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150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:18 am

natty_dread wrote:
Yes, i feel for you re your proteine map. I think the problem is it lacks a "Story": what is the "purpose" of the fight? to build a proteine? to destroy one? something else? to show which proteine is more powerful?

I think for players to feel some kind of satisfaction at the end of a game and be willing to invest 20 minutes or time in a game or whatever it takes, something "cool" must happen at the end. Like the (in)famous Titanic line "I'm the King of the World!". I know it sounds stupid, but most people play these games because they get a "kick" out ouf it, or love the maps or a mix of both.


And yet, there are maps like Crossword, Chinese checkers, or Poker club. How did they ever get quenched?

Without de-railing the topic, a little Foundry history so you can help put things in perspective: Crossword is one of the oldest maps---put up before there was even a Foundry system. Chinese Checkers was also still pretty early in the Foundry history, 2007, when standards were different (plus it was unique at the time, when considering the other maps that were available). Poker Club is the most recent---and while it doesn't necessarily have a story, it introduced some unique and inventive game play, so it is propped up by that and it's decent graphics.


--Andy
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby porkenbeans on Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:52 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
Yes, i feel for you re your proteine map. I think the problem is it lacks a "Story": what is the "purpose" of the fight? to build a proteine? to destroy one? something else? to show which proteine is more powerful?

I think for players to feel some kind of satisfaction at the end of a game and be willing to invest 20 minutes or time in a game or whatever it takes, something "cool" must happen at the end. Like the (in)famous Titanic line "I'm the King of the World!". I know it sounds stupid, but most people play these games because they get a "kick" out ouf it, or love the maps or a mix of both.


And yet, there are maps like Crossword, Chinese checkers, or Poker club. How did they ever get quenched?

Without de-railing the topic, a little Foundry history so you can help put things in perspective: Crossword is one of the oldest maps---put up before there was even a Foundry system. Chinese Checkers was also still pretty early in the Foundry history, 2007, when standards were different (plus it was unique at the time, when considering the other maps that were available). Poker Club is the most recent---and while it doesn't necessarily have a story, it introduced some unique and inventive game play, so it is propped up by that and it's decent graphics.


--Andy
I might add that Poker is very popular, and is a rapidly growing industry, both as a spectator sport, and as an internet commodity. Not to mention the thousands of Poker rooms, that are springing up in bars and night clubs all across America. And I suspect, the world, for that matter.


8-)
Last edited by porkenbeans on Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby natty dread on Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:18 pm

About the island scene at the bottom of the map. I chose it because it was the best picture that I could find that fit the space. I am not opposed to changing it. I am open to look at any alternatives. I am not glued to the idea of it being a photograph. It could be an illustration of some kind. I would like to stick with the "beach" theme, but outside of that, I am very open to looking at any photographs, sketches or paintings that you artisans and photographers out there might want to offer up.


umm... wrong thread?
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby porkenbeans on Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:39 pm

natty_dread wrote:
About the island scene at the bottom of the map. I chose it because it was the best picture that I could find that fit the space. I am not opposed to changing it. I am open to look at any alternatives. I am not glued to the idea of it being a photograph. It could be an illustration of some kind. I would like to stick with the "beach" theme, but outside of that, I am very open to looking at any photographs, sketches or paintings that you artisans and photographers out there might want to offer up.


umm... wrong thread?
Doh #-o
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby Raskholnikov on Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:56 am

The crown and steering wheel fit fairly well for capitals and ports. The stars could certainly work for religious sites, though they're not the first thing that leap to mind when I think 'religion.'

Well I can't really start using crosses and moons and such - it would complicate things and also attract unncessary controversy - what would I use for Jerusalem? If you have a better idea, id be happy to consider it.


The explosions are weaker -- gunpowder weapons wouldn't be a gleam in China's eye for at least half a century, and wouldn't make their way that far west for half a millennium. Plus I just don't find the explosion icon to be visually appealing.

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For those of us who grew up with Asterix and Obelix, that's a sign of a big fight not a gunpowder explosion ;) Again, if you have a better suggestion...

The marbles, though, are the worst. They don't project the idea of a city, they don't evoke anything in the historical period, and worst of all, they don't fit in with the other icons.

Well the marbles project the area of control of each city - beyond it, it's the forest or the desert, where Kings and caliphs and princes and amirs barely control the roads, nevermind the surroundings. I don't know why a two-dymensional circle with color in the middle would be closer to representing a city than a three-dymensional looking glass type view of a city. Again, for those of us who are friends of Asterix, this is not an issue...


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I do like the roads. The roads and the font both work well.

Thanks. Pork did a great job here!


I suppose if you're challenging any of my notions, it's the one that a map's graphical style should have something to do with its subject matter, which I'm not against in general, but for a map this focused on a particular historical time and scene, you two are going to have to put together something a bit more impressive than this to convince me.

Well the artistic direction here is to imagine a view of the region from high above... from where you can see just the lights of cities and roads... a bit like this:


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coupled of course with an 'hommage" to idrisi's map and the arabic cartographic world view of the times by having the orientation of the map inverted.


