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Re: RĆ©volution de Foundry

Postby porkenbeans on Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:08 pm

Thank you ender,
I am so glad that someone has finally understood what I have been driving at. I am NOT trying to say that the recent quenches are bad, just that the process is not allowing for a great deal of variety.

And what you said about outsiders and insiders, and how it will always be that way. This too is just the thing that I was trying to get across. Most people are here to play the game, not read a pile of text about maps, and how they are made.

They are eager however, to test drive the latest model. We should take advantage of this fact, and use these anxious test drivers, in a way that allows for all those maps that may not be the most popular among veteran Foundry members, get their chance to prove, that there is after all, an ample amount of fans, to warrant its quench. My point is, we in the Foundry should not try as much to guess what people will like, when we can just as easily ask them. ;)
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby MrBenn on Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:33 pm

The problem that you're alluding to stems from a misunderstanding of Beta Maps. The Beta phase is not, and never has been intended to "test drive" new maps: it is the final failsafe to ensure that there are no unobserved flaws before an approved map hits the CC public.

Lack has always been opposed to a testing area for new maps and no-points games - the Beta phase we have now only came about as a direct consequence of the unforeseen (and some would argue critical) flaw with Das Schloss. Other maps have since benefitted from the Beta phase as the final scooping-up area - most recently Feudal Epic.
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby SuicidalSnowman on Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:18 pm

Hello all, read all the posts up to this point, had to offer this.

I am not a very serious foundry goer, mostly because I cannot make maps. I don't have photoshop or gimp, and don't know how to use them. However, I do try to come by and take a look around, and offer support and criticism for maps that I like, or think I would like.

Some thoughts to offer:

Porkenbeans, I think you do some awesome work, especially that Romania map. You know I commented all over it. But here is what happened, somewhere in the development, you and a few other "foundry elite" started going back and forth about something I had no clue about. I got tired of opening up the thread, looking forward to updates, and finding a childish back and forth about foundry standards, same old maps, this and that, old arguments I knew nothing about.

Sure, the foundry elite (and yes, I agree 100% that they exist and are not at all welcoming to new users) may have had problems with the map, but rather than going toe to toe with them, why didn't anyone listen to the regular users who were commentating on the map as well? Same with Jamacia! A neat idea with cool graphics, but then there are comments along the line of "This isn't shit compared to the other draft we had!"

Now I am not picking on Porkenbeans specifically, I just know that I personally am a huge fan of his map drafts, so I followed them. The same thing actually happened on the Goblin Tribes map. Danyeal and Porkenbeans had it out over a "stolen draft" that I personally do believe was related to bickering by both parties from some other thread.

But the difference is Danyael, for all his bumbling, moved past that! He sort of just shut his mouth about it, and moved onto other comments about blurry lines, an unclear key, and mis-matched colors. And last I checked, the map was at least moving along.

The point is, and this is for anyone in the Foundry who cares, the Foundry is stuck in a rut that a forum revamp will not fix. From my point of view, I like maps. I think they are cool. I am in awe that you all can do such awesome work with computer drawing. It is quite amazing. I have some friends here. I see map ads in sigs. I like to think that I can have some influence in a map I might one day play.

But I HATE the CC foundry, and every time I follow a map, I say, No, this time will be different, this time it will move along constructively, it won't be a petty flame war.

But no, just like an alcoholic, absent father, it never fails to pull you in with fancy new graphics and a promise that this time, it will really change, then slaps you in the face to punish you for your stupidity in believing it could ever be different.

1) Why is it acceptable in the foundry for anyone to refer to another person's creative work as shit? Seriously, someone, answer me that? I don't care if Mibi and Porkenbeans don't get along. How is that acceptable? Between two adults, no less?

2) Why are other threads moderated to be on topic, but in the Foundry I get to hear about 20 other maps and past vendettas in each thread?

3) Why do map makers ignore helpful community comments to debate opacity brush settings and if the fact that an old map uses 49%, then this map can't use 48%?

