Foundry discussion

[porkenbeans]

What some Forum goers do not understand is, Only a very small amount of members have ever visited the Forums.

Out of that small number, only a handful have visited the Foundry.

And as it has turned out, there are indeed a very small group that ends up dictating all that goes on in the Foundry.

This has led to many problems.
1.) The obvious clan manipulation of the "quenchers", or what ever it is that they call themselves.

2.) Quenched maps that are NOT received well by the community, (this revamp for example). Along with others like British Isles, and a whole slew of cookie cutter pieces of crap.

3.) An overall bad reputation, that keeps away people, that just do not wish to deal with the overinflated egos, of a few that are, or act like children.


As for the "SPAM".
All you have to do is, include a check box so as to take your name off of the list of members, that are not bothered by it.

The Foundry needs new blood.
The foundry needs to dish out a little humility to some of its members.
The Foundry needs to take the less played maps off of the roster, and kick them down to dead projects, where new or existing cartographers can have a go at making them better.
To put it as blunt as I can...
The Foundry needs a Revolution.

Do not get me wrong, There are some nice people in the Foundry. It's just that it could be much more enjoyable, and productive, if only...

[captainwalrus]

What some Forum goers do not understand is, Only a very small amount of members have ever visited the Forums.

Out of that small number, only a handful have visited the Foundry.

And as it has turned out, there are indeed a very small group that ends up dictating all that goes on in the Foundry.

This has led to many problems.
1.) The obvious clan manipulation of the "quenchers", or what ever it is that they call themselves.

2.) Quenched maps that are NOT received well by the community, (this revamp for example). Along with others like British Isles, and a whole slew of cookie cutter pieces of crap.

3.) An overall bad reputation, that keeps away people, that just do not wish to deal with the overinflated egos, of a few that are, or act like children.


As for the "SPAM".
All you have to do is, include a check box so as to take your name off of the list of members, that are not bothered by it.

The Foundry needs new blood.
The foundry needs to dish out a little humility to some of its members.
The Foundry needs to take the less played maps off of the roster, and kick them down to dead projects, where new or existing cartographers can have a go at making them better.
To put it as blunt as I can...
The Foundry needs a Revolution.

Do not get me wrong, There are some nice people in the Foundry. It's just that it could be much more enjoyable, and productive, if only...

The foundry produces better quality maps than any other site out there. You look at any other site, like landgrab or whatever, and their maps suck. Why? Because they aren't tough with what is allowed, they don't tell people when stuff is bad, which is fine for them, but it isn't the way to run a business.

[porkenbeans]

What some Forum goers do not understand is, Only a very small amount of members have ever visited the Forums.

Out of that small number, only a handful have visited the Foundry.

And as it has turned out, there are indeed a very small group that ends up dictating all that goes on in the Foundry.

This has led to many problems.
1.) The obvious clan manipulation of the "quenchers", or what ever it is that they call themselves.

2.) Quenched maps that are NOT received well by the community, (this revamp for example). Along with others like British Isles, and a whole slew of cookie cutter pieces of crap.

3.) An overall bad reputation, that keeps away people, that just do not wish to deal with the overinflated egos, of a few that are, or act like children.


As for the "SPAM".
All you have to do is, include a check box so as to take your name off of the list of members, that are not bothered by it.

The Foundry needs new blood.
The foundry needs to dish out a little humility to some of its members.
The Foundry needs to take the less played maps off of the roster, and kick them down to dead projects, where new or existing cartographers can have a go at making them better.
To put it as blunt as I can...
The Foundry needs a Revolution.

Do not get me wrong, There are some nice people in the Foundry. It's just that it could be much more enjoyable, and productive, if only...

The foundry produces better quality maps than any other site out there. You look at any other site, like landgrab or whatever, and their maps suck. Why? Because they aren't tough with what is allowed, they don't tell people when stuff is bad, which is fine for them, but it isn't the way to run a business.

I am sure NOT disagreeing with you there. CC certainly does have the best maps around. But you have got to agree that it has lately become a little less than what it should be. The dwindling involvement from new map makers is evident. And the rest of the CC forum community is not even peeking in anymore.
All I'm trying to say is, there is a good reason for this. I am only trying to point out what I think those reasons are. And, what I think the solutions might be.

