Nordic Countries [Quenched]

[White Moose]

Hi, since i was asked to comment on this. Then i'll do it

I hope you are aware that you've missed lots of provinces, in sweden and that Lappland isn't divided into south and north. So i'm hoping you just did that you improve the gameplay.

I think it looks like a good map. I think some of the bonuses requier too many territories for the bonus given for them. The South Finland and South Norway is 10 territories large (counting the capital), yet still you only get a +4 from it. Denmark is 7 territories and gives only +2... Those numbers seen very wierd.

The name.. I think it sounds rather wierd. I would change it to "Scandinavia". Yes, normally only Sweden, Norway and Denmark is included in that name. But it's grown to include Finland and Iceland aswell.

I think the graphics looks nice. It gives a cold feeling to the countries, which is what people in USA think we have it here.
I guess it's just a problem for those who knows what sweden really looks like.. but i don't like that for example Skåne is way too big. That large part going up on the west side isn't part of Skåne. Since it's accually another province called Halland which is supposed to be there.

I also noticed you don't have "treriksrörset" included. It's the spot up north where Sweden, Norway and Finland all border at the same spot. But again, this and the recently above mentioned problems is probably for the best to improve the gameplay of the map.

Good luck with the future of the map, i'm looking forward to playing it.

[Lufsen75]

I think it looks fine. I just want it to come soon.

[ArgoW]

i gotta say this fails no närke in it lol..... na good job looks nice

[natty dread]

Wow, thanks for all the comments. Makes me feel all warm & fuzzy inside.

First of all... T.K, sorry, I forgot to post the updated images last night, I had such a busy time with the newsletter...

So here they are:

Click image to enlarge.

Then, I'd like to respond to some of the comments.

As a dane I did, however, stumpled that you call regions Nordjylland, Midtjylland and then SYDDANMARK, not Sønderjylland - as we call it. We do, however, have a region called SydDanmark, but that covers all Sønderjylland og Fyn into same region (politically).

Well, if you feel Sønderjylland would be a more accurate name, I have no problem with changing it. It will also need an XML update though... so before I do this, I'd like to ask all you Danes, do you all agree on the name change?

The South Finland and South Norway is 10 territories large (counting the capital), yet still you only get a +4 from it. Denmark is 7 territories and gives only +2... Those numbers seen very wierd.

Well, when considering bonus values, you have to also consider the number of borders you need to defend to hold that bonus. And the number of territories that can attack the bonus area, and the number of adjacent bonus areas... I can assure you the bonuses have been thought out very thoroughly. If you wish, take a peek at the bonus value data on the first post...

For a more specific answer, South Finland gets +4 because you can hold it by only defending 2 territories. Denmark also has 2 borders, but it has less territories and it can be expanded to include the Faroe islands, to make the bonus +3.

The name.. I think it sounds rather wierd. I would change it to "Scandinavia". Yes, normally only Sweden, Norway and Denmark is included in that name. But it's grown to include Finland and Iceland aswell.

I disagree. Scandinavia means the Scandinavian peninsula, which can be understood to mean Sweden, Norway and perhaps Denmark, and a part of Finland, but Iceland most definitely is not a part of it. Nor are Faroe and Svalbard...

Nordic Countries is the english translation of the term Norden / Pohjoismaat / Norðurlöndin which is an official definition and includes the 5 countries featured in the map (and their territories). The 5 Nordic Countries have had close relations long before EU or Schengen treaties. You have not needed a passport for travel inside the Nordic Countries in years, even before EU... So, I just feel Nordic Countries is the most accurate definition of the area, also I would like the term to become more recognized outside the area, therefore I'm sticking with it.

I hope you are aware that you've missed lots of provinces, in sweden and that Lappland isn't divided into south and north. So i'm hoping you just did that you improve the gameplay.

Yes, it is for gameplay reasons, and mostly because we have size restrictions on maps... I can't just fit all the smaller regions in while maintaining legibility. I've had to sacrifice accuracy at some places for better gameplay and/or legibility. However I feel the accuracy is as good as can be expected from a CC map of 5 different countries...

I think it looks fine. I just want it to come soon.

Thank you. Also thanks to White Moose and Mightor for their constructive and well thought-out feedback.

i gotta say this fails no närke in it lol..... na good job looks nice

Hah, thanks... if you can't find your hometown in the map (too bad for you for not living in a capital) I hope you'll at least find your home province... if you can't find your home province, I hope you'll at least find your home country... If you can't find your home country, then you're probably drunk...

[mpxy]

I really like the idea, but just wondered why you have selected those "cold" colors. Using better ones, for instance flag colors of the countries would make the map much more attractive. Well, just an idea..

