WWII-Stalingrad [QUENCHED]

[jasnostj]

jasnostj, your right about manstein not reaching stalingrad but there are 2 german hqs on this map and it would look kin of retarted with paulus as 1 and just a random german hq as the other. but your wrong about zhukov. he was inside the city at all times , commanding soviet forces to “hug” nazi foces. in fact he was twice the hero of the red army for his efforts in stalingrad. i dont no why you think he wasnt but he was , at times his command hq was only a stones throw away from wehrmacht soldiers, it was his grittiness among his men in stalingrad that won the battle for stalin and sealed the fate of hitlers reich.

I may be wrong about Zhukov. As I said, I am not an expert. However, on Wikipedia (my favorite source) I don't find anything to support your claims. I do read about a lot of operations he was put in charge of, one after the other all over the Western front, so I don't see how he could be in Stalingrad for a sustained period to command the street fighting. Seems to me to be below his stature.

About Manstein: Why are there 2 German HQ's on this map? There was only 1 German army in the city, with only 1 HQ: the 6th under Paulus. Parts of the 6th Army could have separate "quarters", like the Romanians, but no other armies/HQ's should be there.

It would make sense to me to have a German HQ (Paulus) and a few subordinate German and Romanian commanders on one side, and a Soviet GHQ (Yeryomenko) with subordinate HQ's for the 62nd and 64th Armies (Chuikov and Shumilov, resp.) om the other.

(comment withdrawn)

[cairnswk]

....

About Manstein: Why are there 2 German HQ's on this map?

the answer lies in the distant past of this thread, please find it and read it.

It would make sense to me to have a German HQ (Paulus) and a few subordinate German and Romanian commanders on one side, and a Soviet GHQ (Yeryomenko) with subordinate HQ's for the 62nd and 64th Armies (Chuikov and Shumilov, resp.) om the other.

At this late stage (after gameplay has been done) i am not interested in changing things around.
Everyone has had ample opportunity to comment on this map as it has been up for near twelve months. Your late arrival does nothing to impress me.

You didn't respond to my remarks about the spelling of names. I hope you do appreciate them. Linguistics and geography geek that I am I couldn't stand the look of them, and couldn't help but putting quite some effort into correcting them. I hope it wasn't for nothing.

It is quite unfair of you to expect that people respond to things in a short time.
People respond in their own time, not to a schedule that you demand.

[ender516]

Perhaps he mistook persianempire's response for one from you, and wondered why it didn't respond to all his comments.

[danfrank]

It is quite unfair of you to expect that people respond to things in a short time.
People respond in their own time, not to a schedule that you demand.

[cairnswk]

Version 31 below.

Click image to enlarge.

[cairnswk]

...
1. Zhukov was never in the city itself. He was commanding the overall Stalingrad area (with Vasilevsky), not the fighting inside the city. Yeryomenko (preferred phonetic spelling) and Chuikov (wrongly spelled Chulkov on Denezhny island - the one on the right, looked it up) were the guys on the ground.

Chulkov will be changed to Chuikov. There is reference to both on the internet.
Zkhukov is changed to Rokossovski, who according to http://users.telenet.be/stalingrad/diary/caljan.html assisted Chuikov.

2. Mannstein was never in the city. He was sent to relieve Paulus, but never got there. The rest is history.

Correct according to http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen8.htm
Therefore i have left Paulus near the Pitomnik Airfield, and placed Rodenburg in the other HQ as per this reference (http://users.telenet.be/stalingrad/Divi ... ficers.htm)

3. Check up on the spelling of the geographical names. With my knowledge of Russian I can see plenty that must be wrong. On Google maps I can find:
- MamAyev Kurgan is the correct name for the hill
- Goemark=Gumrak
- Gorodische=GorodisHche
- Kuporosnoya=KuporosnoyE
- Sadvaya=SadOvaya
- Volga Isle=Golodny Island
- and last but certainly not least (how the heck did that train wreck happen?) Krasny Pkiybar=Krasny Oktyabr.

There is no need to be rude (with reference to the train wreck), so i may have got it wrong. All you need to do is point that out and give the correct name. Yes, there are certain discrepancies, some of which i will leave alone, but thank-you for
Golodny Island and Krasny Oktyabr. These will be changed.

[cairnswk]

No not the white border outlinr.
The image isn't only a copy/paste thing. If you compare the image i've posted with your map, you'll notice that i've added a coloured line around the rubbles. In other words the territory borders (red or black in the image) covered by the rubbles. Sorry, i thought you would have noticed it
Nobodies

I hope below addresses your concerns tnb80??

Version 32.

Click image to enlarge.

