Good Morning Woodboro (V7.X) -- Home for the Holidays

[MrBenn]

I'm getting the feeling that your gameplay system is acceptable despite the potential double-pirate team games possibility.

Nice work evil

If my mathematics still serves me right, then the odds are (1/56 = 1.8%) for 8p dubs and (3/56 = 5.4%) for quads.

Both within reasonable limits.

[Evil DIMwit]

I'm getting the feeling that your gameplay system is acceptable despite the potential double-pirate team games possibility.

Nice work evil

If my mathematics still serves me right, then the odds are (1/56 = 1.8%) for 8p dubs and (3/56 = 5.4%) for quads.

Both within reasonable limits.

I think the problem comes with 2v2: There's a 1/3 chance that one team starts out with both pirate stations. The only thing that can be really done about that is to more or less balance the pirates with the legal stations, I think.

[MrBenn]

4p - each player will be allocated 1 radio station. The pirates enter the pot to be allocated with the surplus radio stations.

I think the problem comes with 2v2: There's a 1/3 chance that one team starts out with both pirate stations. The only thing that can be really done about that is to more or less balance the pirates with the legal stations, I think.

So in 4p dubs, there is 1/4 chance of a given player having a pirate. There is also a 1/4 chance of the other partner having a pirate station. So the probability of both is 1/4 * 1/4= 1/16 = 6.25%. On second thoughts, it might be 1/4 * 1/3 = 1/12 = 8.33%... In either case, this is still below the arbitrary 10% threshold (if my hasty maths is still holding up)

[Evil DIMwit]

4p - each player will be allocated 1 radio station. The pirates enter the pot to be allocated with the surplus radio stations.

I think the problem comes with 2v2: There's a 1/3 chance that one team starts out with both pirate stations. The only thing that can be really done about that is to more or less balance the pirates with the legal stations, I think.

So in 4p dubs, there is 1/4 chance of a given player having a pirate. There is also a 1/4 chance of the other partner having a pirate station. So the probability of both is 1/4 * 1/4= 1/16 = 6.25%. On second thoughts, it might be 1/4 * 1/3 = 1/12 = 8.33%... In either case, this is still below the arbitrary 10% threshold (if my hasty maths is still holding up)

That's for any given player. If we're not given a player, the probability goes up fourfold. That is, since both pirates are necessarily assigned, let's use Player C to refer to the player who gets Carlin. Player C can't also have Klein, so there are three possible players left to whom Klein might be assigned, and one of them is Player C's teammate. That's a 1/3 chance.

By the same method we can see that in 8-player doubles, there's a 1/7 (about 14%) chance of Player C's partner belonging to the same team as C. In 8p quads that becomes 3/7 or 43%.

That means I need to pick one of the following:
--> Make the pirates more like regular stations to the point that there's barely a difference between them
--> Balance the pirates and legal stations so that they behave differently but statistically there's no advantage to getting one or the other (rather difficult, I suspect)
--> Decide that Good Morning Woodboro's nature as a small conquest map requires that it be limited to 6 players, and hope that the management agrees
--> Wait around for more XML tricks to become available
--> Ignore the issue and hope it's not a problem
--> Any other brilliant ideas?

[MrBenn]

--> Any other brilliant ideas?

We could decide that this is as balanced as we can make it for 8 players. If it emerges as a significant defect during Beta, then we could consider restricting it to 6 players...
Does that sound like a hypothetically viable solution?

</me goes to re-examine his degree certificate... who put 'mathematics' on there >

[Evil DIMwit]

Yeah, that sounds like a plan. Though since I'm restructuring the map right now, I'll try to make the pirates a little more balanced.

[yeti_c]

Just a general comment here dimwit... I really like this map your second attempt here at CC...

It's really refreshing, original and amusing - all things I like to see in life!!!

I can't tell which pirate station is which on the map?!

Change the pirate stations to not border the sponsors? ... either that or make the bonus with a sponsor weaker for Pirate stations (Pirates don't have sponsors anyway?)

</me goes to re-examine his degree certificate... who put 'mathematics' on there >

Amusing.

C.

[Evil DIMwit]

Thanks to everyone who's commented and who continue to comment. There's been a long gap since the last update, partly because I've started having actual work to do, and partly because I'd reached a point where I wasn't sure where I could take the map but I knew I could do better. So I went ahead and completely redid the map in vector graphics, and changed the configuration around while I was at it. Lapid and Roy are now the pirates; Ott and McKay are radio fanatics (which serve as targets for the radio antennae to assault).

Click image to enlarge.

Now, I'm hardly done -- I have to put up the instructions, the title, probably a backdrop of some sort -- but I think this is an improvement. It'd certainly be easier to change around this way.

