New "Intensity Cubes"

[Qwert]

I dont know what you change,but i know that 6 game in row,i lost maybe 100 armies,and kill less that 20. Ofcourse from other side mine opponents get incredibile good dices and these 6 game will be lost very fast. So nothing change here,and still i get s--t dices like before.
I get good dices in 1 game,and then get all kind of s--t dices in 6 games, but mine opponent dont have these problems. Still dices have superiority over strategy,and i can not use strategy when dices not alove strategy to play.

by Dako » Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:30 pm

It only means that previous set seemed to favor attacker more. Now it is completely random.

When i attack,i lost,when mine opponent attack,again i lost. how can these be random?

by DBandit70 on Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:31 pm

The new dice program is the worst and most unfair and is seriously making playing the game not very much fun, because the dice runs are either so hot or so cold that the dice and not strategy is determining the games. I never complained about the dice before, but the difference on both ends is so definitely noticeable and for me troubling. I am not the only one feeling this way, and speaking for only myself, if this continues much longer I will be leaving. Please return us to the dice program that has been proven over 7 million games and that has grown CC to where it is today. I can not express enough my frustration

i play one game,and won after long and hard battle,where i had trouble to even get these so call "good dices" from other side,when mine opponent charge, hes dices are unbelivabile,and then kill almost all mine troops.
Big question its,why when i need to charge,i need to acumulate 3-4 time biger armies to win,and mine opponent with same armies kill much easier then me?
You realy need to create some program,who will put in first place strategy,and then dices.

[beersurfer]

I have changed the way the dice work once again, it should now be theoretically impossible to cheat:

This is how the intensity cubes now work:

• We have a series of 50,000 true random numbers from random.org
• Each time the game engine processes an assault or auto-assault, it select a random spot in the series to read from using a pseudo-random computer function
• Each time the game engine generates a random intensity cube, the next number is read in sequence from the series (e.g. in a 3v1 attack 4 numbers are read sequentially)
• The series of 50,000 true random numbers from random.org is replaced every hour

thanks for taking my suggestion to heart, lack .... now we can completely avoid any streaks ... so long as you arent auto attacking ... and by updating the file every hour ... there is no possibility of cheating allowed ... and that was my biggest problem ....

[bedub1]

I find this all very interesting. My understanding of how the "dice" work was far from accurate.

I feel like there is something wrong with reading sequentially from a file. It doesn't seem right. When I think about rolling the dice, I think about each die as being an independent random engine in and of itself. There is no "order" in which the dice are thrown if I toss 10 of them on the table....you can't read them sequentially...instead you need to read them in parallel. When the numbers are predetermined though in a list, and you pick a random spot to start reading, the other 4 numbers following the spot you picked are predetermined. I feel that although the list may contain random numbers, it's not really what we are looking for.

Why should the first 3 of 5 numbers go to the attacker and the next 2 go to the defender? Why not the first, third, and fifth to the attacker and the second and fourth to the defender? Should there be 2 parallel reads, one for each player, each spot chosen at random?

I'd almost prefer a random number generator to be asked for a number from 1 to 6 five times for a 3v2 attack, and not asked for 5 random numbers all between 1 and 6, and not involve any lists or random.org.

EDIT: Isn't there some open-source community accepted way of generating "true" random numbers?

[Dako]

I dont know what you change,but i know that 6 game in row,i lost maybe 100 armies,and kill less that 20. Ofcourse from other side mine opponents get incredibile good dices and these 6 game will be lost very fast. So nothing change here,and still i get s--t dices like before.
I get good dices in 1 game,and then get all kind of s--t dices in 6 games, but mine opponent dont have these problems. Still dices have superiority over strategy,and i can not use strategy when dices not alove strategy to play.

by Dako » Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:30 pm

It only means that previous set seemed to favor attacker more. Now it is completely random.

When i attack,i lost,when mine opponent attack,again i lost. how can these be random?

by DBandit70 on Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:31 pm

The new dice program is the worst and most unfair and is seriously making playing the game not very much fun, because the dice runs are either so hot or so cold that the dice and not strategy is determining the games. I never complained about the dice before, but the difference on both ends is so definitely noticeable and for me troubling. I am not the only one feeling this way, and speaking for only myself, if this continues much longer I will be leaving. Please return us to the dice program that has been proven over 7 million games and that has grown CC to where it is today. I can not express enough my frustration

i play one game,and won after long and hard battle,where i had trouble to even get these so call "good dices" from other side,when mine opponent charge, hes dices are unbelivabile,and then kill almost all mine troops.
Big question its,why when i need to charge,i need to acumulate 3-4 time biger armies to win,and mine opponent with same armies kill much easier then me?
You realy need to create some program,who will put in first place strategy,and then dices.

