AOS: Orient Express 1883 [quench'd]

[natty dread]

In the meantime, should you finish a draft in the near future, make another thread and when the time comes, if they will allow one thread, I'll merge the threads.

Got it, thanks However it may take a small while for me to finish a presentable draft... I have lots of research & map tracing to do.

Also I've been thinking, if this is going to be a proper map pack, the maps should probably have some kind of common naming scheme...

How about: "Epic rails: Orient Express" and "Epic rails: Trans-Siberian" (or simply "Transsib"... I picked that up from wiki and I kinda like how it sounds... plus it looks cool on cyrillic letters )


edit: I've now posted the transsib on it's own thread, but I hope it can be merged to this one.

[natty dread]

I'll do a little talking around to see what would be best for this map. In the meantime, should you finish a draft in the near future, make another thread and when the time comes, if they will allow one thread, I'll merge the threads.

So, any update on this? Transsib is posted now. Can I get them both on the same thread or do I need to work on them separately?

[Industrial Helix]

I'll do a little talking around to see what would be best for this map. In the meantime, should you finish a draft in the near future, make another thread and when the time comes, if they will allow one thread, I'll merge the threads.

So, any update on this? Transsib is posted now. Can I get them both on the same thread or do I need to work on them separately?

Sorry, I was at the Kentucky Derby all weekend and had little time for foundry matters. But I did manage to speak to my comrade in foundry arms and we've come to some conclusions.

A) Two threads. Just the way its got to be which unfortunately means TSRR, which looks awesome btw, is gonna have to hold on for some time.
B) This map is moving on to the gameplay.

[yeti_c]

The feel of the map isn't very "Orient Express" - although we're in Gameplay so we can leave that until next stop.

GP wise - looks quite solid - I've not analysed bonuses - the one thing you'll need to adjust though is the different between "express station" - and "express terminus" (Where'd the word Orient go?) - as at the moment they look too similar - it took quite a while to find the 2 termini in Paris and Constantinople... also - seems a bit strange that the last terminus is by boat rather than train? (But I assume that's how the Orient Express works?)

C.

[natty dread]

A) Two threads. Just the way its got to be which unfortunately means TSRR, which looks awesome btw, is gonna have to hold on for some time.

awww... but maybe it's for the best.

B) This map is moving on to the gameplay.

Yay!! Thanks guys

The feel of the map isn't very "Orient Express" - although we're in Gameplay so we can leave that until next stop.

Really? I thought the theme was quite authentic... Is there anything in particular that doesn't fit with the 1883 theme?

GP wise - looks quite solid - I've not analysed bonuses - the one thing you'll need to adjust though is the different between "express station" - and "express terminus" (Where'd the word Orient go?) - as at the moment they look too similar - it took quite a while to find the 2 termini in Paris and Constantinople... also - seems a bit strange that the last terminus is by boat rather than train? (But I assume that's how the Orient Express works?)

Yes, indeed the last connection was by ferry. There were actually several ferries along the way (one was across the danube river) but due to the scale of the map I had to simplify quite a bit...

The original route, which first ran on October 4, 1883, was from Paris, Gare de l'Est, to Giurgiu in Romania via Munich and Vienna. At Giurgiu, passengers were ferried across the Danube to Rousse in Bulgaria to pick up another train to Varna, from where they completed their journey to Istanbul (then called Constantinople) by ferry.

As for the difference between termini & stations, I agree, I'll have to work something out there.

[natty dread]

Click image to enlarge.

[isaiah40]

Can you make the Terminus's squares instead of circles to differentiate them? They would be easier to find that way.

[natty dread]

I could... not sure if that fits the style though. The square stations look better on the transsib map but here... I don't know, roundness is kinda this maps thing...

I'll have to think about it.

[isaiah40]

Or, you can have a train icon (outlined of course) as the terminus's!?

[ender516]

Maybe if the outer ring of the Terminus icon was black it woud stand out more.

[Industrial Helix]

What about using actual stations for the territories rather than circles or dots. I know The station in Istanbul was a pretty interesting building and could translate well onto this map.

The necessity of the mountains seems strange on this map. You were talking earlier about how the territories represented a more demographic, potential customers thing, why would mountains matter then? I'd say ditch them as people will be more reliant on train routes for bonuses, rather than countries.

