What is your opinion on the foundry [off-topic thread]

[Raskholnikov]

Well I am very glad we have gone beyond accusations and invectives and are discussing specific issues and how to ensure they do not happen again, in order to re-establish a fun and cooperative work atmosphere in the Foundry between all members, old and new. In such a place, notions like "disdain" have no place and if anyone uses it it only shows a total lack of maturity and understanding of what the Foundry process is all about. Then again, that comment came from a 15-year old kid so I can understand his lack of judgement in such matters. However, someone should still let him know that actually stating that some foundry members are "disdained" by others and that it's their own fault if they are goes so much against every basic Foundry rule that they should a) apologise for stating so and b) never use such language again. This is what I mean by Foundry moderators keeping their house in order and ensuring the atmosphere here is kept friendly and cooperative.

On a more positive note, I want to thank Gimli for injecting a dose of sanity into all this and starting a sensible discussion where we can look at specific issues and try to resolve them in the interest of all, and especially this community and the Foundry which seeks to improve it and make it more fun and interesting. This is no small contribution and I. for one, am really impressed with your efforts and very happy to see that the Foundry can count of members like you. Thank you, again, for your efforts and contribution.

R

[porkenbeans]

I personally think warnings should have been issued. And that Mibi post in the conan thread was WAY over the baiting line.

Just because you're not copied in on correspondence between moderators and other CC members, doesn't mean that we are turning a "blind eye", or that the "house is not in order".

Words of advice, Warnings and Forum Vacations will be meted out where people continue to neglect the CC Community guidelines. Hoever, CC has never aired dirty laundry in public; and I do not intend to start doing so now.

I can understand that. But a pm to the person that makes a report would seem in order. Just so to know that the report has been looked at. It would mean a lot.

No I am not telling "porkies"
I did receive a ban. I hate to even say that word. But it is a fact that I got one of those, er, bans. I think that I remember who it was that issued it. If I had the names of the mods to look at, I would be more sure it was him. I think that if you asked all of them, you would find out, and I would not have to say who I remember it was. After all I could be remembering wrong. So I know that you can understand my reluctance to name him in this open forum.

[captainwalrus]

Have you ever been to a charity dinner?

There are 2 types of people there, the average people, and then the VIPs. The average people want to help, they work hard, and eventually they might be able to contribute enough to be a VIP but for now, they are not there. So they sit at their various tables, waiting for food to come, playing with their silverwear (which is not al that fancy, and there is something odd on the spoon) and not complaining. Their chairs aren't that comfortable, and they are a little too high, and the table cloth is not really that nice. Then, there are the VIPs They are in nice velvet chairs, digging in to their steak and lobster and whatever they eat. Their food comes way before yours, and they are already on to the main course before your appitizer comes. You don't think that is fair, eh? Well, this meal is a small compensation for the immense time, and work and effort and money they put in to help the cause. They have up hours when they could be playing with their children (or studying for school if they are only 15) in order to help out somehting they really felt strongly about. They might be snobby to you, they might be a bit rude and loud somethimes, but is the host going to kick them out? No, because afterwards, those VIPs are most likely going to keep contributing and helping out, cause they still like the charity.

Now, think about how much time and effor you put into your Cohan map. You spen hours on it, hours that you could have been doing other things, maybe more fun things. Then remember how you had just begun. You were still in the ideas subforum. Think about how many edits and revisions a compleat map like supermax or seige went through. Think of all the time mibi could have spent doing other things, spending time with family, hanging out with friends. Think of everything he has accomplished and everything he gave up. He deserves your respect, he know what he is talking about. Even if it comes out harsh, just roll with it.

[RjBeals]

... Think of all the time mibi could have spent doing other things, spending time with family, hanging out with friends. Think of everything he has accomplished and everything he gave up. He deserves your respect, he know what he is talking about. Even if it comes out harsh, just roll with it.

wow.. i didn't think you were going there with that post. ha - this forum is riot. and you know, mibi has met the all great and powerful martha stewart.

[the.killing.44]

... Think of all the time mibi could have spent doing other things, spending time with family, hanging out with friends. Think of everything he has accomplished and everything he gave up. He deserves your respect, he know what he is talking about. Even if it comes out harsh, just roll with it.

wow.. i didn't think you were going there with that post. ha - this forum is riot. and you know, mibi has met the all great and powerful martha stewart.