[natty dread]

Ugh, again with the flag colours idea. No thanks, I tried it and it looked absolutely horrible. The current colour scheme is cold because most people outside Nordics perceive the Nordic Countries as cold. Therefore, one has to take the stereotypies and preconceptions and use them to his advantage. Also, I like cold colours, they are much more pleasing to the eye than bright reds and yellows...

Also, I have to apologize to danes now... I know I said I'd change Syddanmark if you want it, but I just realized there's no way I can fit Sönderjylland in there... so I'm sorry, it has to stay this way.

Unless you have an alternative to Syddanmark which can fit into the same space, I'm going to keep it...

[Leek777]

well, it looks fine by me. not much else I can say, except good job, and keep the good work upp.

[natty dread]

Thanks Leek. I have fond memories of Estonia btw... you being from there, you might also want to check out the Baltic States map by captainwalrus.


edit: I tried to fit Sonderjylland but it's just impossible on the small version. I hope keeping the territory as Syddanmark will not bother you Danes too much, sorry.


So, I'm thinking I could very well go into beta with this latest version. I hope the mods also agree... most seem to be very satisfied with the map as it is now.

Latest files:
large image: http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/381/ ... pev56c.png
small image: http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2748 ... smalln.png
XML: http://h1.ripway.com/ndread/nordic_xml_6.xml

[natty dread]

Idea: I could name it "Schleswig"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleswig

(not being serious though... even though the name would be apt, it's a historical name and thus would not fit very well in a modern map...)

[erkern]

Read through all comments, and taking into account the balance between geography, history and gameplay considerations, I have to agree with many here:
Awesome job. Looking forward to playing it!

[MrBenn]

I had a look at the developments of this Nordic map, and it´s nice to see the role Iceland is playing. I had only a look on Iceland: the flag is fine, but I personally think the glacier in Iceland is far too huge and the south of Iceland should be connected to the east, as is in the real world. That´s my personal view. I can' t see the borderline beetween Reykjavík and Vesturland too clearly, and of course I have to comment on the use of special Iclandic symbols, as Reykjavík not Reykjavik, Vestfirðir not Vestfirdir, Norðurland not Nordurland, Suðurland not Sudurland, Vesturland and Austurland is ok, but perhaps Austfirðir (Austfirdir)(plural) as in Vestfirðir is more correct spelling, as we don´t commonly talk about Austurland in Iceland. All the same this map is a huge task and it will be received warmly among those Icelanders who have connected to CC. Can´t wait for it to be added to the maps on CC. Good work and fine graphic.
Congatulations.
Ólafsson

[Olafsson]

By the way please don´t call it Scandinavian map.

[natty dread]

Well, first of all thanks for the feedback erkern & Olafsson.

Secondly, have no fear, I have no intention of changing the name of the map.

As for connecting south of iceland to east, I'm afraid I'll have to nix that... the gameplay works best this way. There are also other places in the map where impassables are added or connections are created for gameplay reasons, and I'm sure you realize one can't strive for perfect geographical accuracy on a map meant for playing. I've done the best I can to maintain as much accuracy as possible, but some places you just have to compromise.

If the beta period will reveal some gameplay reasons to change some connections, I will be happy to fix them, but at this point... meh, I hope you understand.

As for the ð letters, I purposefully translittered them to d:s. This is mainly for legibility reasons, since the territory names are on pretty small text on the small map. However, I'm not opposed to correcting the spelling on the XML, so that at least the names that appear in game log will be correct.

Austurland... it is actually the official name of the region AFAIK. So is there any significant reason to change it? I'm using official names of the other regions as well... If I have to start changing territory names based on what they are called by the people living there, well... you can see that will be an endless road

There is no borderline between Reykjavik and Vesturland. Reykjavik is inside Vesturland so it connects to Vesturland, and to Faroe by sea connection. As the legend indicates, capitals connect to territories under them.

All in all, thanks for your comments.

MrBenn... if I change only the territory names in the XML, do I need to submit it for a new check?

[natty dread]

XML with the ð symbols on icelandic territories: http://h1.ripway.com/ndread/nordic_xml_7.xml

Now that I think of it I guess I could try editing the letters on the images as well... I just hope they don't turn out as pixel-porridge.

edited images. version number 56ð
large:

Click image to enlarge.

small:



edit. ah... as for the accent on the ì on Reykjavìk... I think the difference here is so minor that it would most likely be unnoticeable. i and ì look so similar, especially on italic font...there's not much point in changing it, so I'm leaving it at that.

As for Syddanmark, I have decided to keep it as it is. Sonderjylland would be more accurate, but it won't fit in the small version. Schleswig / Slesvig would not be accurate either, as only it's north half is in Denmark... also it probably hasn't been use in a century or two.

So... do I need a new XML check? The only thing that's changed are 3 territory names where d -> ð. I tested it myself with map tools and found no errors.