Also Bosnia wasn't part of A-H until 1905.

[natty dread]

The Austro-Hungarian Empire occupied it in 1878 and formally annexed it in 1908. So while it techincally was part of Ottoman it was already occupied by Austro-Hungary at the time.

As for mountains, I find them necessary - it makes moving by train easier in many places. For example you can't cross the danube river, except by train. Or let's say you're in germany, want to get in italy but don't want to go through france or A-H, you can go by train...

Well, long story short, I feel the pros of the mountains & rivers outweigh the cons.

As for the termini: I was thinking, old maps very often use a star symbol to represent capitals (and both of the termini are in capitals). Now a star-shaped terminus would probably take too much space (as would a train shaped one) but I was thinking of a pentagon...

[ender516]

Perhaps a circle with the points of a star just barely sticking out behind it.

[natty dread]

Perhaps a circle with the points of a star just barely sticking out behind it.

I tried to do this but it's harder than it sounds... perhaps I should try doing it in larger scale then shrinking it to size...

For the record, IH, your idea of putting the actual station buildings in was also a good one, but I'm afraid they would clutter the map too much... Remember that I need to be able to make a small version out of this as well...

So anyway here's a version with pentagons:

Click image to enlarge.

[Industrial Helix]

Very true about cluttering the map, but I think it might be possible. Paris has a lot of room. Strasburg does not but Westphalia's border could b pushed up. Munich has room, Vienna with a little border adjustment would, Same for Budapest, Bucarest and Istanbul. I think its feasible. Although, the only thing I'm getting in terms of images is the Istanbul station.

Can a person double up on bonuses? So like I get Romania land monopoly for 1 and then grab the train station as well to up my bonus to 2?

A number of the bonuses seem too high, like Low Countries +4 for 4 territories? Then again maybe the bonuses don't double up. I should figure that one out first...

This is kind of a graphics thing but I think it worth mentioning now. The info on the bonuses ought to be in the same general area for the sake of clarity. Move the land monopolies bonus to the lower left and move the abbreviations to where Russia is. I think this will make more sense.

[natty dread]

Very true about cluttering the map, but I think it might be possible. Paris has a lot of room. Strasburg does not but Westphalia's border could b pushed up. Munich has room, Vienna with a little border adjustment would, Same for Budapest, Bucarest and Istanbul. I think its feasible. Although, the only thing I'm getting in terms of images is the Istanbul station.

I'll have to look into it when we get into graphics workshop. For now I think it's best to focus on the game dynamics...

Can a person double up on bonuses? So like I get Romania land monopoly for 1 and then grab the train station as well to up my bonus to 2?

Yes, that is indeed the purpose. Also you will get the autodeploy on the express station so the total bonus for romania would be 3.

A number of the bonuses seem too high, like Low Countries +4 for 4 territories? Then again maybe the bonuses don't double up. I should figure that one out first...

Low countries has (counting the station) 4 territories yes but it also has 4 borders to defend. I remember someone saying while I was making the Nordic map that each bonus should at least give enough troops to place 1 troop on each border, and I agree with it. Otherwise the bonus isn't worth holding...

Although I have purposely made almost all of the land bonuses too low. This is done to focus the gameplay more on the train lines... it will be harder to hold a bonus without the train lines.

This is kind of a graphics thing but I think it worth mentioning now. The info on the bonuses ought to be in the same general area for the sake of clarity. Move the land monopolies bonus to the lower left and move the abbreviations to where Russia is. I think this will make more sense.

Hmm. It does make sense, space might be an issue though... not sure if the land mp. legend fits in the lower edge... I'll give it a shot though.

[natty dread]

Sorry, it doesn't fit in there. Also removing the legend from the top right corner would open up a large space of gray unplayable area, which wouldn't look good IMO.

I think the current arrangement is aesthetically the best one. The elements of the image are in balance. Granted, you'll have to read the legend from two places, but I don't think most players will find it a problem, seeing as the map is so thin (it's wider than it's height) so at least you won't need to scroll around to read them...

One solution would be to put the lower legend in the upper edge instead of the lower, but I don't think that would look too good...

[ender516]

If all the text you don't need to read more than once is at the top of the map, you can scroll that off and see the turn buttons, statistics, game log and what have you beneath it with less scrolling. So if the info in the legends at the bottom could be incorporated into a fancy title block at the top, it might help bring the legends to one place where they don't get in the way, while stlll contributing esthetically.