4) Why do maps start out with fledgling support, scratching along tooth and nail, then some experienced map maker comes in and offers a laundry list of foundry to-dos, then disappears? If you are going to use your experience or knowledge to promote your ideas, then do it with some meaning. We need people to stop popping into a new map makers thread, listing ten complaints, saying "Well, from my experience with other maps", then disappearing.

5) Why does the foundry spend so much time discouraging new map makers? Why not give them the tools? Think about it, the revamp contests are cool, but really, it is the same 6 people who really have any sort of chance. Why would I even try when I know there are at least 5 people who will definitely do a better job than me?

6) Why do mapmakers always whine about maps not quenching fast enough? Oh wait, I guess just because this is CC and we already whine about Sugs and Bugs not moving fast enough, C&A not moving fast enough...




Sorry guys, I guess number 6 really answers all my questions. I guess I just always thought the Foundry was a cut above, but in reality it is just like any other place on the internet, full of bratty kids with too much time crying about shit that they do for free anyways.
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby the.killing.44 on Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:23 pm

All this off-topic shit that happens inside map threads, by whom is it started? Just answer me that.
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby natty dread on Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:44 pm

Well, I guess the moderators & admin have the attitude, that as long as the foundry "works", in the sense that it keeps churning up more maps, then anything that goes on in the foundry is all whatever to them.

Sure, it might antagonize and scare away new mapmakers, but... um... I don't know how to continue the sentence.

The snowman makes some good points, some I don't agree with... but we should all listen to him, since he speaks for the great public, by which I mean those guys who don't make maps but do comment on them. Those people are actually vital to the mapmaking process, without people to comment on map threads all our mapmaking talent would go to waste..

We need people to stop popping into a new map makers thread, listing ten complaints, saying "Well, from my experience with other maps", then disappearing.


Agree 100%.

Although, that said, sometimes those complaints can be constructive and useful. In fact most of the time they are. But it won't do any good if the new mapmaker is left with nothing to help him fix those issues.

And why are there so many great looking maps eternally stuck in the drafting room, while lots of other maps get stamped in a month with some v.5 draft? When some Big man like Andy or MrBenn comes and posts, "this map won't make it, it's not popular enough, it lacks this & that, gameplay is wrong, graphics are wrong, title is wrong" etc. everyone seems to just give up on the map, since they know that if the foundry staff doesn't like a map, it has a snowballs chance in hell making it to the main foundry (by that I mean, if the foundry staff thinks a map doesn't qualify, then other peoples' opinions and support don't really matter, because they don't get to decide). And so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy...

Well, let's just hope the foundry reorganization fixes these issues.
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby TaCktiX on Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:13 pm

Some legitimate questions, so I shall attempt to answer.

1) Why is it acceptable in the foundry for anyone to refer to another person's creative work as shit? Seriously, someone, answer me that? I don't care if Mibi and Porkenbeans don't get along. How is that acceptable? Between two adults, no less?

Because the moderation policy of the entire CC forum is hands-off to language used, as well as forbids the deletion of virtually all posts. While I would agree that being a little more proactive about inflammatory posts (removing them), the policy doesn't allow for it to be addressed, and even if it did, with all the other things the Foundry Staff need to handle, worrying about every single maybe-over-the-line post is the straw that breaks the camel's back. If you follow the "but there are some posts that are just straight wrong" line of argument, we run into the quintessential conundrum "where is the line?" And that is a whole can of worms that can be handled far better (and has been historically shown to be a good idea) of ignoring the bad post.

2) Why are other threads moderated to be on topic, but in the Foundry I get to hear about 20 other maps and past vendettas in each thread?

That is a biased viewpoint. You said yourself you follow pork's maps, and not many others. His argument/complaint/debate/whatever with the "foundry elite" has gotten to the point that any post they make, for good or ill, will offtrack the topic. I reference moderation policy as stated above that says "no deletion" for why it spirals further and further out of control. I know for a fact most of the maps I find interest in (among them Danyael's Goblin Tribes) do not get that derailment.

