.

To sum my original point up, all I tried to say was it shouldn't come as a surprise if KORT decides not to be merciful to TOFU after those unfair accusations. Again, I'm not saying you had to dance around, bend over or blow us in exchange for mercy. All I'm saying is calling us dishonourable really put yourselves in a tough hole from which you might not be able to get away.

And Rodion, a couple things. First, I like you, I think you're a nice guy

Thank you and likewise.

but to come in with so much machismo

My original metaphor might have been a little strong, but I was just going for a didactical impact, not anything else, no bad faith. I even later explained how I thought the situation could be diplomatically solved as to give TOFU a higher chance of a fair ruling, such as withdrawing the accusation of dishonour. I would try to conciliate things this way in any situation you could present me to concile. If you don't develop a minimum respect between both parties, things will get ugly. And if one party has the power to unilaterally decide the fate of the other, then the second one had better respect the first.

Really, I don't think I'm saying anything absurd.

as to suggest you know something about (1) clan challenges, (2) TOFU-KoRT relations and (3) the state of the clan war after joining KoRT only a week or two ago is extremely unbecoming.

And I don't know a lot about the 3 things you mentioned. That does not mean, however, my opinions are necessarily wrong. Alleging the opposite would be an argumentum ad hominem. Again, you probably know that already.

You said you were the hangman, I made the analogy to the judge. The hangman can not decide the severity of the penalty, only carry it out. The judge can consider mitigating factors - Chuuck is the law, the judge is the interpreter. The ultimate goal for the judge is to serve justice and if KoRT wants us to throw ourselves on the mercy of the court and disregard the facts of the infraction that is extremely low of them and seems extremely selfish and childish. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your and KoRT's statements, but I feel like I'm not and I would rather forfeit 21 games then lower myself.

KORT wants to advance. TOFU wants to advance. Only one of them can advance, so they fight each other. That's enough for me to consider KORT is not the judge, but a party with a really really heavy prerogative. The judge is Chuuuck. The law is comprised of the articles/clauses that were mutually agreed prior to the beginning of the challenge. Montesquieu would say the judge is la bouche de la loi (the mouth of the law). When Chuuuuck interpreted and declared the law, he established KORT's prerogative. We're not a court, but a party that has a prerogative and is deciding on whether to use it or not (or rather how much of it should be used). The fact that using it above a certain level will eliminate ("kill") TOFU from the challenge allows me to think my metaphor is not as wrong as you may think it is.

Cheers,
Adriano

[Rodion]

u still havent voted cuz u dont feel like letting go on such an easy way out of this challenge.. this says a lot about u man..

If that were the case, I could have simply voted for 21 and raised the odds of getting the easy way out. But think whatever you want.