CCatman- Ljex, In cahoots to escape from high poi[noted]es

[stahrgazer]

But clearly we have different opinions on how the game happened, problem is you never play this type of game so you have no way to comment on how something is easy or how he had 5 minutes to cash.

ljex,

You know what. You come in and post this stuff. I may have to retract my last post. You are adamantly trying to sweep away whatever really happened.

You don't have to play FS speed in order to KNOW with cashes at 6 and in a weakened/vulnerable state and with knowing who most likely has you that the priority is to drop and get a card and stay alive UNLESS...

And yes he had almost a full 5 minutes to do exactly that.

jefjef the game is about winning, not stoping you from being a target. In order to have any shot of winning that game ccatman had to hope to get the last cashes and the game to last many more rounds. Also please notice that he had all of 10 seconds from the time i cashed to the time i killed him...thus making him not have 5 minutes to cash at 6 spoils worth. Anyway i digress if you want to play one I'm sure we can arrange that and you can then see how important it is to wait till the end of the round to cash... until you actually play a game and learn its own unique strategies then i fail too see how you can give a relevant opinion on how he was making a strategically dumb play thats only purpose was to throw the game. Also most games don't last 5 rounds and people don't normally cash at 4 spoils so there is no way he expected me to cash and come after him that round based on the board he saw...

Your cash was 4 whole troops. That doesn't make or break a game; the difference would have been 2 troops; again, not a game-breaker. The gamebreaker was, he assaulted neutrals down to almost nothing, then waited to cash; then never dropped any troops... despite a player of his caliber had plenty of time to do so. The question is whether his assaulting neutrals to almost nothing, getting him closer to the guy who he knew had him targeted, and his stall on dropping any troops to protect himself, constitutes deliberately throwing the game your way. If it does constitute him deliberately throwing the game your way, it's cheating. However, even if it is cheating, it may not be punishable because as Andy said, those things are difficult to prove so typically the hunters look for a pattern rather than an instance.

But I think most esc. players would agree that a 4 or 6 troop cash is not normally going to decide the winner of a multiplayer escalating assassin feudal game without something really whacked having occurred.

[MNDuke]

im finished with this thread. Im just glad I have all of you foed. You little boys can play your little games with each other. Men have better things to do with thier time.

Like create useless C&A threads.

This growing trend to put every move and action on cc under a microscope and fine tooth comb is getting ridiculous. The constant parenting and everybody playing noisy neighbor is ruining the gaming experience. Yeah it sucks you lost the game. Maybe it didn't happen in the most honorable fashion, but it was done within the rules and confines of the game. Suck it up and live to fight another day instead of creating yet another pissing and moaning fest where everyone scrutinizes each other. This is so pointless and a waste of time. I fail to see what is being accomplished here other than give jefjef something to play mod over.

[TheSaxlad]

im finished with this thread. Im just glad I have all of you foed. You little boys can play your little games with each other. Men have better things to do with thier time.

Like create useless C&A threads.

This growing trend to put every move and action on cc under a microscope and fine tooth comb is getting ridiculous. The constant parenting and everybody playing noisy neighbor is ruining the gaming experience. Yeah it sucks you lost the game. Maybe it didn't happen in the most honorable fashion, but it was done within the rules and confines of the game. Suck it up and live to fight another day instead of creating yet another pissing and moaning fest where everyone scrutinizes each other. This is so pointless and a waste of time. I fail to see what is being accomplished here other than give jefjef something to play mod over.

[ljex]

But clearly we have different opinions on how the game happened, problem is you never play this type of game so you have no way to comment on how something is easy or how he had 5 minutes to cash.

ljex,

You know what. You come in and post this stuff. I may have to retract my last post. You are adamantly trying to sweep away whatever really happened.

You don't have to play FS speed in order to KNOW with cashes at 6 and in a weakened/vulnerable state and with knowing who most likely has you that the priority is to drop and get a card and stay alive UNLESS...

And yes he had almost a full 5 minutes to do exactly that.

jefjef the game is about winning, not stoping you from being a target. In order to have any shot of winning that game ccatman had to hope to get the last cashes and the game to last many more rounds. Also please notice that he had all of 10 seconds from the time i cashed to the time i killed him...thus making him not have 5 minutes to cash at 6 spoils worth. Anyway i digress if you want to play one I'm sure we can arrange that and you can then see how important it is to wait till the end of the round to cash... until you actually play a game and learn its own unique strategies then i fail too see how you can give a relevant opinion on how he was making a strategically dumb play thats only purpose was to throw the game. Also most games don't last 5 rounds and people don't normally cash at 4 spoils so there is no way he expected me to cash and come after him that round based on the board he saw...