If veteran map makers are allowed to say whatever they want, and cut to pieces new map makers projects with profanity and vile, Then I can certainly say point blank, what I think is the truth. But I will leave out the profanity. Just point blank, in your face observations.

[porkenbeans]

I was interested in what you said about CC's maps being better than others like "landgrab", so I thought I would go take a look. I grabbed a few maps to show from there. I did not look to see how many maps they have or which were their best ones. So I just grabbed the first 9 or 10 to get an overall feel of what they have.

From what I see, I wold have to say that you are right. CC does beat them out, but not by much. I see some pretty nice stuff. Maybe I will open an account so I can check out all of their maps.

I wonder what their Foundry process is like ?

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I just noticed that "Foist" makes a lot of their maps.

[natty dread]

I just noticed that "Foist" makes a lot of their maps.

And quite frankly, they suck.

Sure, he has some artistic vision, but I would imagine, that over here none of those maps would fly, not even out from the drafting room.

I get the world map, but the rest. Aargh. What's the point, zillion different zigsaw-like graphical vomits?

The last 2 were admittedly OK. If they were put through the foundry process they might even be good.

But don't get me started on that skull map... awful, just awful. And that hexarma map, looks like someone drew it in 1 day and called it finished.

[bryguy]

The foundry produces better quality maps than any other site out there. You look at any other site, like landgrab or whatever, and their maps suck. Why? Because they aren't tough with what is allowed, they don't tell people when stuff is bad, which is fine for them, but it isn't the way to run a business.

Correction, the foundry produces better quality risk maps than any other. If you're talking about maps, then The Cartographers Guild has the foundry beat.

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Eh just a couple of the many over there. Honestly as I said if you're talking about maps, I think that they have the foundry beat. If you're talking about risk maps, then yeah we have the better quality risk maps.

[Industrial Helix]

I'm gonna side with bryguy on that one, those maps are frickin sweet.

[captainwalrus]

I just noticed that "Foist" makes a lot of their maps.

Yes, from what I have heard he is their only person with quality maps. They aren't ass good as ours, and they have a lot more shitty maps too. We have almost no shitty maps, they have many. That is the big difference.

[captainwalrus]

The foundry produces better quality maps than any other site out there. You look at any other site, like landgrab or whatever, and their maps suck. Why? Because they aren't tough with what is allowed, they don't tell people when stuff is bad, which is fine for them, but it isn't the way to run a business.

That is what I meant. Some of those maps are amazing, but most of them don't transfer to risk very well.
Edit: I believe the last one was made for some sort of board game, but not one that was like risk.

[WidowMakers]

You really can't compare CC to Carto guild.

-Different size restrictions (we have them, they don't)
-Different Purpose (CC=playable boards, CG=fantasy maps fro D&D of other)
-Different restrictions (CC=names, terts, 88's Arny circles, legends, rules / CG=none of those)

Example:RC airplane to Boeing 747
both are similar in looks but different in purpose.

So while there maps are great and there are many more much better than these (IMHO) it serves no purpose in comparing them to our maps here.

WM

[The Neon Peon]

To me it seems that the foundry has had a whole lot of new blood in it lately. Just because a lot of them are turned away and leave, does not mean that a large amount are staying.

Cairns - making a lot of maps
WM - seems to have stopped making maps for a bit. (the map pack is all we saw from him, and none going atm)
qwert - seems to have left
gimil, oak, MrBenn - don't make that many maps anymore

When the foundry comes back, take a look through the main foundry, and see who is making the maps. It seems to me like most of them are by people that are new to creating maps. We've not gotten there yet, but I'm pretty sure that having only 3 maps by veteran makers being in the main foundry right now (I can't remember there being more, at least) is a good indicator of which direction the foundry is headed.

[natty dread]

WM - seems to have stopped making maps for a bit. (the map pack is all we saw from him, and none going atm)

Isn't he making draknor 2 atm?

[WidowMakers]

WM - seems to have stopped making maps for a bit. (the map pack is all we saw from him, and none going atm)

Isn't he making draknor 2 atm?

1) The Hive - In FF so 99% done
2) Draknor 2 - started workign on but now on hold until after...
3) Germany Revamp Contest

[The Neon Peon]

WM - seems to have stopped making maps for a bit. (the map pack is all we saw from him, and none going atm)

Isn't he making draknor 2 atm?

