Napoleonic Europe 1812 - Ver 41/44 [Quenched]

[Raskholnikov]

Yes, it does.

[ender516]

If I may suggest a change in the wording in the legend regarding battle sites, change "First 3 worth 2 armies" to "2 armies for first 3". It matches better with "1 extra army for each 2 additional". By the way, there are 2 "d"s in "additional".

[Kabanellas]

sounds good to me ender!

[Raskholnikov]

If anyone, esp. Foundry members, have any more comments regarding this map's graphics, please do make them now. We'd like to know what changes you want to be done to this map or, alternatively, that you are happy with it as is. Many thanks.

[natty dread]

The graphics look really nice. This is one masterpiece of a map... (although my girlfriend thought it looked "confusing", but she doesn't even play CC so it probably doesn't count )

So anyway... the only thing I would say is that I'm not a huge fan of the mountains. I find them a bit... well, boring. Seeing the beautiful mountains on DOA and Clandemonium I think Kabanellas could do better... However they do kinda fit the style and it's not a huge issue if they're not changed. But if it's not too much trouble I'd like to see some other variations of the mountains. Perhaps something as simple as adding a little size variation to the mountains would be sufficient... you know, make a couple of the mountains smaller, make them less uniform... perhaps you could also make them "blend in" to the map a bit, like reducing the outline of them slightly. I don't know, it could be worth a shot.

Well, I'm just thinking out loud here, take the suggestion or not, either way the map is looking really nice.

[Kabanellas]

Thanks Natty!

Well, I've tried several mountain styles and come to the conclusion that those ones would be the best to fit here. I want them to be intended as pieces/plate marks that officers could place in the map when looking at it.

Also, in this particularly map, with all its nuances, blending more stuff into it would just make it more confusing.

[natty dread]

Yeah, I get that... I still think they could look better if they were a bit less uniform, ie. throwing a few smaller mountains in there... But it's your call.

[pamoa]

I think you can improve them by removing the lower black line
so they fade in the map
giving some size variation about 20 to 30 % could help

[yeti_c]

The (bottom) legends are quite tricky to read on the small map... especially the right hand bottom one.

Also "Aditional" is spelt wrong on both sizes.

C.

[Raskholnikov]

Thank you for the spelling correction. We will deal with it.

As to the legibility of the legends on the small map, I think the writing and symbols are very clear and legible, despite the fact that they are small.

[ender516]

Just to reassure you, the XML is progressing well when I can work on it, but my time is a bit limited right now. A few things:

1. I have noted that, like Egypt, Madrid and Naples do not show as neutrals on the small map, but do on the large, so I am following that.
2. I have inserted all the neutrals I can see, and there seem to be 30, not 29, as stated on the first post. Can you check that this list is correct and complete?
   
   1. Aboukir (August 1798)
   2. Berlin
   3. Borodino (Borodino, September 1812)
   4. Boulogne (October 1804)
   5. Camperdown (October 1797)
   6. Copenhagen (April 1801)
   7. Dardanelles (May 1807)
   8. Egypt (Pyramids, July 1798)
   9. Istanbul
   10. Italy (Rivoli, January 1797)
   11. London
   12. Madrid
   13. Malmo
   14. Malta
   15. Moscow
   16. Naples
   17. Norway
   18. Oporto (Oporto, May 1809)
   19. Paris
   20. Sardinia
   21. Saxony (Leipzig, October 1813)
   22. Smolensk (Smolensk, August 1812)
   23. St. Petersburg
   24. St. Vincent (February 1797)
   25. Swiss Confederation
   26. Toulon (December 1793)
   27. Trafalgar (October 1805)
   28. Vienna (Wagram, July 1809)
   29. Voronezh
   30. Warsaw
3. It would be helpful to me to have versions of the images without the neutral numbers, and if possible, with the troop circles (or ovals, it seems) made fully opaque, so I can get the centering just right. I think I have things in pretty good shape, but it would be nice to check.

[Raskholnikov]

A. Absolutely. We will correct the small map.

B. Kab, you dealt with neutrals and map images, can you please check this?

[cairnswk]

Kabanellas, good work on this. And i apologise for not picking this up sooner, and i wouldn't blame you if you don't want to change this, but rcently in IH's 13 colonies we asked that his ship arrow routes be kept clear of the legend.
I can see you have some congestion at the bottom of your map, to the extent that the route Gibralter to Malta passes under the corner of legend.
I think you have enough room at the top of the map to "pull it up" a fraction so that there is just slightly more room "in the Med" so that arrow doesn't have to pass under the legend.

