tobinov [Cleared/Warned]

[hotpotmike]

<DELETGame 5583362E me> hotpotmike
PLACE THE NAME OF THE ACCUSED IN THE SUBJECT LINE!!!

Replace or delete any xxxxxxx with the appropriate information.
Delete any accusations or entries which do not apply.

Be sure before you accuse someone!
Since early in this game I have been attacked exclusively by tobinov. He is not interested in winning but only to eliminate me, claiming he is upset by me chatting too much in the Game Chat. I have not enjoyed this game and it is unreasonable actions like his that really turns me off from CC. BTW, I am not Chinese, but a Canadian living in China. I am not specifically suggesting this may affect my games, but I do wish I could display my countries flag.

Accused:tobinov

xxxxxxx
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The accused are suspected of:

Being Multis
Conducting Secret Diplomacy
Severe PM Abuse
Other: <Explanation>



Game number(s):

[game]xxxxxxx[/game]
[game]xxxxxxx[/game]
[game]xxxxxxx[/game]
[game]xxxxxxx[/game]



Comments:[Game][/Game]

[TheForgivenOne]

Accused:
tobinov


The accused are suspected of:


Other: Unsportsmanslike play (?)



Game number(s):

Game 5583362


Comments:Since early in this game I have been attacked exclusively by tobinov. He is not interested in winning but only to eliminate me, claiming he is upset by me chatting too much in the Game Chat. I have not enjoyed this game and it is unreasonable actions like his that really turns me off from CC. BTW, I am not Chinese, but a Canadian living in China. I am not specifically suggesting this may affect my games, but I do wish I could display my countries flag.

God i must have no life, in here fixing links. Anyways, whole thing fixed

[chemefreak]

Stupid. Next.

[tennisizfun]

actually, I too, find people that dictates too much a bit annoying, even when its a teamed game.
and this is in fact a FFA with decently ranked players.

just rate him a 1 for fair play later.

[Darthvadar]

Stupid. Next.

[jammyjames]

no point with a case like that, the mods really wont waste their time on it...

[DJPatrick]

hell, I almost reached thru the puta screen and throttled you...all is fair in love and Risk but really...tobinov's reaction was much milder than mine and can only imagine what some of the neanderthals wld have launched at you...
not christian yself by a long shot but "As you sow, so shall ye reap ounds appropriate"..
Didn't know about the Flag of Convenience issue and maybe the mods could consider a Flag of origin option but possibly being perceived as Chinese had nothing to do with tobinov's irritation nor reaction as far as can be ascertained and below the level of a gentleman to raise it as a red herring...
BTW...stumbled across your wall and perhaps secret diplomacy should also be looked at???

[Snowgun]

Stupid. Next.

LOLERSKATES!

Sums it up.

[Hsur]

BTW...stumbled across your wall and perhaps secret diplomacy should also be looked at???

This report is kinda lame
Also........If your gonna accuse someone of cheating, you better not be cheating yourself.

hotpotmike 's wall:
Actually I'd like to move north thru Europe and into N America - good opportunity for me to take over there. Hope that fits with your plans. I suppose we're getting a bit close to secret diplomacy here so we should watch it. I'll go look at the struth message.

by veronius
on Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:41 pm

veronius 's wall:
ya ok you can go north, i would appreciate if you also set a small blockade against orange[ tobinov ] in east europe, he is after me only, for no good reason

by hotpotmike
on Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:07 am

[king sam]

Aright...*sighs* here we go.

If it is tobinov's prerogative in this game to do attack you more often then not because he was agitated with your dictation in chat or game play then he is afforded that right. Often you will find that you can actually put yourself in bad positions and cause yourself to lose games by being to vocal in chat and offering alliances as frequent as you have done so far in this game. For the record he has attacked you 19 times and teal 11 times, as well as everyone else several times, not enough play to warrant him throwing a game.

Advice:

A. Don't be so vocal next time
B. Rate and Foe him as you see fit. By Foe'ing him you wont have to see his game chat anymore or play with him in future games, and you will have the opportunity to Rate him once you are done with the game.

And he nor any other player had a problem with your origin of flag. You were the one who brought that to everyone's attention. As far as getting it changed I doubt you could, create a thread in the sugs & bugs forum asking if it can be an option rather then pulled from your IP scheme.

tobinov is Cleared of wrong doing.

Investigating your actions in other games as the diplomacy that is posted on your wall.