Your cash was 4 whole troops. That doesn't make or break a game; the difference would have been 2 troops; again, not a game-breaker. The gamebreaker was, he assaulted neutrals down to almost nothing, then waited to cash; then never dropped any troops... despite a player of his caliber had plenty of time to do so. The question is whether his assaulting neutrals to almost nothing, getting him closer to the guy who he knew had him targeted, and his stall on dropping any troops to protect himself, constitutes deliberately throwing the game your way. If it does constitute him deliberately throwing the game your way, it's cheating. However, even if it is cheating, it may not be punishable because as Andy said, those things are difficult to prove so typically the hunters look for a pattern rather than an instance.

But I think most esc. players would agree that a 4 or 6 troop cash is not normally going to decide the winner of a multiplayer escalating assassin feudal game without something really whacked having occurred.

oh goodie...another player who dosnt play freestyle escalating wishes to comment on how the strategy of the game works...let me put it to you plain and simple...in a fuedal war game like that, everyone is going to get = troops per round. So the only way to get more troops and thus have a good shot of killing your target is to get more troops from spoils. Lets just say for arguments sake that he cashes early in the round for 4 spoils. Well then the other players me and GPD get either 6 or 8 troops giving us more than him...thus by cashing is is allowing his target to get more troops than him from spoils and his assassin to get more troops than him from spoils. Now we move on to the next time we all have 4 cards and we still have a bunch more troops than him so he cashes for 12 (aon would have cashed for 10) and me and gpd cash for 15 and 20...see how this works if he cashed for 4 troops before i started attacking him, sure he lives but 3 round from then he is dead easy. I could potentially have 12 more troops than him from spoils when he was already weak. It is a necessity to wait to cash until the last second or to get those few extra troops before you are going to try and kill someone.

But I think most esc. players would agree that a 4 or 6 troop cash is not normally going to decide the winner of a multiplayer escalating assassin feudal game without something really whacked having occurred.

This statement is completely false...in fact it is what decides more than 50% of those games...the person that gets more troops from spoils will win more often than not. Especially when the cashes start increasing by 5...the last person to cash is getting 15 more troops than the first person to cash. Yeah the difference of 4 troops is not a huge deal but when you are so low on troops allowing others to get even stronger than you is a huge mistake.

[stahrgazer]

Maybe it didn't happen in the most honorable fashion, but it was done within the rules and confines of the game.

Actually, deliberately throwing a game - if ccat did that - is not within the rules of the game. That's the question, and there is enough there to suspect he did; to warrant the original post, and to let the mods do their check.

meanwhile ljex is walling me telling me that i don't understand the game. I understand feudal and esc. enough to know that lj's 4-troop cash wouldn't have broken him through all those neutrals or won him the game if ccat hadn't already broken through the neutrals; and if ccat hadn't broken through all those neutrals, which he did AFTER ljex revealed who his target was... then ccat would have had more than ample time to wait to cash AND time to deploy, then wait for esc. troops to get large enough to matter, to be able to bust thru neutrals AND hit his target. Of course, as I mentioned before, ccat normally can cash and deploy within the SAME SECOND... so 10-20 seconds was more than ample time for him to have picked a spot back from the assault line of singles, to hold his place in the game.

So.. did he "deliberately throw" the game, thus cheat; or not? That's the question. It's a legitimate question that deserves a legitimate check and answer, no matter which way you're hoping the answer goes.

[stahrgazer]

But I think most esc. players would agree that a 4 or 6 troop cash is not normally going to decide the winner of a multiplayer escalating assassin feudal game without something really whacked having occurred.

This statement is completely false...in fact it is what decides more than 50% of those games...the person that gets more troops from spoils will win more often than not. Especially when the cashes start increasing by 5...the last person to cash is getting 15 more troops than the first person to cash. Yeah the difference of 4 troops is not a huge deal but when you are so low on troops allowing others to get even stronger than you is a huge mistake.

Not when the difference is 2 troops.. unless you've already weakened yourself to a string of neutrals and hold back from deploying the extra troops you received when you cashed.. which, happens to be what ccat did. Took a string of neuts, waited to cash, then didn't deploy them, despite he can usually cash and deploy in less than a third of the time it took you to kill him.

So again, the question is, did his doing that constitute, "he threw the game?"

