WWII-Stalingrad [QUENCHED]

[persianempire]

also , i only suggested manstein becuz i was thinking the hqs wer for fieldmarshalls only. if you decided to go with 2nd in command under paulus, then that is not rodenburg , he was the generalmajor of the 76th infantry division . parts of the 4th panzer army were in the city, herman hoth was commander but never made it inside so whichever of his generals was inside city would be next inline , being as after paulus is his adutant, and he didnt die so that is void. also i should have mentioned this earlier but the volga river itself was the only way for soviets to ferry troops to the west bank , which the germans could never take, but i guess there wouldnt be any room to even put ferrys on the water, then ud hafto set up artillery to attak them as well

Thanks Persianempire for the compliment. According to my Wikipedia sources (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Fourth_Panzer_Army), only the 24th Panzer Division of the 4th Panzer Army was encircled and destroyed, although that doesn't ofcourse mean that other divisions were never inside the city. As said before, the obvious choice for the second HQ would IMO be General Von Seydlitz-Kurzbach, as he was commanding almost half of the 6th Army's divisions. Even the location on the map is correct, as his divisions were the ones doing the frontal assaults on the city, as far as I can determine. Interestingly, Seydlitz also was one of the strongest backers of Hitler's demand that the 6th Army attempt a breakout of the encirclement (which he had successfully done in Demyansk), ánd one the leaders of Soviet-backed anti-Nazi organisations as a POW.

My Wikipedia sources don't claim that "Zhukov was never in the city", as I boldly stated. In fact, they do mention a short visit to "the front". But to me that is something else than actually commanding the fighting in the streets. It is quite simple: The Stalingrad Front (defending the city and its surroundings) was commanded by Yeryomenko from inside the city. The Stalingrad Front's most important armies were the 62nd (commanded by Chuikov) and the 64th. Being a local battle (the map covers a very limited area some 15 kilometers wide), it seems to me the most logical thing to do is have the local commanders on the map. Rokossovsky (as commander of the Don Front) only came in later, as the encirclement was being hammered out, and from a different direction (the north: wouldn't be much of an enCIRCLEment if he would also approach from the east). Zhukov was commanding the overall Stalingrad area.

yes the 24th division was encircled and destroyed by soviet forces , but as you urself said there was more divisions than 1 of the 4th panzer thant were inside the city. although they could not do much "blitzkrieg" in a bombed out city wirth rubble evrywer making tanks to move a snails pace and easy prey for soviet anti tank guns they wer still trying to fight. and 1 of hoths generals would undoubetldy be inside the city commanding watever dibisions of the 4th panzer that were inside , which was not many i know becuz the bulk was sent south for the oilfields.for which 1 of his geneerals was inside the actual city itself i suggest u comb through wikipidea and find the answer, becuz regardless a general of a panzer army takes rank 2nd only his own general (herman hoth) under paulus.

also man i hafot clear this up. hitler did NOT want the 6th army to break out of stalingrad . ALL of hitlers commanders and generals begged hitler , including paulus, manstein, hoth and many others. Hitler ordered the remainder of the 4th panzer army(hoth) and wat was left of army group don (mainstein) to break IN to the city from outside in wat was codenamed operation winterstorm. when they failed and were almost encircled themselves , they pulled away leaving the 6th army to its doom. hitler was still demanding they "hold the city at all costs" until the end when the 6th army surrendedred and hitlers promoted paulus to FM , so he would kill himself and save hitler some face.


although i can agree kurzbach would be adequate (altyhough it may be too late now for this mapnyways lol) becuz which of hoths commanders was in the city is quite cloudy and u need more research from wikipidea or werever to find out which of the 4th panzer army generals was actually inside the city itself.

[jasnostj]

also man i hafot clear this up. hitler did NOT want the 6th army to break out of stalingrad . ALL of hitlers commanders and generals begged hitler , including paulus, manstein, hoth and many others. Hitler ordered the remainder of the 4th panzer army(hoth) and wat was left of army group don (mainstein) to break IN to the city from outside in wat was codenamed operation winterstorm. when they failed and were almost encircled themselves , they pulled away leaving the 6th army to its doom. hitler was still demanding they "hold the city at all costs" until the end when the 6th army surrendedred and hitlers promoted paulus to FM , so he would kill himself and save hitler some face.