That's not him, mibi's 15…

[porkenbeans]

@ CW,
I am sure that if YOU were the one that Sir mibi was dumping on, You would be singing a different tune.

[captainwalrus]

Naw, I have been dumped on a fair amount of time in my life, and I have come to take it pretty well. Maybe he went to far, but still, he knows what he is talking about. The Cohan map wan't that great. The jamaca could have worked, if you changed it to some other island but kept the same idea. If I were in your shoose, I would take a break from the foundry, at least from a map develpoment side, commenting is always good, and just work on stuff, read tutorials, become really good, then come back and shove it in has face.

[porkenbeans]

Naw, I have been dumped on a fair amount of time in my life, and I have come to take it pretty well. Maybe he went to far, but still, he knows what he is talking about. The Cohan map wan't that great. The jamaca could have worked, if you changed it to some other island but kept the same idea. If I were in your shoose, I would take a break from the foundry, at least from a map develpoment side, commenting is always good, and just work on stuff, read tutorials, become really good, then come back and shove it in has face.

I can already shove it in his face. I have more artistic talent than he will ever have. Go look at my first draft of Conan. Then go look at the first draft for Siege. Then tell me which one is graphically superior. mibi is in my opinion a hack. He has NOT shown me in any of his maps, that he even knows how to spell art. And, how he has even gotten 1 quench is beyond reason.
Normally I would just not comment on someones work if I did not like it, but I am being forced into this fight, and must act in self defense. I can sling the mud too if that is what is required. I think that there is NOT 1 map with the name mibi on it that is worth a nickle. As a matter of fact, I challenge him in this open forum to a duel. Lets see if we can just turn this whole silly argument into a friendly natured contest.

I just want his stalking of me to end, and if it takes me "shoving it in his face" as you put it, then that is fine with me.

[captainwalrus]

Naw, I have been dumped on a fair amount of time in my life, and I have come to take it pretty well. Maybe he went to far, but still, he knows what he is talking about. The Cohan map wan't that great. The jamaca could have worked, if you changed it to some other island but kept the same idea. If I were in your shoose, I would take a break from the foundry, at least from a map develpoment side, commenting is always good, and just work on stuff, read tutorials, become really good, then come back and shove it in has face.

I can already shove it in his face. I have more artistic talent than he will ever have.

yeah, no.... He can do this but you can't. You may have talent, but it has yet to fully develop into mapmaking talent. it takes time to transfer skills in photoshop and other art forms into something that can be made into a playable map. I am not saying you aren't talented, cause I can see you are, but he has more of the mapmaker's sense about what looks good where in order to keep the same overall theme and make it work.

But that isn't the point! The point is, you have to realize that, for now, you maps aren't as good as you think, and you need to use his criticism for motavation.

[Raskholnikov]

pork, captain - let's forget this line of orgument. it leads nowehere. how about focusing on gimli's questions? I think they are really important, I will try to address them as soon as I can (not today - work issues).

[Raskholnikov]

Then why not say what change you want? Rather than simply stating that you want change? Tell me and the community what you want to change exactly, how you want it to be done. What specific policies you want to see, how the process can be made more efficient, how can conversation been steered in the right direction?

ok gimli I'll get back to you on this as soon as I can, but obviously these are questions all members should ask themselves and try to contribute to. The very fact that we are having this conversation, however, shows I think that "change is in the air"... let's hope it's in the right direction

[WidowMakers]

Naw, I have been dumped on a fair amount of time in my life, and I have come to take it pretty well. Maybe he went to far, but still, he knows what he is talking about. The Cohan map wan't that great. The jamaca could have worked, if you changed it to some other island but kept the same idea. If I were in your shoose, I would take a break from the foundry, at least from a map develpoment side, commenting is always good, and just work on stuff, read tutorials, become really good, then come back and shove it in has face.

I can already shove it in his face. I have more artistic talent than he will ever have.

yeah, no.... He can do this but you can't. You may have talent, but it has yet to fully develop into mapmaking talent. it takes time to transfer skills in photoshop and other art forms into something that can be made into a playable map. I am not saying you aren't talented, cause I can see you are, but he has more of the mapmaker's sense about what looks good where in order to keep the same overall theme and make it work.

But that isn't the point! The point is, you have to realize that, for now, you maps aren't as good as you think, and you need to use his criticism for motavation.