[ender516]

Can I ask what graphics tool you used for the vector graphics? It seems to me that scalable vector graphics should be the best avenue to a map that can be scaled up or down without loss of detail. Since the "start with the large map"/"start with the small map" debate doesn't seem to have been completely settled yet, SVG might be the way to sidestep the issue.

[Evil DIMwit]

Can I ask what graphics tool you used for the vector graphics? It seems to me that scalable vector graphics should be the best avenue to a map that can be scaled up or down without loss of detail. Since the "start with the large map"/"start with the small map" debate doesn't seem to have been completely settled yet, SVG might be the way to sidestep the issue.

That's the plan. I'm using Inkscape; it's a pretty spiffy tool.

[Evil DIMwit]

Aaand, here's the next full version:

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

[natty dread]

"We R Us"

that's funny...

[ender516]

This looks pretty good, but:

• Couldn't you use a bit more space for troop numbers? There is enough for single digits, but add the colour code and another digit, and a lot of these will be hanging out where they may be prone to illegibility.
• I seem to remember a sample graphic earlier in this topic where the space around the sponsors was grey: I liked how it suggested a parking lot, and it would break up the green a bit.

[Industrial Helix]

I don't think I like the waves over the whole of the map... it just makes it hard to look at in my opinion. Love how the different stations, ect. are much more recognizable.

[Evil DIMwit]

I don't think I like the waves over the whole of the map... it just makes it hard to look at in my opinion.

Should I just make it plain green, or do you think a sparser pattern would look better?

[yeti_c]

What's the benefit of a fanatic? - or is it just a long range attack oppurtunity?

C.

[Evil DIMwit]

What's the benefit of a fanatic? - or is it just a long range attack oppurtunity?

C.

Essentially that. This is a very easy map to chokepoint so fanatics add significantly to mobility.

[natty dread]

Just out of curiosity... are AM frequencies really still used in the US?

[Industrial Helix]

I don't think I like the waves over the whole of the map... it just makes it hard to look at in my opinion.

Should I just make it plain green, or do you think a sparser pattern would look better?

I'm leaning towards plain green but can't honestly say without seeing it. If you have a sparser pattern in mind, give it a shot. But the waves make it too busy, imo.

[Evil DIMwit]

Okay, not quite the next version; I plan to add some lines to the parking lots and make them look more parking lotty. Tell me what you think of the grass, though.

Click image to enlarge.

Just out of curiosity... are AM frequencies really still used in the US?

Yep. It's mostly used for talk radio and less popular stations, but also for important things like highway advisory notices.

[isaiah40]

Much better Evil since the last time I poked my head in here. A very good change!! Your legend is very easy to read and understand how the attacks go.

Okay, not quite the next version; I plan to add some lines to the parking lots and make them look more parking lotty. Tell me what you think of the grass, though.

Just out of curiosity... are AM frequencies really still used in the US?

Yep. It's mostly used for talk radio and less popular stations, but also for important things like highway advisory notices.

I like this grass a whole lot better, so much cleaner like it was freshly cut I really don't think you need to add the parking lines in the parking lots. I think it would make those areas more clutter. Right now they are clean and easy on the eyes.

As for our AM stations, we have a few that are allowed to increase their power at night so you can hear them 100's of miles away.

Edit: Can you center the title and sub title please, they are over to the left a little (that is unless this a left leaning map )

[Evil DIMwit]

Edit: Can you center the title and sub title please, they are over to the left a little (that is unless this a left leaning map )

Actually, the title is somewhat to the left because the map itself is higher on the right side, which in turn forces the station names higher on that side, which means that if the title was centered it would look imbalanced.

[isaiah40]

Edit: Can you center the title and sub title please, they are over to the left a little (that is unless this a left leaning map )

Actually, the title is somewhat to the left because the map itself is higher on the right side, which in turn forces the station names higher on that side, which means that if the title was centered it would look imbalanced.

Okay I see it now

[Evil DIMwit]

There hasn't been a comment on gameplay since the last update. Does that mean everyone's distracted by the shiny graphics?

[natty dread]

There hasn't been a comment on gameplay since the last update. Does that mean everyone's distracted by the shiny graphics?

I tried hard to look for some criticism, but I couldn't find any. I guess I need my morning cup of coffee... but I'm out of coffee... and the stores are all closed... and she's buying a stairway.... erm..... where was I?

Oh, very well, here we go:

I think, maybe the Real stations should have a slightly bigger autodeploy... since they have to conquer the antenna each turn, when the pirate stations can just attack directly... Or is there some other way this is already balanced? I can't see if there is, but I just woke up...

On the other hand, this gives the problem, that with current bonuses, the real stations would get 50% more troops... which would also be an imbalance: if it goes to a stacking contest, they're in a clear advantage there... So I think the only solution is to increase the troop "scale"... Make all the troop numbers bigger, so the relative difference between the bonuses can be made smaller.