So do you have an idea or explanation why dice favors your opponent (all the time different people) and not you? Or is it that CC is coded that way that it is designed to always humiliate you by giving you bad dice?

I find this all very interesting. My understanding of how the "dice" work was far from accurate.

I feel like there is something wrong with reading sequentially from a file. It doesn't seem right. When I think about rolling the dice, I think about each die as being an independent random engine in and of itself. There is no "order" in which the dice are thrown if I toss 10 of them on the table....you can't read them sequentially...instead you need to read them in parallel. When the numbers are predetermined though in a list, and you pick a random spot to start reading, the other 4 numbers following the spot you picked are predetermined. I feel that although the list may contain random numbers, it's not really what we are looking for.

Why should the first 3 of 5 numbers go to the attacker and the next 2 go to the defender? Why not the first, third, and fifth to the attacker and the second and fourth to the defender? Should there be 2 parallel reads, one for each player, each spot chosen at random?

I'd almost prefer a random number generator to be asked for a number from 1 to 6 five times for a 3v2 attack, and not asked for 5 random numbers all between 1 and 6, and not involve any lists or random.org.

EDIT: Isn't there some open-source community accepted way of generating "true" random numbers?

There are no true random numbers in the computer world. Reading from the list saves the memory and is easier to maintain. I think you don't see that reading from the file sequentially is the same as reading them in parallel or throwing them in real life.

For example. You need to roll 3 dices. You ask your friend to do so. He goes to the other room and rolls them himself (but you don't see how he does that). Then he returns and says "I rolled 6,3 and 2". He actually rolled him so his process was random. But the results he has given you were predefined from your point of view. But they are still random for everyone else (and you, but you are not focused on that part). And the file on CC acts as this friend of yours. He just have rolled 500k dices an hour ago and can tell you the results straight away.

I mean, when you ask the computer to get a random number - computer's answer can be interpreted as "I rolled for you 6". It is the same as on CC. Computer know the results before he tells you so.

This is all just a question of people view on things and the ability to logic in abstract way.

[Dako]

And it always made me laugh when people are whining about bad dice. They ask it to fix so attacker wins more (because they got a random streak that appeared to be bad for them). They actually ask the dice to be _less_ random. This is funny.

[natty dread]

And it always made me laugh when people are whining about bad dice. They ask it to fix so attacker wins more (because they got a random streak that appeared to be bad for them). They actually ask the dice to be _less_ random. This is funny.

Yeah, tell me about it.

I have noticed some change in the dice, but for the better IMO. I used to be able to "sniff" the good streaks to some extent - for example, if I got lots of -2 rolls I would stop rolling for a while and continue a while later, and I would get good rolls again. This way I could maximize good rolls.

But now, the dice are a lot more unpredictable and less streaky, and think this is what the people who now complain about the dice are noticing.

So even if this does mean people can't use their pseudo-scientific dice delay strategies anymore, I think it's a good change since it levels the playing ground: previously people who didn't know about the whole "roll & wait" tactics had a disadvantage, but now everyone gets the same rolls, good or bad.

So do you have an idea or explanation why dice favors your opponent (all the time different people) and not you? Or is it that CC is coded that way that it is designed to always humiliate you by giving you bad dice?

it's just a case of basic human paranoia.

[Qwert]

So do you have an idea or explanation why dice favors your opponent (all the time different people) and not you? Or is it that CC is coded that way that it is designed to always humiliate you by giving you bad dice?
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no,i dont have explanation,but i play 18 1vs1 games, and in 14-15 games these hepend in row,i get bad dices,and mine opponents get good dices. Now if you tell me that its normal to lost 15 games and win 3,then something here its definitly not correct. In several attempt i lost 10 against 3,not once,or twice,i lost probably 10 times in very short period.
These is what i say above,if you with 100 can not kill 30, or 10 vs 3 -10 times,you lost.
Ofcourse i will not say nothing if these things hepend to mine opponents also, but these is not hepend.
If random definicion its-lost,lost,lost,lost,lost,lost,lost,lost,lost,win,lost,lost,lost,lost,lost,lost,lost-then these is away to be random

[denominator]