100% agree.
Pork, think about this. How many maps have you tried? How many have re cieved criticism for not looking good? You went off and made a map making group in the past to get away from the foundy people who did not like your maps. you had an underwater map(your sig is based off that) that was never reallyvgood. yet in all your maps you seem to think that anyone you does not like it should learn to appreciate your good art.

But like captain said, maybe you are not as good as you think. That is not a bad thing. We all had to start somwhere.

But when a large percentage of people discussing your maps thinck they look bad, maybe they do.

WM

[Raskholnikov]

Thank you. This is a really valuable insight from someone with no axe to grind, who just observes the Foundry's goings-on from time to time. I will go out on a limb and bet this is representative of the opinion of the vast majority of CC members who just drop in once in a while to see what's going on and get out of here just as quickly because they have no interest to become part of the "infighting". That this perception may not be entirely accurate (see one of the best peer-to-peer review systems comment) is besides the point if most CC members see it like this and are repelled by it. Query: How do we keep one and get rid of the other? I don't have a magic solution, but I will try to deal with gimli's questions asap.

[Raskholnikov]

WM,

I think a slight dose of humility would serve us all well. No one is as good as they think. Pork certainly has a lot to learn about mapmaking, but so do we all in some area or another. if we could just leave the personal out of it and try to focus on the work, in a polite and constructive way, like you have done in such detail with 150 after Hijrah, I think we would go a long way towards meeting grifton's reservations re: getting sucked into the Foundry infighting.

[porkenbeans]

@CW,
That map that you referenced is not too shabby, although it has room for improvement. I have to disagree with you though. Yes I can do that, and better.
There are a lot of things that are good about that map. I have the knowledge and artistic talent to recognize just what they are. I admit that my interests and talent for the game play aspects of map making are far less advanced than mibi's. But that is why we have the Foundry. So that those with more experience can help those that have not gone through this rugged process already. Their knowledge is valuable, and if it were shared with others, it would be a good thing. But there is a big difference from wanting to share, and help others, and wanting to dictate to others, and rule the roost.
The idea of having a Foundry to help aspiring map makers, was a very good idea. I am afraid however, that it has veered from it's mission.

It has become a place where competing map makers argue over who is the best. But sometimes they must set aside their jostling, and band together. They need to stop outsiders from joining the game. To them this is just a matter survival within their game. It also allows them the opportunity to actually praise each other, because now they are playing as members of the All Star team.

I recognized this right off, when I first thought that I would try out map making. I read all of the information that the Foundry put out, er, well most of it anyways. I thought to myself, this really sounds great. Maybe I can put my artistic talents towards making a map that could actually make it into play at CC.
From what I read, I thought that there would be helping hands to guide me on this endeavor.
Boy was I misled. Instead of that helping hand, I was punched in the face. I had entered a world that was far from that pretty picture, that was propped up as the Foundry banner.

I thought to myself, I wonder how many others like me had this same kind of Foundry welcoming. I thought that maybe I could take it upon myself to start a group, that had, and would keep to those goals that the Foundry was first based on. Right off of the top I decided that I did not really want to run the group, just be a member of it, and pursue what I came to the Foundry in the first place for.

I shorty found that, the same kind of power tripping was present. The guy that I gave the rains to, started shouting orders, and the group that I worked so hard to form, was becoming a minime of the Foundry. I could have put more time and effort into fixing what was wrong, but like I said, I do not want to run a group. Just be a part of one that has the goals of the Foundry, at heart.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Truer words were never spoken.
If the Foundry truly wants to improve itself, They need only, go back to those goals that it was first built on. Find ways to realize those goals, and start by cutting out the cancerous growth that is the lust for power.
...You just can't have a helping hand if it is clinched like a fist. Start there.

[gimil]

Great porker, you have managed to say alot, without actually saying alot. You have did very little to give solid evidence of many of your theories, which i have to admit manyy i have not heard of before you mentioned them.

Prove what you have to say and suggest how best to fix it. For if we simple put forward opinions of what we see then we get locked into a battle of words that lead nowhere. No one is going to follow your opinion unless you prove it is there to follow.

p.s. I am still waiting for Raskholnikov to do this, like he promised.

[RjBeals]

sorry to side track as the conversation is starting to pickup, but mibi linked this to me, and asked if I would post.