1) The Hive - In FF so 99% done
2) Draknor 2 - started workign on but now on hold until after...
3) Germany Revamp Contest

I stand corrected... The Hive... overlooked that one. (didn't count Draknor 2, as we've not had that much posted yet) Will be looking forward to seeing your Germany entry.

[AndyDufresne]

I think the whole idea of the Foundry is already revolutionary.


--Andy

[porkenbeans]

bryguy,
Those maps are fabulous. I will certainly be checking out that site.


natty said:
Sure, he has some artistic vision, but I would imagine, that over here none of those maps would fly, not even out from the drafting room.

natty you are just cheering for the home team.

natty said
I get the world map, but the rest. Aargh. What's the point, zillion different zigsaw-like graphical vomits?

Now you are just booing the visiting team.
none of those maps are "graphical vomits". And you have gone a far ways in proving MY point.
I am NOT saying that we do not have some very talented map makers. What I AM saying is, It is not wise to let our best map makers decide on who's projects are worthy, and who's are not. This may seem like a good idea on it's face, but it tends to produce a cookie cutter Foundry, that is devoid of variety in the way of style, theme, and vision. Which brings up that "skull" map. While it is not very good graphically, it is unique, and with a revamp, it could become a very nice map.

My main point that I am trying in vane to get across is,
All maps that meet CC requirements should be allowed to go to beta testing, where the community will decide, through a questioner, if a map will make it to live play. Yes, I know very well, that some will not make it their first time around. This is to be expected. Some may not ever make it.

The questioner will point out exactly where the map is lacking, and therefor, allow the map maker, along with the "helping hand" of the Foundry, to try and improve the map.

This way, we will start to see a wider variety of maps making it into live play, instead of the same-ole- samo.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. This old saying is very true, and it applies to the current mess in the Foundry.
I have been speaking out about this for some time now, and instead of going to improve things, it has only achieved to ruffle feathers. It seems that a certain portion of the Foundry elite, have gone out of their way to shut me down. They have not the attitude, of wanting to help new map makers. They DO have the attitude of a street gang, wanting to retain their power.

My suggestion to the Foundry Proper is, implement a beta testing procedure, that resembles something as I have suggested.
Let the community have the final say.
Let the veteran map makers go back to making maps, and helping others if they want.
Let all of this childish power tripping, ...come to an end.

[sully800]

Have you ever considered that the reason you ruffle feathers is because of how you approach matters and how you address others? You purposefully incite others to try and make your point (ie repeatedly scathing about "the foundry elite") which only serves to weaken your argument and promote bickering.

I agree that the foundry could use new members, new cartographers, new participants, and I also think that virtually all active members of the foundry share that same wish. I don't agree with most of your proposed methods to reach this end result.

Spamming every CC member with PM's works for a map or two (hence why WM got such a large number of votes in the poll for the Hive). However conducting such a PM assault for every map and every critical issue is a whole different story - I personally would hate that kind of Spam and I don't think many other users would appreciate it.

We should take steps to encourage general CC members to use the forums, and specifically to give their feedback on maps before they are released. At the same time all cartographers should do their best to objectively listen to the feedback they receive on their maps, and to implement changes that genuinely improve the map. In most cases I think a lot of map makers try to do this, but we could ALL use some help here. Finally I think some method of revamping underplayed maps is a good idea - but please keep in mind, if a few members love the current map they will be upset if you remove it from live play just because the rest of the community doesn't share their love for that map. There needs to be a way of protecting minority interests in maps, because some members can be very loud and unruly with regard to change, despite not actively participating in the process that creates those changes (ie Germany Revamp).

In the end we all want more participation and opinions for future maps, and hopefully the changes to the foundry will help to reach that end.

[porkenbeans]

Have you ever considered that the reason you ruffle feathers is because of how you approach matters and how you address others? You purposefully incite others to try and make your point (ie repeatedly scathing about "the foundry elite") which only serves to weaken your argument and promote bickering.

I agree that the foundry could use new members, new cartographers, new participants, and I also think that virtually all active members of the foundry share that same wish. I don't agree with most of your proposed methods to reach this end result.

Spamming every CC member with PM's works for a map or two (hence why WM got such a large number of votes in the poll for the Hive). However conducting such a PM assault for every map and every critical issue is a whole different story - I personally would hate that kind of Spam and I don't think many other users would appreciate it.