Hopefully once we add the legend and flags it will all be better.

Thanks for your comments and help. Btw, cool map on your wall! Totally love it! ;)
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby porkenbeans on Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:43 pm

Raskholnikov wrote:Hi Pork,

First of all, let me tell you that overall, i love it! i think you're going totally in the right direction and I agree with most changes you made.

A few comments:

1. Please correct what I indicated in red and white in terms or road connections and names.
2. You gave lower case letters to the Port, Capital and Religious site part of all city codes. I think they should be capitalised.
3. The typeface for all city codes is, I think, much too big. Check the New World Map. I'd make the letters smaller, thinner, crisper, without white highlight around them. As they are, they take way too much space and kinda overpower the map itself. The codes must be as discrete as possible while still legible.
4. The roads are great - but i would make the bevel darker, so that the connections can be as clear as possible. Now they sometimes tend to get too morphed in the background.
5. Please add the map title and full legend with symbols explanations, bonus structure etc as in the map i sent you.
6. Oh and please, add Sicily in a way which makes it look like the rest of the land areas around it. Right now Palermo is floating.... :lol:

Once these changes are done, I can add the Empires' flags and we can have a complete, new version of the map to put up in the first post and open to comments. i can't wait!

Again, thank you for all your persevernce, hard work and great ideas and creative input!

R

2.) With all the lettering and abbreviations going on, the map can be a bit confusing. So I thought that, to make it more clear, I would Cap all the Kingdom names in the abbreviations, and use lower case for cities, ports, shrines, and battles. Otherwise, they are melded together, and confusion ensues.

3.) yes I agree that the text should be as small as possible, and should blend in rather than stand out. There is just too much of it to do otherwise. It would simply take over the map. I used a 16 pix. font, when it is scaled down for the small version, I think that it will be of minimal size to be legible. As for the glow coupled with the drop shadow. Well that is an attempt at making the text larger without making it seem so, and keep with the goal of making it blend in. My thoughts on this, is this- With the text a similar color to the background, (to make it blend in), the glow is needed for contrast, so you can read it. and the drop shadow does two things. It contrasts the glow and raises the text up. All this together allows for the text to actually be larger, but not seem so. And at the same time helps the text to blend in. Without this treatment the text would need to be either a very light or very dark color, and that means that it would stand out instead of blend in. I did a lot of experimenting before I came up with this particular treatment. Everything else was either too contrasting, which made it stand out too much, or was too blended in, which made it very hard to read.
I will go scale down the map to what the small version will be and post it. Then we can decide if the text could be made smaller or not.

4.) I have the opacity turned way down on the roads. I will pump it up some to see if you like it better or not. The roads, like the text is very overpowering presence on the map. I have tried my best to make them both blend in as much as possible, and still make them legible. Its all about the fine tuning at this stage.

Check, and will do on the other directives, that you mentioned. ;)
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby Raskholnikov on Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:00 pm

Great job Pork. Can't wait to see the next draft. Please make sure you add the legend including the explanation of each symbol like I did in a previous map, and integrate it so it fits the theme and artistic direction. i leave it to you do decide how. Once you have it all done I will add the flags for all the Empires and update the top post.

Many thanks, as usual, for all your contributions!!

R
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby Evil DIMwit on Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:14 pm

Raskholnikov wrote:The crown and steering wheel fit fairly well for capitals and ports. The stars could certainly work for religious sites, though they're not the first thing that leap to mind when I think 'religion.'

Well I can't really start using crosses and moons and such - it would complicate things and also attract unncessary controversy - what would I use for Jerusalem? If you have a better idea, id be happy to consider it.



I suppose I'd suggest something on the order of this fellow:
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to suggest the sort of decorational features you're likely to find in houses of worship all over the place. It's a little fancier than the star (though, once again, a star is certainly adequate).

I see what you mean about the battle symbol -- I suppose it'll do if you don't find anything better.

Raskholnikov wrote:Well the marbles project the area of control of each city - beyond it, it's the forest or the desert, where Kings and caliphs and princes and amirs barely control the roads, nevermind the surroundings. I don't know why a two-dymensional circle with color in the middle would be closer to representing a city than a three-dymensional looking glass type view of a city.


It's because a city's sphere of influence isn't actually a sphere -- the city couldn't very far over or very far under. Three dimensional thinking at the time extended to the height of a wall and the depth of a grave. I think if you look at your own Asterix picture you'll find that (A) the magnifying isn't a glass sphere but a glass disc, and that (B) the glass doesn't represent the village -- the village is represented by buildings and walls. In fact, I'd put more emphasis on the city's walls than on what's inside them, because those were the most significant ways of controlling and defining a city. In that light, a ring is a much better symbol of a city than a sphere.


