Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 41/44 [Quenched]

[army of nobunaga]

The complexity under discussion is that of the graphical image, not the gameplay.

"We all understand Waterloo."

That's not a generalization.

well my well liked friend, like I said, my eyes are old and I HATE European maps and Im not so smart... and to be honest, I have no problems seeing or understanding this map.

thanx for the input.

I'm not saying you have trouble, I'm saying you shouldn't generalize that there aren't people who have problems understanding complex maps. There's a standard for legibility the map has to meet, no matter if some people can read other complex maps.

you're welcome.

the STANDARD should be maybe mitigated by the 100 unique ppl that say it is understandable.


Frankly, a map called dawn of ages made it to beta... I didnt raise hell there, but maybe I should have... It is a complete buttfuck hieroglyphic map. But maybe perception is key to the beholder. And I guess my point is here.. that the majority of the beholders say, LETS TRY IT. And the minority that says "I dont get it" dont even play a lot of CC like the rest of us.


so ok... there you go.

Im out.

for like the 5th time on this thread... and i knew I had you foes for a reason killer or what ever.

[ghirrindin]

You're missing the point. And probably intentionally so. Since this is the graphics department, it's visual complexity, as in legibility, that is the issue. No one is talking about a gameplay overhaul.

If that is the case, I apologize for my above post as it seems like I was misled by (and probably misread given the late hour) Jefjef's comments. It does take a minute to look the map over and grasp its intricacies, but I personally don't have any major problems understanding it. If I had to make a suggestion, my biggest graphical complaint would be the army circles for the naval battles seem overblown and are a tad distracting. Maybe toning those down would begin to reduce the "clutter" other people are seeing. I do like their compass motif, however. : )

Very eager to play this sucker!

[the.killing.44]

The complexity under discussion is that of the graphical image, not the gameplay.

"We all understand Waterloo."

That's not a generalization.

well my well liked friend, like I said, my eyes are old and I HATE European maps and Im not so smart... and to be honest, I have no problems seeing or understanding this map.

thanx for the input.

I'm not saying you have trouble, I'm saying you shouldn't generalize that there aren't people who have problems understanding complex maps. There's a standard for legibility the map has to meet, no matter if some people can read other complex maps.

you're welcome.

the STANDARD should be maybe mitigated by the 100 unique ppl that say it is understandable.


Frankly, a map called dawn of ages made it to beta... I didnt raise hell there, but maybe I should have... It is a complete buttfuck hieroglyphic map. But maybe perception is key to the beholder. And I guess my point is here.. that the majority of the beholders say, LETS TRY IT. And the minority that says "I dont get it" dont even play a lot of CC like the rest of us.


so ok... there you go.

Im out.

for like the 5th time on this thread... and i knew I had you foes for a reason killer or what ever.

I fail to see how 100 people should mitigate the standard when that means there are 19.681 others whose voices have not been heard and the people put in charge to judge the map see it as overly complex. For example, one of those non-Foundry visitors: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=119373&view=unread#p2633325

[army of nobunaga]

The complexity under discussion is that of the graphical image, not the gameplay.

"We all understand Waterloo."

That's not a generalization.

well my well liked friend, like I said, my eyes are old and I HATE European maps and Im not so smart... and to be honest, I have no problems seeing or understanding this map.

thanx for the input.

I'm not saying you have trouble, I'm saying you shouldn't generalize that there aren't people who have problems understanding complex maps. There's a standard for legibility the map has to meet, no matter if some people can read other complex maps.

you're welcome.

the STANDARD should be maybe mitigated by the 100 unique ppl that say it is understandable.


Frankly, a map called dawn of ages made it to beta... I didnt raise hell there, but maybe I should have... It is a complete buttfuck hieroglyphic map. But maybe perception is key to the beholder. And I guess my point is here.. that the majority of the beholders say, LETS TRY IT. And the minority that says "I dont get it" dont even play a lot of CC like the rest of us.


so ok... there you go.

Im out.

for like the 5th time on this thread... and i knew I had you foes for a reason killer or what ever.

I fail to see how 100 people should mitigate the standard when that means there are 19.681 others whose voices have not been heard and the people put in charge to judge the map see it as overly complex. For example, one of those non-Foundry visitors: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=119373&view=unread#p2633325

EXACTLY those 20k will see it on beta and decide.

[the.killing.44]

That's not how Beta works though—we're striving to place as finished a product as possible into live play.

[jefjef]

I really think that after all this cutting and trimming the small map looks quite readable.. and I'm trying to distance myself from the mapmaker position taking a good look at it from the user point of view.

I do agree that it's not the more 'user-friendly' (small) map around, but then again, people will only play it if they want to. But I'm quite sure that this map will have its niche among CC followers.

It's not complexity that's the issue, it's legibility.

Since November 2009, it doesn't look like a great deal has actually changed. Sure, there is slightly less clutter, but I remain unconvinced that the concerns about over-complexity have ever been addressed. Graphically, this is a very good image (and as I've previously stated, the artist is one of the better ones around the foundry right now), but I fear that the game board still requires some reworking, for concerns that have been raised and not comprehensively addressed.

From 4 or 5 posts up...

You're missing the point. And probably intentionally so. Since this is the graphics department, it's visual complexity, as in legibility, that is the issue. No one is talking about a gameplay overhaul.

I've intentional missed not a thing. I do not come to foundry with any agenda other than to help. But thanks for take on it.

YES this is the graphics thread. This map is legible. The number of recent posters who came to look at it attests to that fact.

What specifically do YOU not like? What can't YOU read?

Kab has asked and he is left scratching his ass and we are wondering what is keeping this from beta.

[army of nobunaga]

I really think that after all this cutting and trimming the small map looks quite readable.. and I'm trying to distance myself from the mapmaker position taking a good look at it from the user point of view.