[jasnostj]

At this late stage (after gameplay has been done) i am not interested in changing things around.
Everyone has had ample opportunity to comment on this map as it has been up for near twelve months. Your late arrival does nothing to impress me.

Fair enough, understandable, and ofcourse totally up to you.
What should impress you is that I have knowledge of Russian (apparently unique in this forum), and that I am so friendly to share it with you. I'm not interested in visiting this site more than, say, once a year, to see what's going on (the generally hostile response I receive doesn't motivate me to step up the frequency). If my contribution comes too late to prevent inaccurate maps from surfacing (I've heard this reproach before), it is the mapmaker that should be sorry, not me.

(comment withdrawn)

[jasnostj]

1. Zhukov was never in the city itself. He was commanding the overall Stalingrad area (with Vasilevsky), not the fighting inside the city. Yeryomenko (preferred phonetic spelling) and Chuikov (wrongly spelled Chulkov on Denezhny island - the one on the right, looked it up) were the guys on the ground.

Chulkov will be changed to Chuikov. There is reference to both on the internet.
Zkhukov is changed to Rokossovski, who according to http://users.telenet.be/stalingrad/diary/caljan.html assisted Chuikov.

I'm not convinced by your reference link. Rokossovsky led the Don Front, coming in from the north. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Rokossovsky#World_War_II and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad (maps). I would have Chuikov in place of Rokossovsky, and call the island territories after its geographic name, Denezhny. I would make Yeryomenko the GHQ (Stalingrad Front), and Chuikov the 62nd Army's HQ.

2. Mannstein was never in the city. He was sent to relieve Paulus, but never got there. The rest is history.

Correct according to http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen8.htm
Therefore i have left Paulus near the Pitomnik Airfield, and placed Rodenburg in the other HQ as per this reference (http://users.telenet.be/stalingrad/Divi ... ficers.htm)

Check out this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad_German_Order_of_Battle. The position of your Rodenberg GHQ (skip the G) is taken by divisions in the LI Armeekorps commanded by General der Artillerie Walther von Seydlitz-Kurzbach (by far the biggest army corps in the 6th Army, encompassing 9 divisions out of a total of 22). Rodenburg's 76th Division was in the western end of the Stalingrad pocket, nowhere near where you put him (in fact not even on the map).

3. Check up on the spelling of the geographical names. With my knowledge of Russian I can see plenty that must be wrong. On Google maps I can find:
- MamAyev Kurgan is the correct name for the hill
- Goemark=Gumrak
- Gorodische=GorodisHche
- Kuporosnoya=KuporosnoyE
- Sadvaya=SadOvaya
- Volga Isle=Golodny Island
- and last but certainly not least (how the heck did that train wreck happen?) Krasny Pkiybar=Krasny Oktyabr.

There is no need to be rude (with reference to the train wreck), so i may have got it wrong. All you need to do is point that out and give the correct name. Yes, there are certain discrepancies, some of which i will leave alone, but thank-you for
Golodny Island and Krasny Oktyabr. These will be changed.

Anyone involved in this subject can and should know that Krasny Oktyabr means Red October (the month being clearly recognizable in Russian for any non-Russian speaker), being the Bolshevik October Revolution of 1917. Turning this essential part of Soviet history into 'Pkiybar' is nothing short of a train wreck (no rudeness intended), and a total mystery to me.

As for the 'discrepancies' that you decide to leave alone: ununderstandable, but up to you. See my previous post.

With these last remarks I wish you the best of luck in finishing this mandatory battle map for CC!

[cairnswk]

I'm not interested in visiting this site more than, say, once a year, to see what's going on (the generally hostile response I receive doesn't motivate me to step up the frequency)...

And that is the issue I guess, if you're not interested in giving your thoughts more than once a year, then i cannot take you seriously.

Anyone involved in this subject can and should know that Krasny Oktyabr means Red October (the month being clearly recognizable in Russian for any non-Russian speaker), being the Bolshevik October Revolution of 1917.

Not so. I don't expect anyone to know Russian or have knowledge of Red October except those who have studied the subject.
And so, it has been picked up, if it is correct, and for that, have grace enough to accept that your thoughts are on the map.

...
I'm not convinced by your reference link. Rokossovsky led the Don Front, coming in from the north. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Rokossovsky#World_War_II and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad (maps). I would have Chuikov in place of Rokossovsky, and call the island territories after its geographic name, Denezhny. I would make Yeryomenko the GHQ (Stalingrad Front), and Chuikov the 62nd Army's HQ.

And I'm not convinced by your wikipedia references...anyone can log into wikipedia and edit stuff.
As I said, if you're not interested in visiting more than once a year, then you have missed the opportunity to debate your viewpoint on this. I would like the map to stay as is.
And according to your wiki reference map, (the way i read it) Rokossovski and Yeremenko are 5 star Generals, Chulkov was only a 4 star general therefore they get the HQs.