So do you have an idea or explanation why dice favors your opponent (all the time different people) and not you? Or is it that CC is coded that way that it is designed to always humiliate you by giving you bad dice?
------------------------------------------------------------------
no,i dont have explanation,but i play 18 1vs1 games, and in 14-15 games these hepend in row,i get bad dices,and mine opponents get good dices. Now if you tell me that its normal to lost 15 games and win 3,then something here its definitly not correct. In several attempt i lost 10 against 3,not once,or twice,i lost probably 10 times in very short period.
These is what i say above,if you with 100 can not kill 30, or 10 vs 3 -10 times,you lost.
Ofcourse i will not say nothing if these things hepend to mine opponents also, but these is not hepend.
If random definicion its-lost,lost,lost,lost,lost,lost,lost,lost,lost,win,lost,lost,lost,lost,lost,lost,lost-then these is away to be random

There is a natural human tendency to recall bad events and forget the good events. None of your anecdotes carry any weight without statistical backing. Either run the Dice Streaks Add-On, or keep track of all your rolls, and then if you see the same runs post it here.

[bedub1]

I find this all very interesting. My understanding of how the "dice" work was far from accurate.

I feel like there is something wrong with reading sequentially from a file. It doesn't seem right. When I think about rolling the dice, I think about each die as being an independent random engine in and of itself. There is no "order" in which the dice are thrown if I toss 10 of them on the table....you can't read them sequentially...instead you need to read them in parallel. When the numbers are predetermined though in a list, and you pick a random spot to start reading, the other 4 numbers following the spot you picked are predetermined. I feel that although the list may contain random numbers, it's not really what we are looking for.

Why should the first 3 of 5 numbers go to the attacker and the next 2 go to the defender? Why not the first, third, and fifth to the attacker and the second and fourth to the defender? Should there be 2 parallel reads, one for each player, each spot chosen at random?

I'd almost prefer a random number generator to be asked for a number from 1 to 6 five times for a 3v2 attack, and not asked for 5 random numbers all between 1 and 6, and not involve any lists or random.org.

EDIT: Isn't there some open-source community accepted way of generating "true" random numbers?

There are no true random numbers in the computer world. Reading from the list saves the memory and is easier to maintain. I think you don't see that reading from the file sequentially is the same as reading them in parallel or throwing them in real life.

For example. You need to roll 3 dices. You ask your friend to do so. He goes to the other room and rolls them himself (but you don't see how he does that). Then he returns and says "I rolled 6,3 and 2". He actually rolled him so his process was random. But the results he has given you were predefined from your point of view. But they are still random for everyone else (and you, but you are not focused on that part). And the file on CC acts as this friend of yours. He just have rolled 500k dices an hour ago and can tell you the results straight away.

I mean, when you ask the computer to get a random number - computer's answer can be interpreted as "I rolled for you 6". It is the same as on CC. Computer know the results before he tells you so.

This is all just a question of people view on things and the ability to logic in abstract way.

Why pick from a list of 50,000 numbers when you can just as easily pick from a list of 6 numbers?

[Dako]

Because it takes time to reload 6 numbers and it is easier to maintain 500k numbers.

[DBandit70]

I am not a statistician by far, but I do know the basics of the average bell curve and the range of probably of certain events occurring and how often they are to occur. One of the dynamics of the game of "risk"-type games in it's basic form is that the attackers have a slight house advantage and in the long run they win. The dice were not ever and are not supposed to be fair to a defender.... that is just not the same game. In this game we do not want completely random events outside the normal course of probable events. Dice are random, but yet have a very predictable behavior over the course of time, ask any owner of a casino that runs a craps table. Fixed random dice have all but ruined any old aggressive strategy and I have noticed in more than two dozen games now that an attacker, that has held a clear advantage in a game, placing at times 3 times the troops, finds himself at the mercy of the dice. I am at the point now that when I am eliminating someone, I go 1 territory at a time and stockpile because we no longer expect to know what can happen. The game is fair in the sense everybody has the equal opportunity to play aggressively and take necessary "Risks" thus the name of the game.