3) Why do map makers ignore helpful community comments to debate opacity brush settings and if the fact that an old map uses 49%, then this map can't use 48%?

I know you were playing to audacity and don't mean that literally, but with 146 and growing maps comparisons are inevitable. This is made "worse" by the fact that a lot of the people who have been around a long time have personally been around and commented on maps all the way back to at least to #77 (my personal mark, Prohibition Chicago), and I know there are ones still older. I do not think comparisons are bad. I think it raises the bar for the requirement of a map of distinct theme, gameplay, and graphics. It's a challenge to the mapmaker to make the map distinct. My own The Citadel faced comparisons of CCU-clone from practically the very first post. It ended up not playing a thing like CCU, but I had to justify that difference countless times.

Addressing the community comments angle, I say that responding is purely in the hands of the mapmaker. Me personally, I will pay attention to all comments and try to make some response or change based on them. I know of several others that do the same, and they happen to coincide with the "Foundry Elite" as well as some of the more successful starting mapmakers. That, in my opinion, truly is the difference between getting a quenched map in a decent amount of time and sitting around spinning wheels. Listening and considering every opinion regardless of source.

4) Why do maps start out with fledgling support, scratching along tooth and nail, then some experienced map maker comes in and offers a laundry list of foundry to-dos, then disappears? If you are going to use your experience or knowledge to promote your ideas, then do it with some meaning. We need people to stop popping into a new map makers thread, listing ten complaints, saying "Well, from my experience with other maps", then disappearing.

Hey, what's with the complaint against my Attacks, huh? I kid, I kid. I don't think that an experienced mapmaker coming in and suggesting a lot of ways to improve the map all at once is a bad thing. Heck, if anything the mapmaker is armed with a large list of things to consider and look at in a new light. And I don't consider them complaints either. No commenter is complaining in the "zomg you just don't get it, you suck" sense, unless they explicitly say that (different subject, see above). Even the most humble and self-critical mapmaker is going to miss things, and the more things to take a closer look at, the far higher the chance of a much better map.

5) Why does the foundry spend so much time discouraging new map makers? Why not give them the tools? Think about it, the revamp contests are cool, but really, it is the same 6 people who really have any sort of chance. Why would I even try when I know there are at least 5 people who will definitely do a better job than me?

I would disagree. There is a difference between discouraging and giving the straight truth. The Foundry is hard work that will require months of effort to produce just one finished work. NOT saying that and tempering expectations is just inviting the newer mapmaker for greater disappointment. I would also disagree on there not being tools. There are a slew of tutorials ripe for the picking in the "Foundry Tips and Discussion" forum of all places. Additionally, most experienced mapmakers attempt to suggest not just a change, but roughly how it would be accomplished. So instead of "the map is too dark," they'll add "consider using a Brightness adjustment, or lighter colors on the bonus regions."

Something implied that needs to be considered is that tone through text is purely subjective to the reader, and perception becomes the reality. If one reads a post and thinks that the entire thing is in a beat-you-over-the-head tone of voice, then it is so, even if the poster writing it was thinking from a "hey, this is something to look at, just saying" tone of voice. We are strictly limited by the medium we use, and we have to consider those limitations. I have always interpreted all but the most venomous posts in a bemused, you-see-what-happened-was tone of voice. As a result, I'm not pissed off at every post of potential improvement (not complaint!) from people.

6) Why do mapmakers always whine about maps not quenching fast enough? Oh wait, I guess just because this is CC and we already whine about Sugs and Bugs not moving fast enough, C&A not moving fast enough...