[MNDuke]

You are merely debating this based off your opinion of his gameplay and strategy which is semantics, thus, I do not believe this was what the mods had in mind when creating the deliberately throwing a game rule. I believe that generally is more along the lines to prevent such things as teammate killing and malicious resolves of that ilk rather than because a player of proven rank and skill didn't make the right move in your opinion. SEMANTICS.

[stahrgazer]

You are merely debating this based off your opinion of his gameplay and strategy which is semantics, thus, I do not believe this was what the mods had in mind when creating the deliberately throwing a game rule. I believe that generally is more along the lines to prevent such things as teammate killing and malicious resolves of that ilk rather than because a player of proven rank and skill didn't make the right move in your opinion. SEMANTICS.

I maintain that it's enough out of ccat's ABILITY to warrant suspicion that he threw the game, validating the op's right to post the question in C&A, that should be looked at and warned or cleared.

[MNDuke]

Save your breath and blow out some birthday candles. This is taking things too far when you scrutinize someone's gameplay because it is not up to your standards, regardless of skill or rank. This is JUST A GAME not a fascist manhunt. What's next, dice Nazis, Gestapo's of the Game Log? Seriously, sight a similar case or incident or move on.

[stahrgazer]

Save your breath and blow out some birthday candles. This is taking things too far when you scrutinize someone's gameplay because it is not up to your standards, regardless of skill or rank. This is JUST A GAME not a fascist manhunt. What's next, dice Nazis, Gestapo's of the Game Log? Seriously, sight a similar case or incident or move on.

which is what I expect the mods will do.. but covering up the facts of catman's normal skills with bullshit like ljex keeps trying to do just makes it look worse, makes it LOOK like a coverup.

[MNDuke]

I don't see how that's any worse than you trying to get him labeled a cheater on this bogus witch hunt.

[stahrgazer]

I don't see how that's any worse than you trying to get him labeled a cheater on this bogus witch hunt.

I'm not. read down, i said I hope he's cleared. I just see zero need to obscure the facts about his USUAL skills to have him cleared. Put it out in the open, I say.. so I did. Let the mods decide on facts.

I simply dispute ljex's attempts to obscure ccat's normal skillful gameplay by suggesting, "10-20 seconds wasn't enough time for ccat to deploy," It was. Or, "He didn't have five minutes to cash and deploy," He did... so, looks suspicious, admit it, let mods check, they'll see that this is definitely not in character with ccat's normal abilities, will also (probably) see that he doesn't make a habit of this type thing, will note it, and move on.

The more ljex tries to obscure how skillful ccat can play, the more suspicious it looks.

[ljex]

Save your breath and blow out some birthday candles. This is taking things too far when you scrutinize someone's gameplay because it is not up to your standards, regardless of skill or rank. This is JUST A GAME not a fascist manhunt. What's next, dice Nazis, Gestapo's of the Game Log? Seriously, sight a similar case or incident or move on.

which is what I expect the mods will do.. but covering up the facts of catman's normal skills with bullshit like ljex keeps trying to do just makes it look worse, makes it LOOK like a coverup.

You ignore the facts yourself...i know ccatman can cash and deploy in a second but that is when he knows he is going to need too i tried to explain this to you like 5 times already lets see if it sticks this time...it is way harder to cash and deploy when someone is trying to kill you especially when its all in 10 seconds. You are just giving facts that are of a different situation entirely...one where he is prepared to cash and deploy instead of one where he was surprised. This is what i am arguing the the fact that your fact is not the same as what you make it out to be. Also i too think this should be looked at. If someone is suspicious it is teamcc's responsibility to take a look. I am just voicing my opinion that he is innocent from my point of view and i was in the game...

[stahrgazer]

Save your breath and blow out some birthday candles. This is taking things too far when you scrutinize someone's gameplay because it is not up to your standards, regardless of skill or rank. This is JUST A GAME not a fascist manhunt. What's next, dice Nazis, Gestapo's of the Game Log? Seriously, sight a similar case or incident or move on.

which is what I expect the mods will do.. but covering up the facts of catman's normal skills with bullshit like ljex keeps trying to do just makes it look worse, makes it LOOK like a coverup.

Also i too think this should be looked at.

I see you agree, it should be looked at. 'Nuff said.

[ljex]

I don't see how that's any worse than you trying to get him labeled a cheater on this bogus witch hunt.