We should take steps to encourage general CC members to use the forums, and specifically to give their feedback on maps before they are released. At the same time all cartographers should do their best to objectively listen to the feedback they receive on their maps, and to implement changes that genuinely improve the map. In most cases I think a lot of map makers try to do this, but we could ALL use some help here. Finally I think some method of revamping underplayed maps is a good idea - but please keep in mind, if a few members love the current map they will be upset if you remove it from live play just because the rest of the community doesn't share their love for that map. There needs to be a way of protecting minority interests in maps, because some members can be very loud and unruly with regard to change, despite not actively participating in the process that creates those changes (ie Germany Revamp).

In the end we all want more participation and opinions for future maps, and hopefully the changes to the foundry will help to reach that end.

Oh, so let me get this right. It is OK for certain people to come into every project that I am involved in, and cut it to pieces with profane and vile comments, but it is somehow out of line if I speak up and try to stand up to the bulling ?

Also about the spamming. I already said that an opt out can be offered to anyone that is annoyed by the so called "spam". How difficult is that ?

[AndyDufresne]

Exaggeration and inflammatory speech never help anyone's cause!


--Andy

[porkenbeans]

Exaggeration and inflammatory speech never help anyone's cause!


--Andy

Except for the bully that is.

[Industrial Helix]

One good way to encourage CC members to support a map is to post a link in games... I was in a game with Kabanellas in which he asked for support for the Third Crusade. Even though I'd seen it before in the foundry, I wasn't going to post until he said something in game. I did it a few times with the Unification of Germany and Italy maps and while I don't think it really pulled a whole lot of posts or anything, I did get some support from the little chat box with suggestions or general supportive comments.

Just throwing that out there.

[porkenbeans]

One good way to encourage CC members to support a map is to post a link in games... I was in a game with Kabanellas in which he asked for support for the Third Crusade. Even though I'd seen it before in the foundry, I wasn't going to post until he said something in game. I did it a few times with the Unification of Germany and Italy maps and while I don't think it really pulled a whole lot of posts or anything, I did get some support from the little chat box with suggestions or general supportive comments.

Just throwing that out there.

Yes, But all of this can easily be fixed if we just let all maps that meet CC requirements advance to beta testing. If it is a terrible map, the beta poll will tell us. It will also tell us exactly what needs to be improved upon.
Let the Foundry just do the job of stamping maps when they have met the requirements, and let the beta testing decide the maps future.

[AndyDufresne]

I think all the maps that have reached beta has reached CC requirements [requirements at the time of quenching]. And those that haven't---haven't.


--Andy

[porkenbeans]

I think all the maps that have reached beta has reached CC requirements [requirements at the time of quenching]. And those that haven't---haven't.


--Andy

But all the MAPS that have met CC requirements have NOT made it to beta.

And beta is NOT being used as it should be. It should not matter if a map is popular or not in the Foundry. Let beta do the popularity poll.

Then the numbers can be posted for all in the Foundry to see. If the Vets want to lend a helping hand at that point to bring those numbers up, then maybe the map maker will be able to raise those numbers the next time around. Certain min. scores on each question in the beta poll should be determined and can be adjusted as the process evolves.

In my opinion this one simple implementation of a more robust beta process, will fix the biggest problem in the Foundry.

[The Neon Peon]

I think all the maps that have reached beta has reached CC requirements [requirements at the time of quenching]. And those that haven't---haven't.


--Andy

But all the MAPS that have met CC requirements have NOT made it to beta.

And beta is NOT being used as it should be. It should not matter if a map is popular or not in the Foundry. Let beta do the popularity poll.

Then the numbers can be posted for all in the Foundry to see. If the Vets want to lend a helping hand at that point to bring those numbers up, then maybe the map maker will be able to raise those numbers the next time around. Certain min. scores on each question in the beta poll should be determined and can be adjusted as the process evolves.

In my opinion this one simple implementation of a more robust beta process, will fix the biggest problem in the Foundry.

pork, might you give us some examples of maps that did not make it through the foundry if most of the people were saying they wanted to play on it? might you also give us some examples of maps that made beta while many people in the thread were saying the map is terrible?

As for the people that didn't comment on the map while it was in the process but complained about it after... Isn't that like complaining about who was elected when they didn't vote? I think that if they don't care enough about new maps to tell us what they think of them, then we should care enough about their opinions to do something about it.