Because it used to take less time, far less time. The development cycle used to be 2-4 months, then 4-6, and now it's at 6-12 for just one map. That's a long time investment, a lot of it spent waiting for people to just post something to do. I stated earlier in topic that nostalgia is a very powerful human emotion. Knowing how it Used to Beā„¢ and wishing it were so can cause a lot of posted grief over the fact that it is not.
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby the.killing.44 on Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:55 pm

SuicidalSnowman wrote:4) Why do maps start out with fledgling support, scratching along tooth and nail, then some experienced map maker comes in and offers a laundry list of foundry to-dos, then disappears? If you are going to use your experience or knowledge to promote your ideas, then do it with some meaning. We need people to stop popping into a new map makers thread, listing ten complaints, saying "Well, from my experience with other maps", then disappearing.

Tack basically summed everything up perfectly, so I'm just going to go on about this one question.

Thinking back to my first map (well, map that I was really committed to), I remember that one of these "laundry lists" you talk about was the greatest comment I could get. To sound really cornyā€”but true!ā€”whenever I was following my map, I'd refresh the Drafting Room every couple of minutes to see if oaktown or MrBenn were browsing it (they were the two prominent mods who dealt with new drafts). I said this in a conversation to Benn about the mods, but from my experience, a post from a mod is wholly more productive in upping a new mapper's esteem and his or her map's quality.

The same applied to the "vets," or elitists, as they (we?!) have been misconstrued. The first issue in your posts is that you feel that the experienced mappers just flee away from the map. This may be true in some cases, but, personally, I'll offer my support to a map for any number of versions, until I feel what I had an issue with is fixed. The difference, however, lies that you can't expect every experienced mapper to follow every new map. And that's where it takes a bit of an effort on the new mapper's part, disecting the "laundry list" by not only responding to and dealing with each of the things posted, but looking at the concerns and trying to get a feel for what the Foundry's looking for.

You can be as stubborn as you want with feedback (Tack said it well: "[pork's] argument/complaint/debate/whatever with the "foundry elite" has gotten to the point that any post they make, for good or ill, will offtrack the topic."), but it comes down to making better maps. If you can't take a laundry list of good feedback and make a better map, then it's not the arrow, it's the Indian. Tack's point about the way in which experienced mappers leave feedback holds true, and call me elitist, but I do honestly think that a laundry list from someone's whose opinions are obviously valuable is the most productive comment left to a map. Look at the scenario you outlined: "Why do maps start out with fledgling support, scratching along tooth and nailā€¦." Doesn't this imply that a large list of well-put feedback is the best thing that could happen to a floundering map? The other scenario you reference is about a map that is well-accepted by the non-experienced mappers, which is in time blasted by one or more experienced ones. There is any number of analogies to use, but they all boil down to experience speaking: if a mapper has gone through the process (something people oft forget when calling us elitist) to get a map quenched, doesn't that mean that the mapper knows what the Foundry, CC, and the "community" is looking for? And in a laundry list of changes, much more often than not those changes are exactly that: changes that will help the map proceed and get farther through the arduous process that leads to a final result of a map CC wants.
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby ender516 on Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:47 am

I have no quarrel with any of your comments, 44, except the following:
the.killing.44 wrote: ... if a mapper has gone through the process (something people oft forget when calling us elitist) to get a map quenched, doesn't that mean that the mapper knows what the Foundry, CC, and the "community" is looking for?

You get two out of three for that one. Yes, a mapper with a quench under the belt must have some idea of what the Foundry and CC (meaning the admins) want, but it is no indication of connection with the community. And why do you use those quotation marks? Are you trying to express irony? Do you not believe that there is a CC community? Perhaps you believe that there is one, but not one worth recognizing? Pardon me, but your "elitism" is showing. (And yes, I am being ironic. I'm not sure you are being elitist here, but I believe it is this kind of remark that has earned the Foundry its reputation. As was stated earlier, tone is hard to pick up from text.)
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby TaCktiX on Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:56 am

ender516 wrote:You get two out of three for that one. Yes, a mapper with a quench under the belt must have some idea of what the Foundry and CC (meaning the admins) want, but it is no indication of connection with the community. And why do you use those quotation marks? Are you trying to express irony? Do you not believe that there is a CC community? Perhaps you believe that there is one, but not one worth recognizing? Pardon me, but your "elitism" is showing. (And yes, I am being ironic. I'm not sure you are being elitist here, but I believe it is this kind of remark that has earned the Foundry its reputation. As was stated earlier, tone is hard to pick up from text.)