[natty dread]

Well that would make sense, only I'm not sure if the lower (would-be-upper) legend has any room to incorporate the title in it... Besides the current title serves a good purpose covering up the non-playable britain.

But how about we leave the legend arrangements and such to the graphics shop, and concentrate on the gameplay for now?

[natty dread]

Bonus data
Name / territory count / border count / current bonus value (bonus with autodeploys)

Land monopolies:

France 7/4/3
Low countries 3/3/2
Germany 9/7/5
Switzerland 1/1/1
Italy 5/3/2
Austrohungary 10/9/7
Servia-MN 2/2/1
Romania 2/2/1
Ottoman 6/5/3

Train monopolies that are paid independently:

France 2/2/2 (4)
Germany 3/3/3 (5)
Italy 2/2/2
Austrohungary 3/3/3 (5)
Ottoman 3/3/2 (5)

Total monopolies (land + train):

France 9/4/5 (7)
Low countries 4/4/4
Germany 12/9/8 (10)
Italy 7/3/4
Austrohungary 13/11/10 (12)
Servia-MN 3/3/3
Romania 3/3/2 (3)
Ottoman 9/3/5 (8)

[natty dread]

For neutral values I was thinking -

Regular & express stations: 3
Express termini: 5
Switzerland: 3

All other territories start normal... although I could do the same as on nordic and code the territories that connect to express station/termini as starting positions. In fact I think this would be pretty much a requirement to ensure no 1st-round victories in 2 player games...

As for bonus values, I'm thinking of the following changes:

Increase italy train bonus to 3
Decrease ottoman train bonus to 1

Decrease austro-hungary & germany train bonuses to 2 each
and
Increase germany land bonus to 6 and austro-hungary land bonus to 8.

[Industrial Helix]

I'd be careful about upping hte Express termini to 5. Cause if its 5 neutral no one will attack it and will just eliminate players. You're victory conditions will be for nothing. If your going to make the train neutral, I'd suggest neutral 3 Terminals and neutral 2 stations.

But I highly discourage having the train start as neutrals. You have 8 stations on the express, maybe starting points with the rest of the map random deployment? You have 15 stations total, add one and make it so each player could have up to 2 starting points?

This map is about the Orient Express, I think you should do as much as possible to focus on the train rather than the territory and making the train lines neutrals is not a good thing.

[natty dread]

Don't forget IH, the express stations each get an autodeploy: the regular ones 1, the termini 2.

I've found that autodeploys on territories are a good motivation for people to take neutrals, as long as the neutrals are not too high. And when these territories are even part of a victory condition...

For example, on my Nordic map I had the capitals start out at neutral 3:s. The capitals there give +1 autodeploys and are part of bonus areas. I've never seen the capitals ignored in any of my games so far, except in the very beginning of course. When Nordic was in GP there were also people who were worried that the capitals would stay neutral for the whole game.

I think maps like Galapagos have caused the foundry to become overly careful on using neutrals. People freak out whenever someone wants to use neutrals on his map and go "watch out, those territories won't be taken!"... I say, with proper motivation, if the reward is high enough relative to the amount of neutrals to kill, the territories absolutely will be taken.

Think about the +2 autodeploy. 5 neutrals is nothing... considering that in 3 turns you get 6 troops out of it, and you can use either of the termini to build a strong train bonus.

Express stations & termini definitely need to start neutral, since there are not enough express stations for starting positions - and since termini get a higher autodeploy, I can't use mixed termini/stations as starting points - 2 people would get a huge advantage in the start. I can't use regular stations as starting points either, since there's not enough of them, and again, can't use mixed express/regular stations, drops wouldn't be fair. So this brings us to the situation where all stations must start neutral.

Maybe the regular stations could start as neutral 2:s, and express stations as 3:s.

[natty dread]

^ Then again, this is just my view on the subject, and I might be totally wrong here. Anyone else have opinions on the neutral values?

[Industrial Helix]

Ok, I totally missed the bit about the autodeploys... and now I'm starting to wonder if autodeploys might not be the best way to go about giving a bonus for it. Wouldn't the easy bonuses, two train stations equal 2 troops in France, be enough incentive? But then again at least one of those would have to be coded neutral... hmm...