Also I checked back a couple of pages...have you a version of the small map showing the 88 armies.
It would be great to see this to determine if the 88/888 armies will cause any major routes/names to be covered.

[Kabanellas]

A. Absolutely. We will correct the small map.

B. Kab, you dealt with neutrals and map images, can you please check this?

I'll post it tomorrow, I have all the last files at the office

[Kabanellas]

Kabanellas, good work on this. And i apologise for not picking this up sooner, and i wouldn't blame you if you don't want to change this, but rcently in IH's 13 colonies we asked that his ship arrow routes be kept clear of the legend.
I can see you have some congestion at the bottom of your map, to the extent that the route Gibralter to Malta passes under the corner of legend.
I think you have enough room at the top of the map to "pull it up" a fraction so that there is just slightly more room "in the Med" so that arrow doesn't have to pass under the legend.

Also I checked back a couple of pages...have you a version of the small map showing the 88 armies.
It would be great to see this to determine if the 88/888 armies will cause any major routes/names to be covered.

thanks Cairn

Actually that line being covered gives some realistic feeling to the map, in my opinion. That happened because someone just toss that board over there (anyway, I don't think that legibility has been compromised in that situation)

as for the 888, I've pretty much tested the all map - lets see how it will look with Ender's XML

[Raskholnikov]

Actually that line being covered gives some realistic feeling to the map, in my opinion. That happened because someone just toss that board over there (anyway, I don't think that legibility has been compromised in that situation)

I totally agree with this. I actually like it very much like this. It gives it a 3D realistic feel, as Kab explains, without compromising legibility.

[yeti_c]

Thank you for the spelling correction. We will deal with it.

As to the legibility of the legends on the small map, I think the writing and symbols are very clear and legible, despite the fact that they are small.

Well - I don't think that they are... the script - especially in the bottom right hand legend is hard to read on the small map.

C.

[ender516]

I hope no one was worried by my silence around here lately. The XML is coming very well, and I expect to complete it with perhaps another evening's work. (Of course, if you have to drag the whole thing north as cairnswk suggested to clarify that Mediterranean attack route, I will need a little more time to adjust coordinates.)

Okay, in preparing the XML, I have the following additions and deletionsto your list of connections:

List of all territories and all connecting territories to each of them:

