New Peloponnesian War - New Poll (Updated 1.1.2, 1.2.1)

[Mad-elph]

I am wanting to take a bit of a poll and see if anyone thinks I should revamp the Peloponnesian War map. I am a recent grad in Classics and find so many problems with the map from a historical point of view that I find it needs changing.
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Okay this is my first shot just to give an idea of how this will play. A bit has changed, but the addition of the water gives it more depth. I know it looks bad, I just wanted to share the idea phase.

IF YOU COULD PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHY YOU ARE VOTING "DON"T MAKE A MAP" I'D APPRECIATE IT SO I CAN DETERMINE WHY I AM GOING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION. I WOULD LIKE TO RESPOND TO CRITICISMS.

There are 80 places
8 places of origin (RED) which will autodeploy 2
Black places give bonus of 1
Travel can only be done via port (usually a red or black place)
I added neutrals at increased numbers to centralized places, this will force the correct growth, Athens becomes a Sea power, Thebes grows northward, and Corinth and Sparta power struggle for the Peloponnese

Draft option
ver. 1.1.2 - I added some labels as requested. I did it in Photobucket so it was a quick job, didn't finish but wanted to show you where things were. I will have to resize them.


Alternative option
ver. 1.2.1
This one has 3 starting point surrounding places. These are basically on the idea that your land surrounding your citystate is necessary for your survival they give a plus 1 bonus for 2 and a plus 2 for holding all three. Your city state still gives a plus 2 auto deploy bonus each turn. As you can see I tried to condense the map's focus to two regions, Peloponnese and the north, and cut out the middle. This will make things a bit more direct and more even.
Also the "+4 Neutral everyturn" is to mean that you cannot hold this space, it returns to 4 neutrals every turn as any army you march across rocky northern Greece will be depleted. What do you think?


Here is another possible art direction I am thinking of going





Let me know what you think

[porkenbeans]

Maybe you could state just what the historical inaccuracies are ?

[Mad-elph]

Well I guess I should start somewhere in describing what I want to do then. I msg'd qwert a couple months ago identifying my issues with the map and he replied that he abandoned the foundry for various reasons. However he never held issue with my sentiment. He seemed to provide me with a good account of why he made it the way he did, with regard to limitations. Now I've studied Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian War for my final year seminar class and understand the issues of the war well. And feel that the map does not reflect them quite right. I want my map to give a bit of realism to players. I agree with a few basic ideas. It has to be multiplayer strong, ie not designed for two huge forces (ie. the Athenian and Peloponnesian Leagues). But I would like to limit that to 6 players. Can we limit maps to a max of 4,5, or 6 or do they all need to be 8 player?

What I said to him then was "I do not take too much offense to your inclusion for balancing, its more that certain things didn't exist then (eg. Rome, Pontus). I'd much rather the map be restricted in size. I have a image in my head that it should be limited to and I'd love to share that with you, or even help create another. ... I wold ask your permission to take it as a starting point, but I kinda envision a different idea than what was employed.

I sincerely enjoy your map and think it is well done, but I found it only inaccurate in its scope and details. As a map for Ancient Greece this is a great map, but for the Peloponnesian War I think it is lacking. Sorry"

qwert told me then " First-number of territories-in mine research i find that number of participiant in Peloponesian war whas close to 200 State cities(Athenian allies and Sparta Allies)And that i need to disband very large number of state cities.
Now this is Conquer Club,and if you look close,then you will find that all maps in CC is not 100% acurate... Creating balanced map,and that everybody start equal,this what i need to do-add Illirian-pontys-persians-Romans"

Now what I am seeing is identifying 6 starting points of armies, Athens, Sparta, Corinth, Macedonia, Thebes, Thrace, (and Aoelia and Illyria if I need to do 8 as they factor little in the real war). Furthermore. I'd like to have it set up so you start in your capital. and you have 3 surrounding territories that give you bonuses of +2 for all 3 and +1 for only 2. Then also have a bonus of +1 for holding one of the main sticking points of the war ie, Corcyra, Plataea, Potidea, Mytilene, Pylos, Delos, Megara, Melos, Euboea, Mantinea, Cyzicus. I have debated whether the pairing of one power to each of these would give it a bonus if it had a particular connection in history and that is something I am working on defining.
But for this to be balanced it must include water travel... this is the point that is most important and also the most fuzzy for me. How should it be done? Ports of towns to towns, or a few water places throughout, so say your town touches water and that touches 2-3 neutral waters to allow for concentration and the ability to move around an enemy to lessen blockades. Should the water passage move two - three wide through the whole Mediterranean.