You are probably right about this. I think I picked up somewhere that Hitler wanted a breakout, but I am not even sure.

[persianempire]

yes my friend its true. you see hitler and stalin both became obssessed with stalingrad . hitler would not give the order for the 6th to breakout becuz he did not want to give up the city. he ordered german forces to break in which was impossible. the wehrmacht han no supplys and could do little to nothing to break the red now massive soviet war machine. they both wanted the city at all costs for you see the propaganda for the victors would decide the outcome of the war and every1 new it. here are some d ocs if you want learn more. “Stalingrad” , “warlords-hitler vs stalin”, “road to stalingrad” , “apocalypse” , “world at war”.

[lt_oddball]

so much for history lessons and interpretations...
let's stick to issues of the MAP alone... thank you.

[persianempire]

the issue was that the map be accurate, that was the issue

[jasnostj]

Whether Hitler did or did not order a breakout was not the issue. The question was which commanders should be on the map. That point has been made.

[thenobodies80]

I think that what cairnswk really needs now is to understand if the community is happy with the graphics of this map, if something could be improved, if someone has problem with this map. For example colors are fine? something is unclear or hard to read?

Personally i think that you should only try to use different colors for the S1 and S3 snipers because, looking your colorblind test i think it could cause problems for colorblind people to understand exactly what territories they bombard.
Both versions look very good with 888.

[cairnswk]

OK. some decisions made, and i have been watching and listeneing to the debate....

1. Since Paulus commanded the overall operation he has position near Pitomnik airfield and at the rear of the 60th Panzer divisions.
2. 76th and 72nd panzer divs renamed to 60th variations.
3. the other HQ goes to Hartman where i have him behind the G 71st Infantry which he was in charge of.
4. Yeremenko is back near Krasnaya Sloboda, and Chuikov near the airfield. Rossokovski removed.
5. I also have tidied up the colours for the sniper, i'm not entirely happy them but they work for the CB issue IMHO.

Once again aopologies to saraith for changes to the xml.

[persianempire]

but wat about the colorblind players , or bad eyes etc. its very hard to tell wher the sniper targets are dude even for me , its easily confusing , i really thknk u should put in some see through thin arrows indicating bullet trajectory like that 1 version up a little ways in this thread

[cairnswk]

but wat about the colorblind players , or bad eyes etc. its very hard to tell wher the sniper targets are dude even for me , its easily confusing , i really thknk u should put in some see through thin arrows indicating bullet trajectory like that 1 version up a little ways in this thread

There are no more arrows going on this map, i f people are unsure about snipers, they can look at the front of the thread...a map is there.

[cairnswk]

I think that what cairnswk really needs now is to understand if the community is happy with the graphics of this map, if something could be improved, if someone has problem with this map. For example colors are fine? something is unclear or hard to read?

Personally i think that you should only try to use different colors for the S1 and S3 snipers because, looking your colorblind test i think it could cause problems for colorblind people to understand exactly what territories they bombard.
Both versions look very good with 888.

Done....above....but how did you check the 888s?

[pamoa]

but wat about the colorblind players , or bad eyes etc. its very hard to tell wher the sniper targets are dude even for me , its easily confusing , i really thknk u should put in some see through thin arrows indicating bullet trajectory like that 1 version up a little ways in this thread

There are no more arrows going on this map, if people are unsure about snipers, they can look at the front of the thread...a map is there.

come on cairns your map is great but this is not an acceptable answer
I mean "go to the front page of the thread"
is like go to hell
I know it's hard to find a good way to solve it
maybe the target names under each sniper...

