Dice Complaints and Various Suggestions to Fix Them

[drunkmonkey]

Ok I just lost 3 straight rolls in and 8 > 2 matchup. Fix the damn dice system. This shit isn't worth paying for at this point.

The dice are broken, and the results of 3 rolls is your proof? I'd explain statistics to you, but I get the feeling it would be like teaching physics to a goldfish.

[rufus2021]

Ok I just lost 3 straight rolls in and 8 > 2 matchup. Fix the damn dice system. This shit isn't worth paying for at this point.

The dice are broken, and the results of 3 rolls is your proof? I'd explain statistics to you, but I get the feeling it would be like teaching physics to a goldfish.

Well nimrod, if you read my previous post you'd see it's not just three rolls. And since I'm not the only person complaining about this system I'd say that something needs to be done. Aside from your "witty" remarks. Now go back to the basement and wait for your mom to bring your lunch down.

[drunkmonkey]

Ok I just lost 3 straight rolls in and 8 > 2 matchup. Fix the damn dice system. This shit isn't worth paying for at this point.

The dice are broken, and the results of 3 rolls is your proof? I'd explain statistics to you, but I get the feeling it would be like teaching physics to a goldfish.

Well nimrod, if you read my previous post you'd see it's not just three rolls. And since I'm not the only person complaining about this system I'd say that something needs to be done. Aside from your "witty" remarks. Now go back to the basement and wait for your mom to bring your lunch down.

Ah yes, it's not just three rolls, it's "constantly all of the time". I forgot to add those in my calculations. Lets see...multiply that by 42 games played, subtract 5 wins...agh...no time for this now. I hear mom calling me upstairs for lunch. I hope it's pizza.

[rufus2021]

Ok I just lost 3 straight rolls in and 8 > 2 matchup. Fix the damn dice system. This shit isn't worth paying for at this point.

The dice are broken, and the results of 3 rolls is your proof? I'd explain statistics to you, but I get the feeling it would be like teaching physics to a goldfish.

Well nimrod, if you read my previous post you'd see it's not just three rolls. And since I'm not the only person complaining about this system I'd say that something needs to be done. Aside from your "witty" remarks. Now go back to the basement and wait for your mom to bring your lunch down.

Ah yes, it's not just three rolls, it's "constantly all of the time". I forgot to add those in my calculations. Lets see...multiply that by 42 games played, subtract 5 wins...agh...no time for this now. I hear mom calling me upstairs for lunch. I hope it's pizza.

Enjoy. Hope she slapped some pepperoni on that for ya!

[MNDuke]

I won't even get started on this, but the "new dice" SUCK. Please give us back the old system. I've already seen 4 people quit because of this, and have a feeling more are to follow. There was nothing wrong with the way things were, so why f*ck with it? All that's happened is CC broke a system that didn't need fixing. I for one won't be renewing, at least as long as things stay how they are. I'll put that 25 bucks towards a new blow up wife.

[amazzony]

A lot of people get pissed at dice assault cubes, I get pissed at topics like this. Stop your complaints and give actual proof that you get more shitty rolles than good ones.

[TheForgivenOne]

I won't even get started on this, but the "new dice" SUCK. Please give us back the old system. I've already seen 4 people quit because of this, and have a feeling more are to follow. There was nothing wrong with the way things were, so why f*ck with it? All that's happened is CC broke a system that didn't need fixing. I for one won't be renewing, at least as long as things stay how they are. I'll put that 25 bucks towards a new blow up wife.

Actually there were just as many dice complaints as before then there are now.

[wolfpack0530]

Here is my THEN AND NOW!!

THEN

I for one, realize that there is not much more proportional dice complaining now than there was before the change. I for one, was also a staunch defender of the dice's randomness and 'to me' relative side effect of fairness that provided me.

I have always played the game and mapped out my attack path based on the simple thought, that all things equal, when attacking, I will on average kill as many armies as i will lose. I do realize that the attacker's advantage gives slightly better odds to the attacker, but i choose to ignore that for strategy purposes to keep myself from attacking to early and eagerly.