I can already shove it in his [mibi's] face. I have more artistic talent than he will ever have. Go look at my first draft of Conan. Then go look at the first draft for Siege. Then tell me which one is graphically superior. mibi is in my opinion a hack. He has NOT shown me in any of his maps, that he even knows how to spell art. And, how he has even gotten 1 quench is beyond reason.

54 Steps to Perfection: A study in the refinement of conquer club map making.

[Raskholnikov]

Ok, that was not very diplomatic, or nice, can we please not start it all over again and stick to the issues raised by gimli? Sorry, I need to rush to work - yes, Real Life does sometimes interfere! LOL - but I will get back to this thread as soon as I can, Be nice to each other 'till then, please!

[porkenbeans]

sorry to side track as the conversation is starting to pickup, but mibi linked this to me, and asked if I would post.

I can already shove it in his [mibi's] face. I have more artistic talent than he will ever have. Go look at my first draft of Conan. Then go look at the first draft for Siege. Then tell me which one is graphically superior. mibi is in my opinion a hack. He has NOT shown me in any of his maps, that he even knows how to spell art. And, how he has even gotten 1 quench is beyond reason.

54 Steps to Perfection: A study in the refinement of conquer club map making.

First, Why did he not post it himself ?
Second, I still think that his first draft is terrible.

Third, The final version is passable, Although I could do much better.

But, that was not the reason that I mentioned it. If you go back and read the post and others that pertain to this topic, you will see that I was using this as an example of why you should not judge a projects worthiness on the first draft. I was pointing out that mibi's outrageous post in my Conan thread was destructive and not CONstructive in nature. And if there were a post in the early stages of Siege, like the one he made in Conan, there may never have been a Siege.

[the.killing.44]

Third, The final version is passable, Although I could do much better.

@CW,
That map that you referenced is not too shabby, although it has room for improvement. I have to disagree with you though. Yes I can do that, and better.

Quit saying so and do better. You've already posted something verifiable in your claim that you were banned for a week. It was checked and you did not receive any such ban to the extent of any mods' knowledge. You had no evidence beyond your own plea. So, you've already given people evidence to think that you cannot do better and we should not believe you, in the way your maps have been responded to by members, and your claim of a ban. Quit saying and start doing.

The same applies to your complaints about the Foundry:

Great porker, you have managed to say alot, without actually saying alot. You have did very little to give solid evidence of many of your theories, which i have to admit manyy i have not heard of before you mentioned them.

Prove what you have to say and suggest how best to fix it. For if we simple put forward opinions of what we see then we get locked into a battle of words that lead nowhere. No one is going to follow your opinion unless you prove it is there to follow.

p.s. I am still waiting for Raskholnikov to do this, like he promised.

[porkenbeans]

Great porker, you have managed to say alot, without actually saying alot. You have did very little to give solid evidence of many of your theories, which i have to admit manyy i have not heard of before you mentioned them.

Prove what you have to say and suggest how best to fix it. For if we simple put forward opinions of what we see then we get locked into a battle of words that lead nowhere. No one is going to follow your opinion unless you prove it is there to follow.

p.s. I am still waiting for Raskholnikov to do this, like he promised.

The topic of this tread is about opinions, not about evidence, or proving what I say, or trying to fix it. I gave my opinion. I laid out my experiences that I have had with the Foundry. I do not believe that the Foundry will ever change for the better, until those in charge hear from people like me that have not had a very good experience here. From people that have been run off by this game that goes on. You will not find out the truth about what is wrong with the Foundry from those that are on the All Star team. The game is fine just the way it is as far as they are concerned. This thread asked for opinions. ...be careful what you ask for.

[porkenbeans]

Third, The final version is passable, Although I could do much better.

@CW,
That map that you referenced is not too shabby, although it has room for improvement. I have to disagree with you though. Yes I can do that, and better.

Quit saying so and do better. You've already posted something verifiable in your claim that you were banned for a week. It was checked and you did not receive any such ban to the extent of any mods' knowledge. You had no evidence beyond your own plea. So, you've already given people evidence to think that you cannot do better and we should not believe you, in the way your maps have been responded to by members, and your claim of a ban. Quit saying and start doing.

The same applies to your complaints about the Foundry:

Great porker, you have managed to say alot, without actually saying alot. You have did very little to give solid evidence of many of your theories, which i have to admit manyy i have not heard of before you mentioned them.