All that said, I do not understand all the changes made and not made to the dice, but in using these loaded maggots, I have without question noticed more dropping 20 men to take 3 than I have ever had in my life. I play almost 200 open games continuously, and have a history of approx 11,000 completed games and I play all styles and variations, and have not had any problems with the dice for three years. Of course I have had my many bad runs and many good runs, my bad loses and my incredible wins, and in all that I have never felt cheated or that I cheated someone out of a win, maybe frustrated, but never cheated. In the course of the past month, I feel as is I am using dice that are loaded and are cheaters dice. I feel I have been cheated out of games that I clearly had position in, and I also, have also won games that I never should have won. So the critics will say, "look, it all balances out," I say I do not want to win that way, nor lose that way. I love CC and play it daily, so I find it difficult to be here complaining, but I can not in good conscience play with cheaters dice, win or lose. Few people take the time to speak, let alone even read the forums, and on such an issue as this, to not have many even aware of changes is also unfair and every supporter of the site deserves at least an important E-mail to describe the changes and in layman's terms explain how the strategy of the game is effected.

I predict this issue could be of such importance as to take CC and it's community to another level, separating it from the core base and ultimately the foundations which have built this site will in time crumble away. I really hope that not to be the case, because I enjoy playing here immensely and wish for only the best CC. Well that is my rudimentary attempt to sound knowledgeable, now time for the wolves to come for lunch

[DBandit70]

Just happened again Macedonia escalating game 12 to kill 4 and I lose, how is that the new norm???????

[sherkaner]

I think it became more random.
I've reinstalled the dice streaks script since I was really unlucky just after this change. The dice are quite normal since I installed it, a bit more streakier maybe (but I think the dice before were a little too not-streaky actually).

[mpjh]

streaks are expected in random dice -- my losing more wasn't

got to be much, much more cautious

throwing out the old "1.5 + 1 for territories" rule

using the double or stay put rule now

[carlpgoodrich]

Dear mpjh, DBandit70, qwert, and any other complainers since my last post,

Wow, some of you need to go take a math class. Unless you were somehow cheating before, the new system DOES NOT AFFECT YOU AT ALL. Period.

As others have said, if you are going to blame your losing on the dice, at least respect us enough to come with stats from dice streaks.

[DBandit70]

Dear mpjh, DBandit70, qwert, and any other complainers since my last post,

Wow, some of you need to go take a math class. Unless you were somehow cheating before, the new system DOES NOT AFFECT YOU AT ALL. Period.

As others have said, if you are going to blame your losing on the dice, at least respect us enough to come with stats from dice streaks.

I do not have a stat program, but the change has been so noticeable that it really has not been needed. And not in any way am I complaining about losing.... I have lost more games in 3 years than most have played and have had my bad games, bad days, and even bad weeks, so do not mistake my frustration for losing a few games. Like I said in my post, I have had unreal good fortune with the dice also. Twice last week I was able to secure 12 regions from the starting 2 on the feudal map, which I have never been able to do before. In a game I had lost and was suiciding men, approx 26 men took out a stack of 50+ and had enough left to clear a bonus and my opponent deployed 7 next round was unable to break my wall of 2 and I won the game. So in no way am I complaining about wins or loses, it is how the game plays now versus how it did just 6 weeks ago.

[lackattack]

So in no way am I complaining about wins or loses, it is how the game plays now versus how it did just 6 weeks ago.

The new dice should not actually behave differently from the old ones. They should be just as "streaky" and just as "biased", because random numbers are naturally streaky and our memory is naturally biased.

Beleive it or not, the only thing that has changed since 6 weeks ago is your luck and perception.

[mpjh]

lol, and I thought this was a game of cold, objective skill.

[Dako]

This is a game of skill because with your deploys, attacks and reinforcements you can alter the odds and increase chances to win using random intensity cubes.

[Backside]

Oh boy that was a fun as well as interesting ride to read through the 10 pages straight. yeps that latest change rly makes it as fair as it's possibly needed.
Yes i know it's quite immature to laugh at incorrect things that ppl shout out as complains, but that DB's long comment was just so hilarious that i believe he made it for comedic purpose rather than being serious. beg my pardon if it weren't so tho.

(I hope i can do some difference with these examples for less thinking complainers as well ^^)
Ment like these: "The dice were not ever and are not supposed to be fair to a defender" (A: Dice is supposed to be same in any situation and that's random. odds are completely other thing) "that is just not the same game" made it just more harder to take this seriously.
"Dice are random, but yet have a very predictable behavior over the course of time, ask any owner of a casino that runs a craps table." (well i know that those dices are balanced quite accurately even with 6 side having more holes not making it lighter well if 1 side haven't been kissed for good luck, then it's heavier and stickier or because other minor stuff. well anyways besides regular throwers (like ivey ;P) there is much of cheating that the face (yes more than in CC) and have to try eliminate. i wud not be too surprised that they had more sixes in their records or well ones as well than supposed because of slips in security ^^ that just as example of various different styles to cheat in crap tables that security needs to be aware. well if caught, casino keeps it all so on that notation i wasn't couraging anyone since u prolly wud lose more than u wud to just casinos normal cut ^^)

Well ok rest about it was around that first thing and like i said before; attacking rolls (3v2 example) are better because of odds not because anything is fixed. those odd are calculated from all possible random rolls. so nothing is changed nor being more streaky affects it.