King Sam

[Orwell]

LOL - this is funny - what exactly did I do wrong?

For the record: I do not care where this guy is from, who he is, what he does, or what flag flies in his profile - I just find him holy annoying in chat.

Anyway, this is clear retaliation. Thanks for being objective.

[veronius]

Accused: Tobinov

The accused are suspected of:
Other: Tobinov is not "suspected," but is demonstrably guilty, of falsely accusing me and hotpotmike of forming a secret alliance in game Game 5583362, based on an exchange of messages on our walls (mine and that of hotpotmike) after the alliance was announced in-game. The wall discussion did not cover anything that was not previously discussed in-game. Tobinov made his accusation in the in-game chat and on my wall.

Game number Game 5583362

Comments: This is probably beneath any moderator's attention, but Tobinov has taken to calling me a liar after I denied - and disproved - his allegations. He has also induced one other player in the game to accept his claims at face value. And, mysteriously, a third player (not from the game in question), Hsur, popped up on my wall at this precise time with a "friendly warning" about not cheating. Tobinov denies he brought Hsur in, but this denial is implausible to say the least.

(What's more, only after he issued his "friendly warning" did Hsur even bother to ask about the timing of the messages in question, upon which the whole question of cheating hinges!)

Still, I'm not complaining about Hsur here. Tobinov is the problem.

I admit that discussing an alliance on our walls was poor judgment. But the fact is that our alliance was not secret, it was announced before the wall discussions started, there was nothing in the wall discussions that had not previously been covered in the in-game chat, and finally the discussion was not initiated by me: five of the six messages in question were from hotpotmike to me, which hardly constitutes a "discussion" at all in any meaningful sense.

[the.killing.44]

Aww, he called you a liar? Poor thing.

hotpotmike starts a thread, in which he posts your game number. From the game number, Hsur goes to your wall. On your wall, Hsur sees you've engaged in illegal activity. Hsur gives you a friendly warning.

Pfft.

[king sam]

Tobinov is cleared of wrong doing here as well as in the other claim. I am merging this with the other report.

For the record another player can accuse you of having a secret diplomacy if he likes, he can call out movements and troop counts in a fog game, and even lie about those. All forms of diplomacy and tactics that can help sway a movement in his/her favor to turn the dynamic of the game. Now should you repeatedly take part in actions like this, no, unless you like poor ratings and being on a lot of Foe lists.

But there is no violation of any rules for him to speak out in game chat or in a claim in here on how his perception of a situation is. If that were the case then Warnings would be handed out like crazy for all the false accusations that come through C&A weekly.

As for the diplomacy actions between you 2 in your game, at this time it is being looked into. I understand and see the time stamp between the acknowledged truce in the game chat and all the wall banter between you two. But we are currently coming to a consensus if this is a violation of policy seeing as we ask all chat/contact about a game to be done in the game chat area, and its quite obvious you guys weren't doing this. Please be patient and we will be back to you shortly.

[king sam]

hotpotmike & veronius have been Warned for Secret Diplomacy.

Any form of diplomatic discussion between opponents must be posted in the game chat in English or in a language that all opponents understand. Diplomacy includes, but is not limited to: proposing truces, negotiating alliances, and coordinating assaults.

http://www.conquerclub.com/public.php?mode=rules

King Sam

[Hsur]

I was bored that day........called into work sick.
Anyways, it was just a friendly reminder, not a warning, as I am in no way any kind of authority figure here at CC.

[Orwell]

Why does it now appear as though I have been warned (implying some sort of wrong doing) when I have been cleared and my accusers have been warned?

I know this may be a small detail to the rest of you but these guys are dragging me through the mud for speaking up and I would like it to be clear I did nothing wrong. Thanks.

[veronius]

Hang on. It seems we're now being accused of something different. As king sam says:

we ask all chat/contact about a game to be done in the game chat area, and its quite obvious you guys weren't doing this

Huh? I thought we were being accused of secret diplomacy??? For the record, the rule goes like this:

Any form of diplomatic discussion between opponents must be posted in the game chat in English or in a language that all opponents understand. Diplomacy includes, but is not limited to: proposing truces, negotiating alliances, and coordinating assaults. Secret diplomacy can be hard to prove, but if you suspect it you should leave the players in question appropriate ratings. If you feel certain about players engaging in secret diplomacy consider reporting them in the Cheating & Abuse Reports forum by posting a new topic.