For instance if i need to kill a 3, 4, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2 for an elimination, i will make sure to have an absolute minimum of ..................4+5+2+2+2+2+2+3 or 22 armies (add one to occupy every conquered region). Then i like to add another 2 so i dont have to attack 2v2 or 1v1 at the end. This is my minimum comfort level stack.

assault odds rates the 22 stack as having 77% odds to win, and the 24 stack almost 87% odds (and this is the very first time i have ever looked it up )

Now that i see those %, i can honestly say that feels about right. Of course the 13 or 23% of the time i would lose, i would chalk up to bad luck or random prob. And the times when i didnt even make it past the 4 stack i would call piss-poor dice. But that happened rarely enough to where it seemed fair, because i also got great dice from time to time with a similar amount of rareness (going off of feel mind you)

to be contd

[wolfpack0530]

NOW

To extend the 'feeling right' analogy a little further. the assault odds calculator puts a 35 stack at 99.8% to win. When put into practice, i would confidently attack with that 35 KNOWING that only the worst of luck could allow me to lose this battle. Sure, I would come up short every now and then (maybe 1or 2 times every couple months) but it was expected to happen at some point, and it made sense when the actual rolls followed a similar level of rarity as mathmatically suggested.

Cut to the change, and i see an event that unlikely happening every goddamn day. sometimes 3 turns in a row. I know this is not PROOF to you all, i doubt that kind of proof actually exists. I can tell you that from observation, there is a NOTICABLE, and DISCERNIBLE Difference in how often these rare events occur. I have lost 28-0 auto attacking a neutral 4 , followed by starting with a 40 stack and killing over 90 armies over 15 regions and had a 15 stack leftover after i ran out of things to hit in that area. i think i lost 9. Then after that turn, i had negative dice in something like 23 of the next 25 games that day (i.e. lose 4 kill 2, lose 7 kill5, lose 14 kill6, 30vs 13 turns into 3v9). The two turns with positive dice went like kill17 lose 1, kill29 lose 14 or something. At the end, if you added them all up, in the 23 negative games i was lost like 30-40 more than i killed. in the two positive games, i was like +25.

combine the numbers and an impartial observer may say,
" hey whiney crybaby pussy bitch,get your moms tittie out of your mouth and realize that you just played 25 games, had like 800 rolls and are only down 15 armies. quit being such a dochebag."

But even though the two huge plus games make up for the minus gap, the end result is this: I just spent 2 hours getting dice fucked in almost every damn game, and because i was "lucky enough" to auto a 75 stack bordering my last 6 armies and trim it by 30, the numbers even themselves out and now i am a crybaby bitch if i even mention it. aaaaannnnnndd i just saw about a 30 events that are only supposed to happen .05% of the time or fewer on average.

Hmmmmm something feels different than before. this never ever happened to me in almost 3500 games, now i have seen it twice in 5 days????? what is going on????


one last cont

[wolfpack0530]

coming full circle.

As a member of this site for almost 2 years, and not missing a single day of logging in for a good 16 months straight, while keeping a gameload between 50 - 150, i feel like my non-factual examples should still have some merit.

I am not some noob who doesnt understand how streaks can look crazy in skewed in the short term. I am a seasoned vet who remembers how the dice used to be, knew and strategized form the probabilities that i had gotten used to through experience. (i also played with no BOB for a good 4 months after i made colonel (for a little extra challenge), and kept that hat for a solid 6 weeks or so. That made me feel even more in touch with the feel of the dice.

I tell you all this now, it is not that the sheer number of complaints has gotten fewer or more than before. It is WHO IS COMPLAINING that should also get acknowledged.

Now, many of the complainers are former STAUNCH dice supporters who have seen the same thing that i have and have confirmed in their mind that the dice are fucked up somehow just as i have.

I used to have a full on addiction to this site in the fact that i really looked forward to takig my turns every morning and every evening. Now i can barely give a rats ass. The only reason i am still here is the loyalty and commitments i have made with my clan who are a stand up bunch. They are the only fun that is left in this empty shell of a once amazing site.



And to lack ..... well......, i hope you realize that the voices complaining are not the same ones as before, these are the ones who have renewed in the past and planned to again. you may just have a grip of all star freemies soon

[TheForgivenOne]

So maybe instead of complaining, give a liable option to use? You complain and think he is magically going to find a perfect solution. How about go roaming the interweb, find a site, and offer it up to lack?

Personally, I haven't seen a change from the time before lack changed the dice, to the time after.

[Metsfanmax]

I tell you all this now, it is not that the sheer number of complaints has gotten fewer or more than before. It is WHO IS COMPLAINING that should also get acknowledged.

Personally, I wouldn't care if President Obama came in the thread and said "My fellow Americans, it is clear today that the dice system is broken. There is far too much support for the large stacks, while the small stacks that you and I have are constantly being eaten away while we are powerless to do anything. But now that will change, because I plan to pass a bill which will require that everyone get the same rolls, regardless of rank or status."

He'd still be wrong.

[wolfpack0530]

So maybe instead of complaining, give a liable option to use? You complain and think he is magically going to find a perfect solution. How about go roaming the interweb, find a site, and offer it up to lack?