I do agree that it's not the more 'user-friendly' (small) map around, but then again, people will only play it if they want to. But I'm quite sure that this map will have its niche among CC followers.

It's not complexity that's the issue, it's legibility.

Since November 2009, it doesn't look like a great deal has actually changed. Sure, there is slightly less clutter, but I remain unconvinced that the concerns about over-complexity have ever been addressed. Graphically, this is a very good image (and as I've previously stated, the artist is one of the better ones around the foundry right now), but I fear that the game board still requires some reworking, for concerns that have been raised and not comprehensively addressed.

From 4 or 5 posts up...

I think what counts against you jef, and myself even.. Is that we do not (not yet) make maps or spend a lot of time in this forum. So whenever we have a position that is against the establishment... instead of people looking at us as people that play a LOT of games and have valid points, we look like trouble makers.

Listen, I dont really like this map, but in my opinion it deserves to be in beta... Quiz me, I can tell you what attacks what and what the bonuses are... and like I said, im not that smart, and my eyes suck.


You're missing the point. And probably intentionally so. Since this is the graphics department, it's visual complexity, as in legibility, that is the issue. No one is talking about a gameplay overhaul.

I've intentional missed not a thing. I do not come to foundry with any agenda other than to help. But thanks for take on it.

YES this is the graphics thread. This map is legible. The number of recent posters who came to look at it attests to that fact.

What specifically do YOU not like? What can't YOU read?

Kab has asked and he is left scratching his ass and we are wondering what is keeping this from beta.

[MrPanzerGeneral]

Well done Kab' and all those involved. I reckon that this could well become one of my favourite maps, once I get the chance to play it. Good luck, I'm sure it'll get there soon.

MPG.

[army of nobunaga]

Just one vent here... and trust me Im really holding it back in this one.


How many dumbASS maps have we players watched that got to beta then map-dom.

I mean DUMBASS maps.

These guys have WORKED THEIR ASSES OFF AND MOST of cc In this thread wants to try it. So whats the problem. Their map is in all my honesty (its all I have) is one of the more beautiful..

Mr BENNNNNNN I HAVE NEWS FOR YOU. That little map you passed called Monsters... well even with Bob And a masters Degree, I HAVE NO FUCKING CLUE WHAT ATTACKS WHAT.

This is about as nice as I can be.

Im not this maps fan nor gladiator... Im not excited about another Europe map... but for fucks ssakes this could be one of the maps they put on the cover of CC site.. its beautiful. Its gorgeous ... Im afraid this is an example of the "mapguard" not passing someone not of the guard. Because my bad intellect and eyes understands this 1000000%


ok really end of my stuff here... gl guys, you worked hard.

[sonicsteve]

'Wessex' could work though?

I agree there is no ideal name, since 'Southern England' is too long and not worth adding another abbreviation to the already extensive list.

I actually quite like Wessex, but it ceased to exist about 800 years before the Napoleonic Wars, so is it in keeping with the rest of the map?

My foray over here makes me realise how much effort there is in getting a map out - keep up the good work guys.

[pamoa]

what about a name related to the channel

[sonicsteve]

Solent could make sense, Panoa. logical departure point for naval battles

[Kabanellas]

changed Sussex to Wessex and added a connection line between both parts of Istanbul.

Version 40

Click image to enlarge.

[alster]

Just a minor comment -

I don't get these "Stockholm" and "Malmö" are names (and in 1812, Malmö wasn't an important city at all - not that it is today, but at least it has a seizable population now).

I would use "Svealand" (instead of Stockholm) and "Götaland" (instead of Malmö). Then at least there would reasonably proper geographic names for those areas. City names don't fly on this map I think.

(But overall - nice map, very nice!)

[BoganGod]

Lets get the map into play folks. We can quibble about names for areas, what language that should be in, whether to use archaic spelling, and many other things. While we are debating names why don't we just play the map, looks ready to roll

[Raskholnikov]

Thanks for the changes, Kab. Wessex is great with me.

Army, thanks for all you support and for calling things as they are.

.44, have some milk and cookies

Alster, I realise that city names dont fly here, but your suggestions are a bit too Gothic for a Napoleonic era map.... As for Malmo, it was that or Swedish Pomerania, and for space reasons we went with 5 letters instead of 17.. lol At this point, my inclination is not to change them, but that's Kab's call. He's the one who has to put in the time and effort.

[ender516]

I will hold off on the "Sussex" to "Wessex" change until Kab weighs in one way or the other on the Scandinavian question. And good call on the connection for the two parts of Istanbul, since that is consistent with the line connecting the two parts of Malmo (or whatever it ends up being).

[Raskholnikov]

Tks Ender. You're great!

[ender516]

Aw, shucks, 'tweren't nothin' ....

[RedBaron0]

The line you added for the 2 parts of Istanbul only reinforces the idea that its 2 territories instead of 1. You've really gotta erase the Bosporus and connect them. It's at most 2 miles across, it's not a major geographical fudge it.

[Raskholnikov]

Absolutely not. It's very clear it is one territory with two parts across a sea way, just like Malmo in the north.

[Kabanellas]

actually, unlike the Malmo situation, I don't like that line in Istanbul either.......

In the case of Malmo the line exists to reinforce the idea of that piece of land belonging there. In the case of Istanbul, I do agree that it could mislead to take Istanbul by 2 regions.

[Raskholnikov]

Then put the Ottoman logo across the Bosphorus to cover the sea passage.

[Kabanellas]

ok, I'll test it

[Balsiefen]

Brilliant map this

Does the Russian winter kill two armies of the territory (as I assume) or act as a bonus of -2. Maybe good to clear that up a little.