[cairnswk]

...
come on cairns your map is great but this is not an acceptable answer
I mean "go to the front page of the thread"
is like go to hell
I know it's hard to find a good way to solve it
maybe the target names under each sniper...

no IMHO, this map is not great.
and i am not a mind reader, please explain further what you mean by target names under each sniper (as a way of positive contribution to solving the issue)

[lt_oddball]

but wat about the colorblind players , or bad eyes etc. its very hard to tell wher the sniper targets are dude even for me , its easily confusing , i really thknk u should put in some see through thin arrows indicating bullet trajectory like that 1 version up a little ways in this thread

There are no more arrows going on this map, if people are unsure about snipers, they can look at the front of the thread...a map is there.

come on cairns your map is great but this is not an acceptable answer
I mean "go to the front page of the thread"
is like go to hell
I know it's hard to find a good way to solve it
maybe the target names under each sniper...

then I say it "Persianempire go to hell !".
In the time this map was engineered under the scrutiny of some 50 interested forummembers over a lengthy period of half a year , it came out that that sniper system was the best compromise between all the complex desires of snipers, sewers attacks, booby-traps on one hand and game-map simplicity on the other.
Adding "thin see through" (so how clear can that be?) lines on a dark coloured map like this with already too many detail information (lines, borders, colours, names, sectors) clutters it up even more.
There is a big box on the bottom of the map that explains the sniper system in clear english.
If certain first time players are unsure then either they WILL ask it in the gamelog, or they learn it in the first maps simply by trial and error.
Have a bit of faith in human learning capabilities..even with the most simple minded.

[thenobodies80]

Done....above....but how did you check the 888s?

I've used the link saraith posted http://allenar.freehostia.com/CC/stalingrad_draft_1.xml maybe it's old but it's good to test if 888 suit everywhere
Snipers are clear now imo.

no IMHO, this map is not great.

Aren't you satisfied with your map?

[cairnswk]

Done....above....but how did you check the 888s?

I've used the link saraith posted http://allenar.freehostia.com/CC/stalingrad_draft_1.xml maybe it's old but it's good to test if 888 suit everywhere
Snipers are clear now imo.

Oh, i tried that link for the xml and it wouldn't work for me....anyways

no IMHO, this map is not great.

Aren't you satisfied with your map?

Up to a point. It's a very complicated piece and i just want to g et it over with after this long run of a year, but i know there is nmore coming because it won't reach beta for a while probably because of the slowness of the foundry.

[pamoa]

I thought
although the map is very crowded
you may try to put the target territory names
under each sniper position in the corners

[cairnswk]

I thought
although the map is very crowded
you may try to put the target territory names
under each sniper position in the corners

can you point out where that might fit?

[pamoa]

the same way you put the name on the top border of each sniper
you can try on the lower

[natty dread]

Honestly I don't see that as very feasible... the territory names are too long to comfortably fit near the snipers.

Really, this is a complex map, and if anyone presumes to be able to play this without reading the instructions then he deserves to be farmed on the map...

[cairnswk]

the same way you put the name on the top border of each sniper
you can try on the lower

Honestly I don't see that as very feasible... the territory names are too long to comfortably fit near the snipers.

Really, this is a complex map, and if anyone presumes to be able to play this without reading the instructions then he deserves to be farmed on the map...

I'm sorry pamoa, i have to agree with natty. there is no space to do such, unless as i said you can show me a graphic version of where to place these names. for the names on top there was space. i think you idea has merit, but the space limits that opportunity, and besides the snipers are already mentioned in the legend as Underground Fighting.
I am sure that players will understand this once they have played a couple of games on it. and the xml once again does also provide a guide before you attack.

[cairnswk]

V34

[isaiah40]

Well here it is 4 pages since my last post and all I have to say that this map is really looking good cairns! Hope to see this in Beta soon!!

[pamoa]

is it my eyes
Sheykin targets seems to have 3 different border colour
r13th div b is the best for me

[persianempire]

it_Oddball, you are a real asshole. i make a comment for the betterment of this map and you act like a douchebag??? i thought we are suppose to post wat we would think would make this map better, isnt that the whole fking point of this thread? or you guys just wana finish it ASAP then 3 months later say we shouldve changed that to make it better. See through, do you no wat see through means??? it means whatever it overlaps is NOT a problem becuz its just dark enough so that you can see it, but also light enough it covers nothing even when overlapping. SEE THROUGH you jakass.