Personally, I haven't seen a change from the time before lack changed the dice, to the time after.

your sarcasm is wasted on me. And in the freedom that is this interweb, i have no such obligation to give a viable option, and in no position to create one, nor do i possess the specific knowledge to even say that one system is better than another from a logistical standpoint.

you are suggesting that complaining in and of itself, has no basis, merit, or value : and that alternate options do. I respond that that is a very presumptive statement which has even less merit, less value, and no basis at all compared to the complaint that stands alone.


I offer up no better solution, nor should i be asked to. I am not a computer engineer, a data processing program, or a random number generator. I am a user. Why would a man as savy in programing as lack, want me, or any of us underqualified users to come up with a solution at all? That is borderline assinine.

If you were being flip or sarcastic, i appreciate that, but we both know that was a mediocre attempt at best, but if you were being serious, then i suggest you think a bit harder next time before you say something so profoundly stupid.

I have only one point to make and one request. the rest is all just reasoning and semantics so those that are interested in 'why' i feel strongly about my point and request have an opportunity to compare it with their observations. Really it is a community service

MY POINT: I HAVE NOTICED A CHANGE!! AND DUE TO THIS CHANGE (be it real or imaginary) I FEEL THE FAIRNESS OF THE GAME HAS BEEN COMPROMISED ENOUGH FOR ME TO QUIT CC WHEN MY SECOND PREMIUM RUNS OUT IN FEB.

MY REQUEST to CC and the powers that be: DO NOT settle for this version of 'random' dice. keep looking for a better system, or one that translates better when applied. maybe 100% random is not the fairest medium? consider all options and keep looking to improve. In my opinion, the previous version was far far far superior to this one in practice. perhaps it doesnt match up in theory. The average user could care less about proof positive randomness, all we care about is fair dice. get them somehow, and get them soon, because i am witnessing an exodus of awesome players who i thought were CC lifers, myself included.

[wolfpack0530]

So maybe instead of complaining, give a liable option to use? You complain and think he is magically going to find a perfect solution. How about go roaming the interweb, find a site, and offer it up to lack?

Personally, I haven't seen a change from the time before lack changed the dice, to the time after.

your sarcasm is wasted on me. And in the freedom that is this interweb, i have no such obligation to give a viable option, and in no position to create one, nor do i possess the specific knowledge to even say that one system is better than another from a logistical standpoint.

you are suggesting that complaining in and of itself, has no basis, merit, or value : and that alternate options do. I respond that that is a very presumptive statement which has even less merit, less value, and no basis at all compared to the complaint that stands alone.


I offer up no better solution, nor should i be asked to. I am not a computer engineer, a data processing program, or a random number generator. I am a user. Why would a man as savy in programing as lack, want me, or any of us underqualified users to come up with a solution at all? That is borderline assinine.

If you were being flip or sarcastic, i appreciate that, but we both know that was a mediocre attempt at best, but if you were being serious, then i suggest you think a bit harder next time before you say something so profoundly stupid.

I have only one point to make and one request. the rest is all just reasoning and semantics so those that are interested in 'why' i feel strongly about my point and request. have an opportunity to compare it with their observations. Really it is a community service

MY POINT: I HAVE NOTICED A CHANGE!! AND DUE TO THIS CHANGE (be it real or imaginary) I FEEL THE FAIRNESS OF THE GAME HAS BEEN COMPROMISED ENOUGH FOR ME TO QUIT CC WHEN MY SECOND PREMIUM RUNS OUT IN FEB.

MY REQUEST to CC and the powers that be: DO NOT settle for this version of 'random' dice. keep looking for a better system, or one that translates better when applied. maybe 100% random is not the fairest medium? consider all options and keep looking to improve. In my opinion, the previous version was far far far superior to this one in practice. perhaps it doesnt match up in theory. The average user could care less about proof positive randomness, all we care about is fair dice. get them somehow, and get them soon, because i am witnessing an exodus of awesome players who i thought were CC lifers, myself included.

[wolfpack0530]

I tell you all this now, it is not that the sheer number of complaints has gotten fewer or more than before. It is WHO IS COMPLAINING that should also get acknowledged.

Personally, I wouldn't care if President Obama came in the thread and said "My fellow Americans, it is clear today that the dice system is broken. There is far too much support for the large stacks, while the small stacks that you and I have are constantly being eaten away while we are powerless to do anything. But now that will change, because I plan to pass a bill which will require that everyone get the same rolls, regardless of rank or status."

He'd still be wrong.

That is valid (and a much much better example of witty sarcasm than the previous attempt by forgivenone).