Anyways as you can see I've thought about this a lot. I've made a few basic sketches and pulled maps. Now the hard part, your suggestions and me actually drawing it up. I am currently unemployed so I can go at it hard for a bit, but who knows how far I can get in that time.

[Mad-elph]

Sorry I was writing that so I didn't respond to your question directly. Rome did not exist, especially as a force in this war. Persia was down and out and had no real impact on the war, Pontus wasn't a force as he was not born yet.

But most importantly, there is no reason to include Athens or Sparta in most of the games as the design of the map makes them a waste to take unless you are in a long stale mate to use the castle capture and defeat. I want it to be warfare that includes these powers. on the current map the two main super powers of the war are add ons and rarely if ever used. Seems silly, as its like having a cold war map without the USA and Russia. but having Afghanistan and vietnam etc....

[natty dread]

I like the current map. It plays well.

[Master Fenrir]

I don't see a poll option, but my vote would be "no." In my experience on this map, the best and most fun games are 8 man terminator games and quad games. Both require 8 starting positions.

[captainwalrus]

While I don't want to speak for qwert, if I remember correctly from back when it was first an idea his intention was really to make a more accurate ancient Greece map, yet as a revamp was not allowed, he loosely based it on the Peloponnesian war.
It is one of the best maps on CC, and a revamp would be bad.

[Mad-elph]

I agree fully that it plays well as I've played it many times. I am just wondering whether you think it should more accurately reflect the correct history. I am wiling to make a new map. Would anyone be willing to play a new map, I guess, is more the question.

There can be a place for both maps, as some like the old one. But I really think its a Greek nations map and has nothing to reflect real war.

I posted months ago about the map

"

I've just started on this map having not noticed it addition until last week. I really enjoy it for what it is, but I do have issues with the design in context of history. I have not read all 36 pages on this so maybe its been already responded to. I read the first 3 and the last 3. Anyway, I am a Classics and Political Science student and my senior seminar is on the Peloponnesian War, the work of Thucydides. I think this map's design is misguided for the Peloponnesian War. Its a great map but does not really capture the battles or real territory of dispute in the Pelo war. The fact that noone starts in the Peloponnese is a huge red haring, and going there does nothing for you really. I am guessing that you just took the Ancient Greece or Alexander map and fused them.

I would love to contribute to an accurate depiction, and don't want to dismay the designer, but I think its faulty in that it put more emphasis on fights in Asia Minor and Thrace instead of Hellas and some cycladic islands. Furthermore names such as Pontus, Romans, Persians are wrong for the era. In 431 Rome had not united Italy. Persia was in dismay and did little for either side in the war. Pontus was a Persian settlement that didn't do anything during the war. Instead of Rome you should have Sicily which is a big part of Athens War, as they wanted the Sicilian wheat and to dominate Syracuse, much to their failure.
Emphasis should be put to a lower level... It should be on empires and their vassal states, Athens should get a bonus if it holds Pylos, or Potidea etc. Sparta if it takes Delos or controls Attica or the Argives.

The map should exclude Asia for the most part. Rhodes, Crete, Halicarnasus (where most of my playing of the map have found to be the focal point) have minor involvement, acting only as tributaries to Athens in the later part of the War. Halicarnasus is from Alexander's exploits. As far East as the map should go is the inclusion of Lesbos as that is really as far as this war is concerned Eastward. To the north you can cut some too. I know this plays down the maneuvering there but its all wrong. There is a lot in the war over the Chalcidian lands.
If scaled right you could have more regions in the Peloponnese, a few in Chalcidia etc... the emphasis should be on cities here as that is how they battled. Laying siege to cities and commanding the surrounding area. When you wanted to attack someone you'd land an army, ravage the land so they had no food stuffs and if they came out of their fortress you'd battle them, if not you'd leave to fight another summer.

I'd love to help make an appropriate map... If you want me to I can try, but I can't do too much until Dec, when I finish my degree.

and got some harsh responses. Again I like the map.
I just want to make another to reflect history.