2. Mannstein was never in the city. He was sent to relieve Paulus, but never got there. The rest is history.

Correct according to http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen8.htm
Therefore i have left Paulus near the Pitomnik Airfield, and placed Rodenburg in the other HQ as per this reference (http://users.telenet.be/stalingrad/Divi ... ficers.htm)

Check out this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad_German_Order_of_Battle. The position of your Rodenberg GHQ (skip the G) is taken by divisions in the LI Armeekorps commanded by General der Artillerie Walther von Seydlitz-Kurzbach (by far the biggest army corps in the 6th Army, encompassing 9 divisions out of a total of 22). Rodenburg's 76th Division was in the western end of the Stalingrad pocket, nowhere near where you put him (in fact not even on the map).

Yes, look, we could debate these subjects all day from whatever reference.
Given that this battle took place over several months and there was various movements of troops and territory being won and lost, it is impossble to put all that into a map for CC.
Therefore i beleive i have a decent (not totally acurate) representation for this battle that will allow players to play Germans against Russians, and that some of the major names are in the battle. At the end of the day, that is all most players want.
For your fine knowledge, perhaps you should consider a thesis on the subject at uni level.

[jasnostj]

I don't ask for a debate, just for a few changes/corrections of territory names, for the sake of historical and geographical accuracy. But it seems your ego/pride is more important.
As for my fine knowledge (thanks for the compliment): I am an MSc. in biology, not an MA in (military) history. I have my own WWII pet project at http://www.sitzkrieg.hyves.nl, if you are interested.

[cairnswk]

... But it seems your ego/pride is more important...

LOL, pot calling the kettle black.
Ego/pride has nothing to do with it my mapmaking.
What does matter is timely input, and you've had plenty of time to get this information into the map, but your time doesn't allow a visit of more than once a year...

[jasnostj]

You and other mapmakers repeatedly turn it around to make it look like it is about ME, and what I want. But it is not MY map, I don't want anything, I will not be the one looking like a fool (to people with knowledge of the subject, or the 278 million people who speak Russian). I don't even play here anymore. I am just trying to be helpful. Offer knowledge, insight, sources that may be new and useful to you. You can't know everything after all. But if you don't want my advice, because I am not a regular here or for whatever reason, fine by me. See for yourself. It is your project.
And that's really the last I will say about it.

[cairnswk]

You and other mapmakers repeatedly turn it around to make it look like it is about ME, and what I want. But it is not MY map, I don't want anything, I will not be the one looking like a fool (to people with knowledge of the subject, or the 278 million people who speak Russian). I don't even play here anymore. I am just trying to be helpful. Offer knowledge, insight, sources that may be new and useful to you. You can't know everything after all. But if you don't want my advice, because I am not a regular here or for whatever reason, fine by me. See for yourself. It is your project.
And that's really the last I will say about it.

That's good, because as i said this is only a map for CC which is somewhat of a representation to give players the opportunity to play this game for this scenario.
As for the 278 million people who speak russian, i doubt if many of them will ever see this site, and they were certainly not there at the Battle. Now if someone from the battle wants to provide me with evidence, then i would believe them, but i cannot necessarilty beleive most of your wikipedia references. For instance you didn't even offer to translate Chuilkov's Memoirs. I at least took the trouble to use Google Translator (yes the only tool available to me albeit a not very good one) to translate most of his memoirs which are available on the internet, and read them.
And if you don't want it, then why are you putting up such discussion about this.
I don't know everything, but then neither do you, so stop making out you do.
You've offered the information, and i have chosen to take some of it. For that i thank you.
My choice to include some of this information, your choice not to play here anymore.

[natty dread]

Cairns has a point here. It's ultimately the mapmaker's choice how he wants to make his map. There's no need to get offended if the mapmaker doesn't accept your every suggestion. The ultimate test of the map is, will people play it. If they do and like it, then the map is a success.

[cairnswk]

Version 31 below.

Click image to enlarge.

[jasnostj]

Perhaps he mistook persianempire's response for one from you, and wondered why it didn't respond to all his comments.

That is actually true. With that I withdraw my complaint.

[cairnswk]

Whilst i don't want to use all the names given by jasnostj, he has prompted me to make some other alterations.

1. Snipers: added russian names including Zaitsev
2. 2nd generals and units renamed as to who were involved in the battle...ref from wikipedia as i couldn't find any other at this short stint of research.

saraith, sorry about renaming at this stage, but it may make some people happier.

VErsion 33.