[Mightor]

Nice to read all the comments - players are very involved in this project. It realy is a great job to make a map - and for SydDanmark or Sønderjylland, that was just a detail with no influence on the game, mate - so bother no more about it, OK ... :-)

As for boni compared to difficulty in holding the areas it must be played before we really can see the balance, but I agree that Norway maybe should have 1 or 2 extra points in bonus as it is - as stated by other players - a large area to hold with many borders.

But let us play the map and ajust after some finished games.

I am in for it, mates - bring it on to us !!! ... :-)

Playful regards

Mightor

[natty dread]

I agree that Norway maybe should have 1 or 2 extra points in bonus as it is

It already does - If you hold Svalbard along with all Norway you get an extra +2 troops, as stated in the map.

Btw... I'm kinda surprised no one has commented the obvious mislocations of Faroe & Svalbard - I originally had them in insets to represent that they are not in their actual location (or scale) but was asked to remove the insets... But hey, if it doesn't bother people, I'm glad I'm getting away with it

And yes, let us all hope we get the map soon into beta testing. After all, that's the final test of a map's worth.

[erkern]

I did notice the mislocation of Svalbard and Faroe Islands, but realized that an accurate map would be HUGE so I took for granted they were placed where they are for that reason. No worries, mate.
I don't concider CC a lesson in Geography.

Let's have a go...

[natty dread]

One more final tweak, adjusted the ocean colour slightly. It was a bit too caramel to my taste...

With this I'm confident in upping the version number to 57.

v57 large

Click image to enlarge.

v57 small


and latest XML is still this, http://h1.ripway.com/ndread/nordic_xml_7.xml

[RjBeals]

its still soft... you know.. blurry.

What is blurry? The ocean, the land area? The ocean needs to be a bit blurry... otherwise the texture is too "strong", I hear... As for the land area, I got complaints of pixelation so I softened the outline slightly. Or do you mean the grunge texture of the land area?

I think just overall blurry. The borders look a bit blurred. The land texture looks blurred also, and with the very sharp text on top of that, it makes it look even more blurred. I'm not sure if at this point there's much you can do - but thought I would mock something up real quick to give a comparison.

[natty dread]

I have to say, Rj... while I always appreciate your input, at this point I don't think I'm going to do anything to the land area anymore. I already switched the texture into a sharper one than what it was before. The soft borders are a stylistic thing, besides this way they are easier to distinguish from the thick black borders that separate the bonus areas.

Also I don't think it's a bad thing that the text is sharper than the background. It makes the text stand out better, improving legibility.

[mibi]

I have to say, Rj... while I always appreciate your input, at this point I don't think I'm going to do anything to the land area anymore. I already switched the texture into a sharper one than what it was before. The soft borders are a stylistic thing, besides this way they are easier to distinguish from the thick black borders that separate the bonus areas.

Also I don't think it's a bad thing that the text is sharper than the background. It makes the text stand out better, improving legibility.

Thats a cop-out and excuse for not wanting to fix the problem. Trust me, I've been there. Go back and redo the land so it doesn't look like someone smeared vasoline all over it and this map might actially look 'professional'.

[natty dread]

It's not about "not wanting to fix a problem". I don't see a problem. I already made the land area sharper from what it was before, and I thought you'd be happy about it...

Frankly, you and Rj are so far the only ones who are bothered by the land texture. Perhaps the two of you need to wipe the dust off your monitor?

[Evil DIMwit]

I have to say, Rj... while I always appreciate your input, at this point I don't think I'm going to do anything to the land area anymore. I already switched the texture into a sharper one than what it was before. The soft borders are a stylistic thing, besides this way they are easier to distinguish from the thick black borders that separate the bonus areas.

Also I don't think it's a bad thing that the text is sharper than the background. It makes the text stand out better, improving legibility.

Thats a cop-out and excuse for not wanting to fix the problem. Trust me, I've been there. Go back and redo the land so it doesn't look like someone smeared vasoline all over it and this map might actially look 'professional'.

Normally at this stage I'd be reluctant towards a change of this scale, but in this case I have to agree. The softness is just not working.

Regarding the name -- isn't this just the most adorable Venn diagram that I found on Wikipedia?

Click image to enlarge.

(Yeah, "Nordic Countries" is right on.)

[RjBeals]

It's more the borders for me - but fair enough. You're map, you've worked on it long enough. Us 2 are probably more critical of graphics than most people.

[natty dread]

You're right Beals, I have worked on this map a long time, so forgive me for being skittish about it... I know though there are maps that have been worked on even longer, but I'm not sure if there's any other map in CC history that has gone through 57 different versions before quenching

Anyway, I just want to say, I really do respect you & mibi's opinions, I consider you experts on the subject of mapmaking. Even when I don't agree with you I do my best to address the issues you point out in some way...

Well anyway, I'll see if I can adjust the texture by opacity & HSV settings, but if that doesn't work then I'm just going to pull the "meh" card.