Prove what you have to say and suggest how best to fix it. For if we simple put forward opinions of what we see then we get locked into a battle of words that lead nowhere. No one is going to follow your opinion unless you prove it is there to follow.

p.s. I am still waiting for Raskholnikov to do this, like he promised.

Priceless, I just imagined being banned ?

[gimil]

Great porker, you have managed to say alot, without actually saying alot. You have did very little to give solid evidence of many of your theories, which i have to admit manyy i have not heard of before you mentioned them.

Prove what you have to say and suggest how best to fix it. For if we simple put forward opinions of what we see then we get locked into a battle of words that lead nowhere. No one is going to follow your opinion unless you prove it is there to follow.

p.s. I am still waiting for Raskholnikov to do this, like he promised.

The topic of this tread is about opinions, not about evidence, or proving what I say, or trying to fix it. I gave my opinion. I laid out my experiences that I have had with the Foundry. I do not believe that the Foundry will ever change for the better, until those in charge hear from people like me that have not had a very good experience here. From people that have been run off by this game that goes on. You will not find out the truth about what is wrong with the Foundry from those that are on the All Star team. The game is fine just the way it is as far as they are concerned. This thread asked for opinions. ...be careful what you ask for.

I then, in the evolutionary nature of this thread, asked you to state some evidence about your concerns so that we could further investigate, better understand and try to collectively come up with a solution to the problems that have been mentioned. If you don't want to do what is needed to help that is fine, it isn't your duty. But there is no point complaining about it hoping to make it better if you aren't going to help prove your point with sufficient information.

[porkenbeans]

Great porker, you have managed to say alot, without actually saying alot. You have did very little to give solid evidence of many of your theories, which i have to admit manyy i have not heard of before you mentioned them.

Prove what you have to say and suggest how best to fix it. For if we simple put forward opinions of what we see then we get locked into a battle of words that lead nowhere. No one is going to follow your opinion unless you prove it is there to follow.

p.s. I am still waiting for Raskholnikov to do this, like he promised.

The topic of this tread is about opinions, not about evidence, or proving what I say, or trying to fix it. I gave my opinion. I laid out my experiences that I have had with the Foundry. I do not believe that the Foundry will ever change for the better, until those in charge hear from people like me that have not had a very good experience here. From people that have been run off by this game that goes on. You will not find out the truth about what is wrong with the Foundry from those that are on the All Star team. The game is fine just the way it is as far as they are concerned. This thread asked for opinions. ...be careful what you ask for.

I then, in the evolutionary nature of this thread, asked you to state some evidence about your concerns so that we could further investigate, better understand and try to collectively come up with a solution to the problems that have been mentioned. If you don't want to do what is needed to help that is fine, it isn't your duty. But there is no point complaining about it hoping to make it better if you aren't going to help prove your point with sufficient information.

What exactly do you want to know ? I gave my opinion, and I even backed it up with just a few examples of why my opinion is what it is.

[gimil]

Great porker, you have managed to say alot, without actually saying alot. You have did very little to give solid evidence of many of your theories, which i have to admit manyy i have not heard of before you mentioned them.

Prove what you have to say and suggest how best to fix it. For if we simple put forward opinions of what we see then we get locked into a battle of words that lead nowhere. No one is going to follow your opinion unless you prove it is there to follow.

p.s. I am still waiting for Raskholnikov to do this, like he promised.

The topic of this tread is about opinions, not about evidence, or proving what I say, or trying to fix it. I gave my opinion. I laid out my experiences that I have had with the Foundry. I do not believe that the Foundry will ever change for the better, until those in charge hear from people like me that have not had a very good experience here. From people that have been run off by this game that goes on. You will not find out the truth about what is wrong with the Foundry from those that are on the All Star team. The game is fine just the way it is as far as they are concerned. This thread asked for opinions. ...be careful what you ask for.

I then, in the evolutionary nature of this thread, asked you to state some evidence about your concerns so that we could further investigate, better understand and try to collectively come up with a solution to the problems that have been mentioned. If you don't want to do what is needed to help that is fine, it isn't your duty. But there is no point complaining about it hoping to make it better if you aren't going to help prove your point with sufficient information.

What exactly do you want to know ? I gave my opinion, and I even backed it up with just a few examples of why my opinion is what it is.

...but I don't remember you giving a general suggestion as to how to deal with the problems that your opinion has created. That is what I meant to communicate. Sorry if I wasn't clearer.