[Mad-elph]

While I don't want to speak for qwert, if I remember correctly from back when it was first an idea his intention was really to make a more accurate ancient Greece map, yet as a revamp was not allowed, he loosely based it on the Peloponnesian war.
It is one of the best maps on CC, and a revamp would be bad.

Yes I've found that information today. Agreed. No revamp to replace, but another map to accompany it.

[Mad-elph]

I don't see a poll option, but my vote would be "no." In my experience on this map, the best and most fun games are 8 man terminator games and quad games. Both require 8 starting positions.

I guess I have not played it enough to agree with you. I have tended to play it as 4 people games. I am not much a fan of team games so I have avoided that (must be because of my history with RISK (TM)) style of play. But I will have a mind towards the team play element in my project.

[Mad-elph]

I wold like to request this be moved to Map Foundry. As I mis-posted it.

[RedBaron0]

[moved]

[MrBenn]

Map revamps are best handled with kid gloves...

[AndrewB]

It does not sounds like a revamp, but as a completely different map with a completely different gameplay...

[Mad-elph]

Bump for new eyes and a response

[Blitzaholic]

I would strongly recommend you leave pelo war map as it is currently and if you want to make another one, great, but, leave this one as is. Pelo is great map for singles 8 players, doubles 8 players, terminator, and quads.


voted: New map to live beside old Pelo Map

[nippersean]

Just sounds like a silly idea to me - the map is fine and popular.
The Boetians or Athenians could be reduced to 4 neutral imo to reduce strength of the Persians but I don't understand why you would consider this project to be useful.

[Mad-elph]

Just sounds like a silly idea to me - the map is fine and popular.
The Boetians or Athenians could be reduced to 4 neutral imo to reduce strength of the Persians but I don't understand why you would consider this project to be useful.

Again it is all about reflecting correct history. The Black places are all places of interest to history. I needed to reshape the spawn places as they are just odd. I know they were done to balance things, but it was jsut all off using things that didn't have anything to do with the war, again I suggest, who could you have a Cold war map without USA or Russia or a WW2 map without Allies and Germany. When it comes back to it I wanted there to be battles in the Peloponnese, as the current map directs all war away from the places of interest.

[natty dread]

Again it is all about reflecting correct history.

Correct history has little to do with CC maps...

[yobo]

Maybe you could state just what the historical inaccuracies are ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesian_War

[Mad-elph]

I was asked a very important question - how is this different from Ancient Greece?
Well its larger (80 vs. 41) territories. this means it will be better for 8 player and quad games. Furthermore the VAST majority of Ancient Greece games last under 15 turns. I hope to change that and lengthen the games.

It needs to be dressed up a bit, but it is designed to flow, you have 2 places to protect and grow all the time.

Does it seem too complex, or unnecessarily large? I think it would allow for different style play.

[cricket19]

really enjoy the old map, but find the introduction of more "sea" warefare adds a better balance to the entire area. would be interested to try this new map for sure, but would hate to see the old one eliminated until new one was tested out. thanks

[AndyDufresne]

Creating a new map, uniquely oriented, either via gameplay, locale, setting/history, etc---is probably the best route.


--Andy

[Industrial Helix]

I really am having a hard time making heads or tails of this map without territory labels and what have you.

I think the big thing that this map needs to address is how the deployment is going to go. Ancient Greece is all random, Peloponnesian War is starting positions only... To be honest, I think something along the lines of The Third Crusade style deployment would work out great. 6 on Athens, 6 on Sparta and 6 other places... the rest open to random.

[Mad-elph]

I really am having a hard time making heads or tails of this map without territory labels and what have you.

I think the big thing that this map needs to address is how the deployment is going to go. Ancient Greece is all random, Peloponnesian War is starting positions only... To be honest, I think something along the lines of The Third Crusade style deployment would work out great. 6 on Athens, 6 on Sparta and 6 other places... the rest open to random.

I've added most of the labels for you. I will resize them later, it was a quick job in photobucket. As for the last part. I am afraid of giving the autodeploy's as too big, as the first person who plays might just run on of the others before they can go. I will try to work out an alternative. I did not quite understand what you meant but I think I did. Let me know if I misunderstood.