I'm not. read down, i said I hope he's cleared. I just see zero need to obscure the facts about his USUAL skills to have him cleared. Put it out in the open, I say.. so I did. Let the mods decide on facts.

I simply dispute ljex's attempts to obscure ccat's normal skillful gameplay by suggesting, "10-20 seconds wasn't enough time for ccat to deploy," It was. Or, "He didn't have five minutes to cash and deploy," He did... so, looks suspicious, admit it, let mods check, they'll see that this is definitely not in character with ccat's normal abilities, will also (probably) see that he doesn't make a habit of this type thing, will note it, and move on.

The more ljex tries to obscure how skillful ccat can play, the more suspicious it looks.

OMG if one more person says he had 5 minutes to cash and deploy im going to snap...he didnt if he wanted to win the game, plain and simple.

Second: I'm not trying to obscure ccatmans skill what im trying to say is the skills you are listing are in a different situation and therefore are not as relevant as you make them out to be. Look at the logs in that attack i attacked 2 regions a second. Would you say i can do that always? In short the answer is no...i can only do that where i am attacking in a straight line as then i can use alt...could i be considered cheating if i miss a kill because i only attacked one region per second? Under your assumptions that if ccatman can cash deploy in one second he can always cash deploy in one second? NO because they are different situations and therefore people can do things in a different amount of time. See what i am saying? you are drawing a fact that is not entirely relevant to this situation...its still somewhat relevant yes because it shows what he can do in the best possible situation but this was not the best possible situation...

[MNDuke]

I disagree you with both. I think this thread should be discarded entirely as it sets a terrible precedent. Where do you draw the line then if a player's game performance isn't up to your standards? If i decide to take a village in Feudal is that considered cheating? What if I don't cash a bold spoil or ignore an opponents bonus? I don't see the justice in evaluating one's performance unless they are making malicious moves with the inherent intention of throwing the game because of irrational motives, ie. not liking the cut of someone's jib.

[stahrgazer]

I disagree you with both. I think this thread should be discarded entirely as it sets a terrible precedent. Where do you draw the line then if a player's game performance isn't up to your standards? If i decide to take a village in Feudal is that considered cheating? What if I don't cash a bold spoil or ignore an opponents bonus? I don't see the justice in evaluating one's performance unless they are making malicious moves with the inherent intention of throwing the game because of irrational motives, ie. not liking the cut of someone's jib.

And again, that's the question the mods are being asked to review.

I simply think there's no need to obscure facts about the game or the player's skill for the mods to determine whether ccat makes a habit of it.

[Bruceswar]

I disagree you with both. I think this thread should be discarded entirely as it sets a terrible precedent. Where do you draw the line then if a player's game performance isn't up to your standards? If i decide to take a village in Feudal is that considered cheating? What if I don't cash a bold spoil or ignore an opponents bonus? I don't see the justice in evaluating one's performance unless they are making malicious moves with the inherent intention of throwing the game because of irrational motives, ie. not liking the cut of someone's jib.

You do realize cases like this have been ruled on many times over?

[ccatman]

ccatman,

1) you suicided through 10 nuetral , extra territorys that did not give a bonus, and did it VERY VERY early.
2) you correctly deduced (or did other stuff like message behind the scenes) that you could allow the man with the second Highest points in the game win... and you did.
3) you eroneosly thought that I would simply allow someone to kill me because of my rank (although I would maintain I am a better rounded player than you)
4) you did not cash when you realized ljex was going to kill you. ALL YOU PLAY ARE FREESTYLES .. dont try to tell anyone here (because I see zero idiots) that you are not fast enough to cash.


I would just ask you to be a man and admit you threw the game. But thats not in you, is it?

Well I did my part which was to foe you. I dont have time in my life for trash human beings in game or out.

'1 you did not read my message clearly if you still think i suicided(ALL neutrals attacked were ALL on my way to my target and i wouldve hit them sooner or later anyways why not take the extra bonus now if i could do it safely)
2 i did not and even if i did you have no proof
3 that has nothing to do with anything if you had gone past glvoer you were dead if glover hit rebel 1 or 2 it did not matter
4 ok great im glad ljex killed me glover's stupid tactics ruined my game and have created this problem
no i did not throw away a game if you wanna see be conquerer i'd go for conquerer but thats boring and takes too many team games to play i do this game for fun and play whatever game i want to join

[MNDuke]

I disagree you with both. I think this thread should be discarded entirely as it sets a terrible precedent. Where do you draw the line then if a player's game performance isn't up to your standards? If i decide to take a village in Feudal is that considered cheating? What if I don't cash a bold spoil or ignore an opponents bonus? I don't see the justice in evaluating one's performance unless they are making malicious moves with the inherent intention of throwing the game because of irrational motives, ie. not liking the cut of someone's jib.