Sussex: London, Boulogne, St. Vincent
London: Sussex, Wales, Yorkshire, Camperdown
Yorkshire: London, Wales, Scotland, Copenhagen
Wales: London, Yorkshire, Ireland
Scotland: Yorkshire, Ireland
Ireland: Scotland, Wales
Gibraltar: Andalucia, Trafalgar, Toulon, Malta
Malta: Sicily, Aboukir
Copenhagen: Denmark, Yorkshire
Camperdown: London, Holland
Boulogne: Sussex, Normandy
St. Vincent : Sussex, Oporto, Trafalgar
Trafalgar : St. Vincent, Andalucia, Gibraltar
Toulon : Gibraltar, Provence, Corsica
Aboukir : Malta, Egypt, Palestine
Dardanelles : Crimea, Istanbul
Stockholm : Malmo, Norway, Finland
Malmo : Norway, Stockholm, Denmark, Hessen, Berlin
Norway: Denmark, Malmo, Stockholm
Denmark: Norway, Malmo, Oldenburg, Hessen, Copenhagen
Oporto: Lisbon, Leon, Extremadura, Andalucia,St. Vincent
Lisbon: Oporto, Extremadura, Andalucia,
Leon: Madrid, Extremadura, Catalonia, Valencia, Oporto, Aquitaine
Catalonia: Leon, Valencia, Provence
Madrid: Leon, Catalonia,Extremadura, Valencia, Andalucia
Extremadura: Leon, Madrid, Andalucia, Oporto, Lisbon
Valencia: Madrid, Andalucia, Leon, Catalonia
Andalucia: Lisbon, Madrid, Extremadura, Valencia, Gibraltar, Trafalgar
Paris: Brittany, Normandy, Burgundy, Aquitaine, Provence
Brittany: Paris, Normandy, Aquitaine
Normandy: Paris, Brittany, Burgundy, Belgium, Boulogne
Burgundy: Paris, Normandy, Provence, Belgium, Baden & Berg, Switzerland
Aquitaine: Paris, Brittany, Provence, Leon
Provence: Paris, Aquitaine, Burgundy, Corsica, Catalonia, Switzerland, Piedmont, Toulon
Corsica: Provence, Sardinia, Toulon, Aboukir
Piedmont: Provence, Switzerland,Italy
Holland: Belgium, Oldenburg, Camperdown
Belgium: Normandy, Burgundy, Holland, Oldenburg, Baden & Berg
Oldenburg: Holland, Belgium, Baden & Berg, Hessen, Denmark
Rome: Italy, Naples
Illyria: Italy, Bavaria, Hungary, Bosnia
Switzerland: Provence, Burgundy, Baden & Berg, Bavaria, Piedmont,Italy
Italy: Naples, Rome, Piedmont, Switzerland, Illyria
Naples: Rome, Italy, Sicily
Sicily: Naples, Sardinia, Malta
Sardinia: Corsica, Sicily
Hessen: Baden & Berg, Bavaria, Saxony, Berlin, Malmo, Denmark, Oldenburg
Saxony: Hessen, Bavaria, Silesia, Berlin
Baden & Berg: Bavaria, Hessen, Oldenburg, Belgium, Burgundy, Switzerland
Bavaria: Saxony, Hessen, Baden & Berg, Switzerland, Vienna, Illyria
Berlin: West Prussia, Silesia, Saxony, Hessen, Malmo, Warsaw
West Prussia: Berlin, East Prussia, Warsaw
East Prussia: West Prussia, Warsaw, Vilno
Silesia: Berlin, Saxony, Warsaw, Crakow, Galicia, Bohemia
Warsaw: Crakow, East Prussia, West Prussia, Berlin, Silesia, Belorussia, Vilno
Crakow: Warsaw, Silesia, Galicia, Kiev, Belorussia
Vienna: Bohemia, Galicia,Hungary, Bavaria
Bohemia: Vienna, Hungary, Galicia, Silesia
Galicia: Bohemia, Hungary, Transylvania, Silesia, Crakow, Kiev, Bessarabia,
Romanian Principalities
Hungary: Vienna, Bohemia, Galicia, Transylvania, Illyria, Bosnia, Serbia
Transylvania: Hungary, Galicia
Moscow: St. Petersburg, Borodino, Voronesh
Finland: St. Petersburg, Stockholm
Voronezh: Moscow, Kiev, Borodino
Borodino: Moscow, Voronesh, Kiev, Smolensk, St. Petersburg
Smolensk: Borodino, Kiev, Belorussia, Vilno, St. Petersburg
St. Petersburg: Moscow, Borodino, Smolensk, Vilno, Finland
Vilno: St. Petersburg, Smolensk, Belorussia, Warsaw, East Prussia
Belorussia: Vilno, Smolensk, Kiev, Crakow, Warsaw
Kiev: Voronesh, Borodino, Smolensk, Belorussia, Odessa, Bessarabia,
Galicia, Crakow
Odessa: Kiev, Crimea, Bessarabia
Crimea: Odessa, Dardanelles
Bessarabia: Odessa, Kiev, Galicia, Romanian Principalities
Bosnia: Rumelia, Serbia, Hungary, Illyria
Serbia: Bosnia, Rumelia, Romanian Principalities, Hungary
Romanian Principalities: Serbia, Rumelia, Bessarabia, Galicia
Rumelia: Istanbul, Greece, Bosnia, Serbia, Romanian Principalities
Greece: Rumelia
Istanbul: Rumelia, Anatolia, Dardanelles
Anatolia: Istanbul, Palestine
Palestine: Anatolia, Egypt, Aboukir
Egypt: Palestine, Aboukir

Let me know if you dispute any of my changes.

Note that in keeping with the legend, I am using "Swiss Confederation" rather than"Switzerland".