I like you mets fan, even though we dont see eye to eye on this issue, i know for a fact that you know your shit on this topic, and are not blowing smoke. We just seem to be focusing on two far different aspects. we both consider a different variable to be the most important element in the flavor cubes, or intensity crystals, alabama molars, or whatever you want to call these things that roll 6s fourteen times in a row alot more often than before.

You (rightfully so) keep pointing to the certainties that the principles of randomness provide, and that speculation based on small sample sizes, or statistically insignificant results gives only wrong answers. To manipulate the system in any other way is akin to rigging the dice, resulting in less than perfect randomness or something along those lines.

While i do not (nor will even attempt) to discredit that aspect in any way, I will try and diminish the view that this is the most important factor. 100% mathematical certainty will take you a long way, but when it translates onto a physical manifestation, just being 'certain' does not suffice. Being 'right' does not necessarily translate into 'FUN'.

If this site were to be used only by supercomputers who just play the games trillions of times and gather data, then i would think that only the most perfect of all randomness would do. But since we are people, we play much slower than that, enjoy every turn, pause and think with no action sometimes, trying to win all the time; then achieving that fun overtakes random perfection in terms of importance.

I guess i am admitting to your first point now bakc in the other thread. took a while to see what you meant, but i finally realized it. Yes, that is what i want mets. Rig the dice, change the formula translate the properties of perfect randomness to a small sample size. guarantee me that i will only see 30 lose to a 2 times or less in a calendar year. if i have been unlucky enough to see it a third time, then elinate that specific possibility from happening through, code, manipulation or anything. make occurance of super rare events over 10000 rolls match their perfect probabilities of 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 rolls.

I want lack to consider all possibiliies, and even possibly reject the notion that randomness = fairness. i realize i have created a straw man above, and if i screwed up translating the jist of your arguments then i apologize for that. the point here was not to discredit you or even attempt to. feel free to continue to point out the flaws in my reasoning, as it helps my understanding of the issues. just know that i may continue to keep complaining that blue is actually red as long as i keep seeing the red happening every day lol.

[Metsfanmax]

I guess i am admitting to your first point now bakc in the other thread. took a while to see what you meant, but i finally realized it. Yes, that is what i want mets. Rig the dice, change the formula translate the properties of perfect randomness to a small sample size. guarantee me that i will only see 30 lose to a 2 times or less in a calendar year. if i have been unlucky enough to see it a third time, then elinate that specific possibility from happening through, code, manipulation or anything. make occurance of super rare events over 10000 rolls match their perfect probabilities of 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 rolls.

I want lack to consider all possibiliies, and even possibly reject the notion that randomness = fairness. i realize i have created a straw man above, and if i screwed up translating the jist of your arguments then i apologize for that. the point here was not to discredit you or even attempt to. feel free to continue to point out the flaws in my reasoning, as it helps my understanding of the issues. just know that i may continue to keep complaining that blue is actually red as long as i keep seeing the red happening every day lol.

There are two separate issues being discussed here. On the one hand, you have the argument made by many individuals that the dice are not actually random. That is, they "regularly" see some event such as losing a 30 v 5, and from that conclude that the dice cannot be random, because randomness implies that such an event should happen proportionately infrequently. The flaw in this argument, as you seem to understand, is that this does not actually prove that the event is happening too frequently. That is, the dice rolls have to be considered over a large set of samples, not just a small set from, say, a period of a few games. From a purely rational point of view, I believe that it must be the case that if you considered the rolls over a large sample, then you would see 30 v 5 winning at roughly its expected rate, since I trust the randomness of random.org numbers. I submitted an eTicket a while ago for lack to release some of the old lists for analysis, just to confirm that; the admin who responded said that this would happen sometime in the near future (doesn't seem to have occurred yet). Still, unless lack is lying about where the data comes from, I fully expect that the dice are random.

The issue that you raise here is quite a different one. There are two problems I see. The first is on the level on which you are trying to engage me. You say that it is more fun when you know that a ridiculously unlikely event cannot actually happen. I'm not convinced that this is true. I'm a frequent chess player, and what I love about that game is the pure determinism - at a given time, there are a finite number of moves that can be made, and you know exactly what happens when a given move is made. When I come to Conquer Club, though, I'm not looking for pure determinism. I'm looking for the thrill of rolling the die. I love it when I roll 30 v 20 and win basically every roll, or when I roll 5 v 7 and manage to grab the territory. It's a great feeling. I also feel lame when I roll 30 v 20 and it ends up being 3 v 12. But that thrill, the not knowing what's coming, is what I think is valuable about Risk, and that makes it different. It has every right to be called a pure strategy game, and yet you cannot avoid taking some risks to win. You have to hope that your luck turns out. Sometimes it doesn't work out for you, and sometimes it does. But if you take away the losing 30 v 5, you also take away the winning 20 v 40, and I don't want that to be taken away from me! ;P