You do realize cases like this have been ruled on many times over?

Obviously I don't.

[Bruceswar]

I disagree you with both. I think this thread should be discarded entirely as it sets a terrible precedent. Where do you draw the line then if a player's game performance isn't up to your standards? If i decide to take a village in Feudal is that considered cheating? What if I don't cash a bold spoil or ignore an opponents bonus? I don't see the justice in evaluating one's performance unless they are making malicious moves with the inherent intention of throwing the game because of irrational motives, ie. not liking the cut of someone's jib.

You do realize cases like this have been ruled on many times over?

Obviously I don't.

Well OK they have. I am too lazy to look any up right now, but they have been in the past.

[Eyestone]

Interesting discussion - or not really... My 2 cents:
- Dishonorable actions is not necessarily cheating - in most cases not. This looks like the second type to me.
- Arguing that what one say in chat is evidence on cheating, well that's just hopeless. Have you ever heard of irony? Or even misplaced comments said in the heat of the moment? I'm pretty sure I have left a bunch of comments about doing things not alowed according to the rules. Now please accuse me for cheating for doing so - that would be funny.
- A person who cheats should be guilty beyond any reasonable doubt if he should be called a cheater. How can anyone say that taking a turn in a variable time in seconds according to what he usually does is proof that he threw a game...?

Was there any other hard evidence I forgot to talk about?

[Rodion]

So, I've read all this thread and my opinion has gone back and forth on ccatman's responsibility. My conclusions.

1 - I don't think anyone declared who their target was. Really, those lines are not nearly enough evidence to convince anyone. I mean, there could be sarcasm and deception involved.

2010-09-24 02:34:34 - army of nobunaga: i think blue thinks yellow has him and is trying to lose as few points as possible
2010-09-24 02:35:16 - ccatman: and red we know that yellow doesnt have me someone else does who coudl that posibly be?hmmmmm
2010-09-24 02:35:23 - ljex: also i have more points than yellow
2010-09-24 02:35:26 - ljex: i think..
2010-09-24 02:35:37 - ljex: pick me

2 - I'm sure ljex didn't do anything wrong: he just made the best out of the situation.

3 - If we want to analyse whether ccatman is to be found liable or not, I think the correct question should be asked.

Question: from looking at the map/log, can we consider it reasonable that ccatman thought yellow didn't want to kill red? Go there and look at the map and log. Think.

If we consider it reasonable, then he's innocent. He simply "solved" the assassin chain: he had to kill yellow, who had to kill blue, who had to kill red, who had to kill him. If his assassin was red, it was a perfectly correct strategy to attempt to get Yer village. What happened next is he realized his assumption was wrong and didn't have time to react (he deploys somewhere that has been assaulted a split second earlier - it happens). The fact that he was surprised (because of his wrong assumption) should be enough to explain his delayed reaction and clear him of any charge.

Now, if we do not consider that a reasonable assumption, then the theory of suiciding gets stronger. Still hard to prove, but then (and only then) I think this should get admin/mod attention.

[Slaylark]

Unbelievable.. I think all of us have played enough games to know when someone is suiciding. I have played with cat enough to know he will never throw a game. He wants to win and prove you didn't measure up while doing it.. No chance on suiciding,, that's just not him..

[army of nobunaga]

Ok you guys want to defend your cheating buddy?

Then someone riddle me this with LOGIC

How does a guy
Feudal War Sergeant98 +302 105 from 159(66%)

That obviously knows a little about feudal, come out of Imp dynasty with no real purpose.. He did not even take a villiage. He just crashed through neutrals.... THATS ALL HE DID. WHY? TEll me ... Why in Assassin do you crash through neutrals to ONLY end up with less than half of everyone elses troop count... This guy is pathetic. If he didnt want to play the stupid online risk speed game, then he shouldnt have... HE definitly should have had enough personal fortitude to not let points matter so much he throws it.

Listen.. I dont give a flip if he is warned, I dont give a crap if nothing happens... I could care less about this loser.
But do not try to cover up with "I know this guy" bullsh....
Because that is not logic, that is not explaination... That doesnt fly in my camp.

The only thing about this that I do feel passionate about is this- if this was a freemium lowbie... well I think you would see a different outcome.