And while we're mentioning forests and deserts, how about a little landscape? The whole world isn't a drab beige, is it?
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby Raskholnikov on Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:52 pm

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm certainly open to changing the spheres to something else if that is the overwhelming opinion. But let's see Porks next completed draft first. As to the continents, I had thought of something like this:

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The problem is as follows: if we give the background this realistic multi-color tone, and superimpose on it roads symbols and codes, will anything remain intelligible at all? If you look up the thread such an attempt was shot down in no uncertain terms by Andy.... Again, I am open to changing the background if you have a suggestion as to how it can be done without rendering the map unclear and illegible.
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby porkenbeans on Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:15 pm

I think that the "marbles" fit, in more ways than one. First they do act as a sort of magnifying glass, to some extent. And much more so in my next version. Magnifying glasses are used commonly in cartography to highlight and/or enlarge a certain area or thing. Second they also remind us that this is a game, and marbles are just about the the most common game pieces you will find anywhere throughout time. ;)
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby porkenbeans on Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:05 pm

Click image to enlarge.
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Click image to enlarge.
image

Starting on the legend now. Just wanted to show the progress so far. I also included a small version mock up, so that the size of the text, can be gauged.
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby Raskholnikov on Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:36 pm

OMG!

Stunning! I'm in Love!

I adore what you did with the cities!

Just a few comments:

1. Don't forget Sicily;

2. The Eastern Roman Empire Star is not labeled: Rr;

3. The Lombard port is not labeled: Lp;

4. Please label all the Kievan Rus cities; and

5. It's Al Andalus Caliphate.

Thank you!

R
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby porkenbeans on Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:39 pm

Raskholnikov wrote:OMG!

Stunning! I'm in Love!

I adore what you did with the cities!

Just a few comments:

1. Don't forget Sicily;

2. The Eastern Roman Empire Star is not labeled: Rr;

3. The Lombard port is not labeled: Lp;

4. Please label all the Kievan Rus cities; and

5. It's Al Andalus Caliphate.

Thank you!

R
Oh, I must have had those labels turned off for some reason when I saved it. #-o
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby porkenbeans on Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:25 pm

If you liked the last version, I think you will be floored by the next version. Prepare yourself to be WOWED. ;)

It will make the last version look like a rough draft. :lol:
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby captainwalrus on Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:43 pm

UPDATE...THE FIRST...POST!!!!!!

also, it looks really busy. Maybe make the town symbols less cool looking and more simple. Also, you can make the text smaller.
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby porkenbeans on Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:50 pm

Rask is waiting on me to complete the next version, that WILL be complete with the legend, and all the other requirements. Hang tight, or loose, I should have it ready within the next day or so. Or maybe I will pull an all niter, and finish it tonight.
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby Raskholnikov on Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:59 pm

Yey! Can't wait!
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby porkenbeans on Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:55 am

;)
Click image to enlarge.
image
version 6

Well here is what I have come up with so far. I have been working all day on it, and I think that I need to leave it alone and not look at it for a couple of days. It is not quite where I want it yet, but we need something to update the first post before someone has a cow. lol.

I have all of the requirements included, I hope.

I have made a few changes that involve the labeling. I have tried to streamline it, and nixed some redundancies. Like excluding the p, c, R and such from the territory labels. The icon is already there so they really are not needed in the label. Now we have just the abbreviation of the kingdom and its number.

Also made Jerus. its own color.

made the city icon a little larger.

Did not include the Auto-deploy feature. I think that too many maps are using it. If you want it back It can easily be added back on.

Re-drew the roads

darkened the earth to a chocolate/bronze color to make it seem more like space.

added the moon for depth, and to enlarge the legend area a bit.


Anyways, we have something to update with. I will try to not look at this map for a couple of days, so that when I come back to it, my eyes will be fresh. So, any and all suggestions and comments will be most welcomed. :D
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby wcaclimbing on Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:58 am

UPDATE...THE FIRST...POST!!!!!!


And I agree with what others have said, the outer space graphics really detract from the overall theme of the map. You are describing a historical event, but you're putting it in a sci-fi setting, making things really confusing.
If I didn't know what you were trying to make, I would assume it was some kind of futuristic religious fantasy war, not a historical event that actually happened.
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby Raskholnikov on Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:19 am

To paraphrase Q from the Next Generation Finale (All Good Things...):

How little do you mortals understand time. Must you be so linear, wcaclimbing? You'd like me to connect the dots for you, lead you from A to B to C, so that your puny mind could comprehend? How boring...


Just kidding about your puny mind, of course. Don't take it personally I don't mean it, it was just part of the quote. But it's 1 am at night and I don't feel like spending a lot of time connecting the dots. I'll just try to see if I can update the first post then get some sleep. I'll come back to the "vision thing" another time.

Thanks for your comments.
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby natty dread on Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:03 am

The first post is still not updated... someone is going to pop a vein in the forehead for this :D
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby Raskholnikov on Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:32 am

It is now. Thanks for your patience, everyone! :roll:
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby Raskholnikov on Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:34 am

Hi Pork,

You did an outstanding job. I totally agree with most of your changes - except the legend ones. I'll reply in more detail later - no time right now.

Once again, great work! Thanks for all your hard work!

R

PS. I updated the first post!
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby isaiah40 on Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:30 am

The star for Jerusalem in the legend does not match the star on the map. You have the Jerusalem star down at B5 not H1.
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Re: 150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

Postby Raskholnikov on Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:15 am

Are you sure? Did you check the map at the top of this post? B5 is a battle, not even a city.
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