I would also like to make two suggestions:

1. The connection from Camperdown to the U.K. on the small map is somewhat ambiguous, since that peninsula of Yorkshire nearly meets the point where the sea route meets the London territory. I would suggest the following change: picturing the Camperdown battle circle as a compass rose, rather than starting at "W" and going west to London, and attaching north of the text, start at "SW" and go south-west, attaching at the capital shield. Then move the connection to Holland (which now starts at "SSW" and then goes south, then east) so that it starts at "ESE", goes east, then south.
2. The Brittany/Normandy/Paris corner is a little deceiving in the small map, because the "Brittany" text blanks it slightly. I suggest cheating the corner northeast along the Paris border to provide more separation.

I am enjoying this work, but I wish I could get more time to stick to it.

[Raskholnikov]

Your corrections are.. ahem... correct! Thank you for that...

As to your suggestions, I agree as long as Kab does.

Many thanks for all your hard work

[ender516]

Jumping back a bit:

something about bonuses:
Bonus from having a entire country, should override additional bonus from having a region of it
Example - owning Prussia and Poland should only give 3 (from Prussia) + 2 (from Poland) without an additional + 1 (from Warsow)
If that were the case you'd be receiving overrated bonuses for the number of borders you'd be defending.

So okay, let's itemize all these:

1. The Poland bonus overrides the Warsaw w/Prussia bonus.
2. The Confederation of the Rhine overrides the Saxony and Hessen w/Prussia bonus.
3. The Poland bonus also overrides the Krakow w/Austrian Empire bonus.
4. The Gibraltar and Malta bonuses with the United Kingdom do not participate in any other bonuses, so we have nothing to override there.
5. The same is true of the Orient w/Ottoman Empire bonus, but ...
6. the Russian Empire bonus overrides the Bessarabia w/Ottoman Empire bonus.
7. The France bonus should override the Rome and Piedmont w/Kingdom of Naples and Sicily bonus.

Does that cover everything?

EDIT: I would say it does, except that Illyria can contribute to L'Empire as well as to the Illyria w/Austrian Empire bonus. How do you want to break that down?

[Raskholnikov]

So okay, let's itemize all these:

1. The Poland bonus overrides the Warsaw w/Prussia bonus. YES
2. The Confederation of the Rhine overrides the Saxony and Hessen w/Prussia bonus. YES
3. The Poland bonus also overrides the Krakow w/Austrian Empire bonus. YES
4. The Gibraltar and Malta bonuses with the United Kingdom do not participate in any other bonuses, so we have nothing to override there. YES
5. The same is true of the Orient w/Ottoman Empire bonus, but ... YES
6. the Russian Empire bonus overrides the Bessarabia w/Ottoman Empire bonus. ie if the Russian Empire and Ottoman Empire are held by the same player, Bessarabia is part only of the Russian Empire bonus and does not give an additional one for the Ottoman Empire: YES
7. The France bonus should override the Rome and Piedmont w/Kingdom of Naples and Sicily bonus. ie the Empire bonus. France bonus is limited to original France. If a player owns France, Rome, Piedmont and K of N and S, he will get the Empire bonus for Rome and Piedmont, as well as the normal K of N and S bonus, but not the exta bonus K of N and S would get if it would control Rome and Piedmont: YES.

Does that cover everything?

EDIT: I would say it does, except that Illyria can contribute to L'Empire as well as to the Illyria w/Austrian Empire bonus. How do you want to break that down? Same as 7. The Empire bonus overrides the Austria with Illyria bonus. So: if a player owns France, Rome, Illyria and the Austrian Empire, he will get the French bonus, the Empire bonus for Rome and Illyria, the Austiran bonus, but not the Illyrian bonus that would be given to someone controlling just the Austrian Empire.

Thank you!

[Kabanellas]

updated versions with army circles -JUST FOR XML PURPOSES -

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

[natty dread]

updated versions with army circles

I don't like... too opaque. Makes it look like the map is full of holes... or like someone had went at it with an eraser.

[Kabanellas]

updated versions with army circles

I don't like... too opaque. Makes it look like the map is full of holes... or like someone had went at it with an eraser.

Nooooo Natty, that's just to help Ender inserting the army numbers

[yeti_c]

Thank you for the spelling correction. We will deal with it.

As to the legibility of the legends on the small map, I think the writing and symbols are very clear and legible, despite the fact that they are small.

Well - I don't think that they are... the script - especially in the bottom right hand legend is hard to read on the small map.

C.

Soooooooo - that'll be another of my comments that you've ignored.

C.