I don't consider that fair to .44. He was using community in the context of pork's reference to a large number of potential "alpha testers" of maps if they were released for play sooner in the lifecycle. The CC community certainly exists and I know that .44 (and myself) believe in it. Terminology always gets sticky when we all use the same terms. :)
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby mibi on Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:18 am

Can't we all just act like adults (myself excluded).
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby porkenbeans on Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:29 am

mibi wrote:Can't we all just act like adults (myself excluded).
I watched that Martha Stuart video, and kinda liked that guy she was interviewing. I think that if I met him in real life,we could have a beer or two, and I would teach him how to shoot some pool, and he would show me a thing or two about photoshop. 8-[
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby RedBaron0 on Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:42 am

Where's Dr. Phil when you need him? ;)
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby mibi on Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:36 am

porkenbeans wrote:
mibi wrote:Can't we all just act like adults (myself excluded).
I watched that Martha Stuart video, and kinda liked that guy she was interviewing. I think that if I met him in real life,we could have a beer or two, and I would teach him how to shoot some pool, and he would show me a thing or two about photoshop. 8-[


nah.
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby SuicidalSnowman on Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:00 pm

Tack, thank you for the response and fine comments. I hope that one day I can browse a foundry like the one you describe!

I do follow other maps than Porkenbeans, but to be honest, I don't really care for a lot of the stuff coming through the foundry. I am (personally) tired of seeing another tank battle from some village during WWI, although I can appreciate the work going into them. But I know I followed the Japan map during the very early stages, I follow most of Helix's maps after going through the Society of Cooks with him. I was also very active in the Research and Conquer thread, and I still await the day that gets properly revived. I have looked into any "Classic Revamp" type maps.

At the same time, and this is something I hope I made clear, I am not extremely active in the Foundry. I read the maps, take a look at them, see what they look like, which way they are going, but at lot of times I have very few useful comments to add, because most of it goes right over my head.

Anyways, the whole point wasn't necessarily to stir up anyone's feathers or prove that I know this stuff better than you guys. I just want to let you guys know what someone a little more outside the fray thinks.

Thanks for listening. Hopefully we can toast to a new and improved Foundry this new year.
Cheers,
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby sully800 on Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:04 pm

SuicidalSnowman wrote:Anyways, the whole point wasn't necessarily to stir up anyone's feathers or prove that I know this stuff better than you guys. I just want to let you guys know what someone a little more outside the fray thinks.

Thanks for listening. Hopefully we can toast to a new and improved Foundry this new year.
Cheers,
-Snow


Hear hear! Thanks for your input and thoughtful responses. May the new year bring a new face to the foundry, and a more amiable communication process for all!
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby TaCktiX on Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:37 pm

SuicidalSnowman wrote:I was also very active in the Research and Conquer thread, and I still await the day that gets properly revived.


Draft 1 was completed 2 weeks ago (perfect timing for the Foundry to go down for revamping, yeah!), and it will get posted almost immediately on the new year. There are some graphical tweaks I know need doing, some graphical ideas I would like to air, and Oliver and I both have a slew of gameplay features/ideas/solid numbers to talk about. So even though I'm going to Basic for 2 months (read: zero internet, period dot), there should be plenty to talk about. Until it hits Vacation again. Dang my transitionary life...
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:11 pm

Btw if anyone wants to see & comment on my new, yet unpublished map, throw me a pm. I will be posting it as soon as the foundry opens, but if you're just itching to see some new maps and can't wait, I'd be happy to receive some last minute feedback...
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby captainwalrus on Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:51 am

  • Beta does not fix any graphics problems. The people who know graphics and can help most are foundry people. The foundry system makes the best maps, graphics quality wise.
  • Beta does work to fix some gameplay things, but that is why we have our current beta system, to fix any problems that might be occurring.
  • If any map that qualifies went to beta there would be many many problems.
    show: problems