The logical flaw with your suggestion is that rolls are not considered as a set - that is, when you go 30 v 20, you're doing several rolls sequentially. Even if you click auto-assault, the game engine processes each roll separately. You can't directly program a result such as "win 30 vs 20." You might say, "Well, in that case, just make it so that if I click auto-assault in this case, it just skips the dice process and lets me win." The problem then is - how many troops do you have left over afterward? Do you have the most probable result every time? If this is the case, then you have to take all of the randomness out of the RNG, because there's no non-arbitrary way to determine when your "hack" will be applied and when it won't be. For example, let's say you have borders in question - on one border, you have 30 troops and the opponent has 5, and on the other you have 29 and the opponent has 5. If you lose the 30 vs 5, your suggestion would imply that you should then have a guaranteed win for your next 30 vs. 5. But you could still lose the 29 vs. 5 attack, because your rule didn't cover that situation. However, it wouldn't feel any different - you'd still feel like you got terrible luck both times. There's just no feasible way to implement such a code!

[Queen_Herpes]

I love dice suggestions, They're so, well, "dicey."

Mind merging this with the other ones?

[wolfpack0530]

you know mets, i kindof have been aware of all those things that you mention. I guess there is a little self convincing that goes on when that originall 30 vs 20 becomes 16 vs 20 and you continue to attack and lose. then instead of saying i lost a 16v20, of course I lost 30v20. But it is easy to ignore that fact because there is no definate starting and stopping point persay when every roll has its own starting point.

Thank you for stating the matters so concisely, and go on searching for the feeling baby. we are all chasing that dragon in one way or another.

And feel good knowing that there are people on the internet who are open minded and reasonable enough to have their opinion changed, and admit such in an open forum. well done!!


for the record though, i still hate the dice lol!! lost 10 v 3 for the win, then when the opponent nealy wipes the board and has 175 troups left, (team game and he killed 3 other players) i cash for 50 and kill 35 over 28 terts and only lose 7 lol. the game was lost. what a waste of superb dice eh!

[MNDuke]

Fix the dice please!

This is getting ridiculous already. Just fix them.

There is no reason they should be this streaky. It's gone on long enough. Time to fix them.

[jefjef]

The correct suggestion is to end the manipulated random. We pay for honest random and it's only obvious what we are getting.

[MNDuke]

Better yet...just change my dice back to the old way. I don't care what anyone else prefers, they can keep the new ones, just fix mine. Thanks.

[Darwins_Bane]

Rejected

[Donlarry]

the dice are ridiculous the dice r so bad they cost me games ill have guys beat and in a good postion and i can tdo anything cuz the just rolls doubles and not a little or a ok amount ill get 4 0r 5 in a row so basically 4 or 5 doubles in per game i cant win like that its taking the fun out of the game cuz i cant compete there are several games i had won but the dice just give me doubles on this turn the turna after and the turn after so i cant even get the game its not competitive


people the dice are random but there not they are defiantly leaing one way

[TheForgivenOne]

the dice are ridiculous the dice r so bad they cost me games ill have guys beat and in a good postion and i can tdo anything cuz the just rolls doubles and not a little or a ok amount ill get 4 0r 5 in a row so basically 4 or 5 doubles in per game i cant win like that its taking the fun out of the game cuz i cant compete there are several games i had won but the dice just give me doubles on this turn the turna after and the turn after so i cant even get the game its not competitive


people the dice are random but there not they are defiantly leaing one way

They even out over time. You only ever remember the bad times over the good times. The dice have been thoroughly tested. If you have a better solution to the current system we have, then please, bring it forward. If they dice are bad for you, then they are obviously good for someone else.

[Woodruff]

the dice are ridiculous the dice r so bad they cost me games ill have guys beat and in a good postion and i can tdo anything cuz the just rolls doubles and not a little or a ok amount ill get 4 0r 5 in a row so basically 4 or 5 doubles in per game i cant win like that its taking the fun out of the game cuz i cant compete there are several games i had won but the dice just give me doubles on this turn the turna after and the turn after so i cant even get the game its not competitive
people the dice are random but there not they are defiantly leaing one way

I have to ask, Donlarry...you say that the dice are "definitely leaning one way"...unless the direction they're leaning is "away from Donlarry" (which implies a conspiracy I find not very likely at all), you're going to have to explain how they can possibly be leaning in any given direction, since if someone is getting crappy dice, then obviously someone else is getting great dice (the crappy die opponent).