[cairnswk]

This is the Visicheck for V33



and this will be posted on the front page,...where snipers can bombard

[cairnswk]

For a second I was gonna be miffed at 44 for bumping that old map ideas thread about Stalingrad and cruelly getting my hopes up, and lo and behold I see a new thread with the beginnings of a map. I am a happy panda right this particular second.

I hope that Inca is still a happy panda now that this is nearing completion...

[persianempire]

first id like to say this map is looking great , i love the idea of naming the snipers as real soldiers. excellent work on the names jasnostj an cairns. that 1 version of the map that has sniper arrows to the target spot, im pretty sure thats just for this thread or whatever but i think you should keep them , make them thinner and see-through. not only would it be easier for first timers who played but also players who are colorblind. im dissapointed you took zhukov out , he WAS ther regardless of wat any internet “source” tells you. becuz after german attacks failed on leningrad and moscow germans held a line and diverted all extra troops to caucus oil fields and stalingrad. after zhukov broke week parts of german line , they encircled the 6th army , and you know what happened after , albeit zhukov was only in the city a short time , mayb less than a week even , he was still ther.

[persianempire]

also , i only suggested manstein becuz i was thinking the hqs wer for fieldmarshalls only. if you decided to go with 2nd in command under paulus, then that is not rodenburg , he was the generalmajor of the 76th infantry division . parts of the 4th panzer army were in the city, herman hoth was commander but never made it inside so whichever of his generals was inside city would be next inline , being as after paulus is his adutant, and he didnt die so that is void. also i should have mentioned this earlier but the volga river itself was the only way for soviets to ferry troops to the west bank , which the germans could never take, but i guess there wouldnt be any room to even put ferrys on the water, then ud hafto set up artillery to attak them as well

[saraith]

Whilst i don't want to use all the names given by jasnostj, he has prompted me to make some other alterations.

1. Snipers: added russian names including Zaitsev
2. 2nd generals and units renamed as to who were involved in the battle...ref from wikipedia as i couldn't find any other at this short stint of research.

saraith, sorry about renaming at this stage, but it may make some people happier.

No worries, boss...

Two words... Find, Relpace

Incidentally, I'll likely have draft 2 completed by this time tomorrow.

[jasnostj]

also , i only suggested manstein becuz i was thinking the hqs wer for fieldmarshalls only. if you decided to go with 2nd in command under paulus, then that is not rodenburg , he was the generalmajor of the 76th infantry division . parts of the 4th panzer army were in the city, herman hoth was commander but never made it inside so whichever of his generals was inside city would be next inline , being as after paulus is his adutant, and he didnt die so that is void. also i should have mentioned this earlier but the volga river itself was the only way for soviets to ferry troops to the west bank , which the germans could never take, but i guess there wouldnt be any room to even put ferrys on the water, then ud hafto set up artillery to attak them as well

Thanks Persianempire for the compliment. According to my Wikipedia sources (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Fourth_Panzer_Army), only the 24th Panzer Division of the 4th Panzer Army was encircled and destroyed, although that doesn't ofcourse mean that other divisions were never inside the city. As said before, the obvious choice for the second HQ would IMO be General Von Seydlitz-Kurzbach, as he was commanding almost half of the 6th Army's divisions. Even the location on the map is correct, as his divisions were the ones doing the frontal assaults on the city, as far as I can determine. Interestingly, Seydlitz also was one of the strongest backers of a breakout of the encirclement (which he had successfully done in Demyansk), and one the leaders of Soviet-backed anti-Nazi organisations as a POW.


My Wikipedia sources don't claim that "Zhukov was never in the city", as I boldly stated. In fact, they do mention a short visit to "the front". But to me that is something else than actually commanding the fighting in the streets. It is quite simple: The Stalingrad Front (defending the city and its surroundings) was commanded by Yeryomenko from inside the city. The Stalingrad Front's most important armies were the 62nd (commanded by Chuikov) and the 64th. Being a local battle (the map covers a very limited area some 15 kilometers wide), it seems to me the most logical thing to do is have the local commanders on the map. Rokossovsky (as commander of the Don Front) only came in later, as the encirclement was being hammered out, and from a different direction (the north: wouldn't be much of an enCIRCLEment if he would also approach from the east). Zhukov was commanding the overall Stalingrad area.

It's always wise to be cautious about internet references. Other sources than Wikipedia are often clearly authored by a single amateur historian, while at Wikipedia there is at least room for debate and correction (and vandalism, but that's usually clearly recognisable as such and swiftly undone) by several people, amateurs and professionals alike. Plus Wikipedia is a much more well-structured, accessable and concise source of information (all in one place) than anything else on the internet I know, which is handy for an amateur like me. I have learned a lot in recent days. For that I thank you all.

[cairnswk]

VErsion 33.