The foundry system is a good mix between community and quality. Some places get rid of the whole idea of making your own maps, and just hire a few quality mapmakers to do everything. It makes nicer maps faster. We at CC are willing to sacrifice a bit so that we can have our nice community driven system.
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby porkenbeans on Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:30 pm

Yes, but what you fail to realize is, It is not the graphics that I am talking about per say. I have had projects myself, and seen others, that were derailed and shelved, not because of "graphic" quality, but rather because of artistic style or view. The Foundry does indeed do a bang up job, at helping with graphic quality, but it fails when it tries to dictate subjective things like artistic style. It is not their fault really. It's just that taste in art is varied, and when just a small hand full of people are polled, you will not be able to get a true representation of the whole group.

When it comes to creating quality graphic maps, our Foundry is not in need of any changes.
However, when it comes to producing a wide variety of maps that appeal to many different artistic tastes, our Foundry IS in need of some changes. ;)

My call is for the experienced map makers, to continue to help with graphics. And, also help with style and artistic matters, but once a map maker has chosen a path, let him or her develop their vision.

With the help of the veterans, the new map maker will be able to bring their own style up to quality standards. And CC will benefit by the addition of increased variety in its maps.
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby captainwalrus on Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:36 pm

No, most of your stuff was derailed because the graphics were bad, (i.e. Cohan)
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby WidowMakers on Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:36 pm

captainwalrus wrote:No, most of your stuff was derailed because the graphics were bad, (i.e. Cohan)


I would replace bad with " not as good as they should be, confusing, hard to understand , or poorly executed"

People did not dislike the concepts (theme, GP) but how they were visually represented
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby porkenbeans on Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:52 pm

WidowMakers wrote:
captainwalrus wrote:No, most of your stuff was derailed because the graphics were bad, (i.e. Cohan)


I would replace bad with " not as good as they should be, confusing, hard to understand , or poorly executed"

People did not dislike the concepts (theme, GP) but how they were visually represented
If you can be more specific, I would like to respond to this.

FTR, a few people have commented on my maps with praise. And taking into account they are commenting on images that are in most cases only the first drafts, I think my point is made.
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby captainwalrus on Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:54 pm

porkenbeans wrote:
WidowMakers wrote:
captainwalrus wrote:No, most of your stuff was derailed because the graphics were bad, (i.e. Cohan)


I would replace bad with " not as good as they should be, confusing, hard to understand , or poorly executed"

People did not dislike the concepts (theme, GP) but how they were visually represented
If you can be more specific, I would like to respond to this.

This isn't the thread for that. Mibi said a lot of what was wrong in the thread, and so did other people. Look there, don't waste others' time with your complaints.
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby porkenbeans on Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:58 pm

captainwalrus wrote:
porkenbeans wrote:
WidowMakers wrote:
captainwalrus wrote:No, most of your stuff was derailed because the graphics were bad, (i.e. Cohan)


I would replace bad with " not as good as they should be, confusing, hard to understand , or poorly executed"

People did not dislike the concepts (theme, GP) but how they were visually represented
If you can be more specific, I would like to respond to this.

This isn't the thread for that. Mibi said a lot of what was wrong in the thread, and so did other people. Look there, don't waste others' time with your complaints.
I happen to be the OP, and I believe that this discussion is on topic, and relevant to the conversation.
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Re: Foundry discussion

Postby captainwalrus on Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:02 pm

porkenbeans wrote:I am talking about all those maps that just died in the Foundry for lack of support. The word "support" is a misnomer. It only means Foundry support, not community support.

Well how do you suggest getting the greater CC community involved in the foundry process? They are welcome to come, but most people don't want to take the time to come in and look through, see what needs to be fixed, figure out how to fix it, and share that in an easy to understand way. When non-foundry people do come in, they usually just say something like, I love this map, quench soon! Which is unhelpful. The foundry community is what counts, but everyone can be in the foundry community if they want!
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