As u said urself "it all balances out", but yeh just saying that i wud be a monkey so yeh i'll do a short explanation: reason y it balances is because these changes affect to every single guy here. if i suppose it's more streaky. then it shud rly affect mostly on bottom and top end guys drawing em little more towards the middle since it's little more luck than skill heavy, BUT (big but ^^) it still won't affect anyways on gaps between players since it affects on everyone. (yes i know did not talk about game selection between more skill or luck heavy ones since it's irrelevant and u shud not even compare results in different styles of games together)

like i say to all non profitable poker players too. if u don't like the luck factor created by dices, cards... etc. form of chance. u can go play board games without em (chess... etc.)
then u can only just truly blaim urself (ok well u might also blaim ur teacher if u have one lol).

without long term data proving the complains (which u rly can't have this soon) or innovative solution discuss, these mpjh, DBandit70, qwert... kind of complains are fairly useless in any other than comedic purpose (which i admit made this topic little more funner to read through as some side comments on those ^^)

(heh i prolly will still use that sit&wait tactic as well as rolling random until i get win and then go with auto-assault as good luck thing as i at least always thought it was)

so u don't forgot the original reason i was gonna post ^^; thx guys for all the job to making sure random is random and stays random. if i don't need to be worried about dices, that means that some does his job right thx lack and buds.

sry for sum of topic, but as sum guys know me. they prolly knew what was coming if i red this topic and got excited about schooling lol xD

edit: well at least i assume that streaks don't affect example 12(11)v5 not being 94.3% or otherwise i dunno what i do waaah lol. as i use math and formulas for every move i make i wud feel highly uncomfortable to play since i think math is absolute and base for everything in world of gaming. i mean if we assume that there are more streaks (which i don't know how to calculate) then low/high chance attacks shud be pulled more towards 50%. well yeh i cud do crazy amount of high/low also as middle ones end attacks and see how those match with expected chance what is calculated basing on that dice is absolutely random. as i'm not going to do that nor do i know if previous way was less or more accurate to absolute random, I can't rly object against it ^^
So nutshell: as long as i can count on math instead of having to use fixed math it's all the same to me.

[Tennisie]

On 11/22/2007, I lost 87 armies to zero on a single auto-attack during a Classic map freestyle speed game. This should happen only once in about 10^40 rolls, but the CC admin verified that it was not a server error, just "very bad luck". (I award him a medal for understatement.)

I proffer the above disaster merely to provide perspective on what randomness can do versus our expectations about the future. The real problem with randomness is not that you can't predict future results, but that the oscillations in "luck" make it difficult to determine which strategies and tactics work well and which don't. After all, strategy and tactics are the only variables we control since the randomness of the rolls make the dice results "uncontrolled".

[carlpgoodrich]

Lack, since you are now changing the list of random numbers every hour, would it be possible to post them (or at least a few of them) after they have been taken down? As is clear from my previous posts, I have absolutely no doubts about their "randomness," but it would still be fun to analyze the files. Plus, I think this kind of transparency would be a huge step towards ending dice complaining.

[jaimito101]

I think this kind of transparency would be a huge step towards ending dice complaining.

there will never be an end to dice complaining.

[jammyjames]

im just waiting for the good dice now wouldn't mind if they showed up some day soon.

[bedub1]

Because it takes time to reload 6 numbers and it is easier to maintain 500k numbers.

Easier to maintain 500k than 6? Are you serious? Or is that a joke? Cause I'd love to see your logic that 500k is easier than 6.

If you guys love this list full of random numbers so much, then next time you play risk in real life or maybe yahtzee, try to convince all your friends to give up on the dice and just use the list of random numbers instead. Try and convince them that it's the same.

EDIT: If you have a list of 500k random numbers, then you need exactly 83,333.333333... of each number in order to maintain your probability of 1 out of 6. If your random list of numbers doesn't have a perfect distribution between the numbers(which it won't since it's random), then the odds won't be correct.