All of our diplomatic discussion WAS conducted on in-game chat. Neither Tobinov nor anyone else has been able to cite anything at all that was mentioned on our walls that was not previously revealed/agreed to in the in-game chat. If we were being secret, show me what we were being secret about.

In other words, where's the evidence?

I've said before that repeating points from in-game chat on our walls was bad judgment, because it can look like secret diplomacy... and other players can make hay with it. I didn't realize until now just how much hay could be made, but hey, Tobinov is putting in a lot of work on this, and obviously finding fertile ground.

It seems you can get warned for secret diplomacy in this game without actually engaging in it.

At the end of the day, though, king sam seems to have it right:

For the record another player can accuse you of having a secret diplomacy if he likes, he can call out movements and troop counts in a fog game, and even lie about those. All forms of diplomacy and tactics that can help sway a movement in his/her favor to turn the dynamic of the game. Now should you repeatedly take part in actions like this, no, unless you like poor ratings and being on a lot of Foe lists.

But there is no violation of any rules for him to speak out in game chat or in a claim in here on how his perception of a situation is. If that were the case then Warnings would be handed out like crazy for all the false accusations that come through C&A weekly.

So my bad. My mistake in submitting a report of a false accusation.

To quote Tobinov:

I know this may be a small detail to the rest of you but these guys are dragging me through the mud for speaking up and I would like it to be clear I did nothing wrong.

I know how you feel, brother!

[Evil Semp]

Why does it now appear as though I have been warned (implying some sort of wrong doing) when I have been cleared and my accusers have been warned?

I know this may be a small detail to the rest of you but these guys are dragging me through the mud for speaking up and I would like it to be clear I did nothing wrong. Thanks.

tobinov just to clear things up you DID NOT receive a warning.

[the.killing.44]

In other words, where's the evidence?

On your wall…

I will suggest you move enough troops to survive there, i will not attack Brazil

by hotpotmike
on October 12th, 2009, 11:33 pm

Another option is you plow into east Europe then I follow into Europe going north

by hotpotmike
on October 12th, 2009, 10:43 pm

Sorry about the extra army in Mauratinia but i would rather do it now instead of next turn. I want to move into Europe also going north in England, then Iceland for a card. Any problem with that ?

by hotpotmike
on October 12th, 2009, 8:55 pm

okay i open a path to europe, you go through and leave none behind in africa. you will have a new theatre to operate in and i will have some relief from tobinovs constant harassment, i do not get why he hates me so much. WE Must agree on a truce-maybe 3 rounds peace between us at those 2 water crossings. i will push orange back a little now then begin my back-up and be ready for you to go through next turn. I expect you to honor this truce and allow me to have N africa back when you get through- I must say the message by struth before this one bothers me a little, any comments on that ?

by hotpotmike
on October 12th, 2009, 6:39 pm

[king sam]

Game Chat
2009-10-11 00:07:09 - hotpotmike offers truce to veronius with no assualts between Africa and South America
2009-10-12 05:45:00 - hotpotmike offers offer to veronius again
2009-10-12 12:29:10 - veronius agrees in game chat
2009-10-13 08:13:11 - 2009-10-13 18:38:00 hotpotmike goes on about moving armies into Mogolia for him and that he couldnt make a dent on France.

veronius's wall

2009-10-12 18:39:00 - hotpotmikeokay: "i open a path to europe, you go through and leave none behind in africa. you will have a new theatre to operate in and i will have some relief from tobinovs constant harassment, i do not get why he hates me so much. WE Must agree on a truce-maybe 3 rounds peace between us at those 2 water crossings. i will push orange back a little now then begin my back-up and be ready for you to go through next turn. I expect you to honor this truce and allow me to have N africa back when you get through- I must say the message by struth before this one bothers me a little, any comments on that ?"

Game Chat
2009-10-14 17:54:30 - veronius asks how long truce will last in game chat

This is just one example to showcase data that was talked between you 2 via Walls. The declaration of the truce was pronounced in chat before any wall contact was done, but information such as how long the truce will last or aggressions towards orange weren't discussed in the game chat prior to the wall comment I cited above. Therefore you 2 have been found in violation of the Secret Diplomacy rule.

I would highly recommend for all who have followed this case to from now on only conduct game strategy talk of games they are actively in with others in the game chat window. As for you 2 this is your first infraction, it is just a Warning, take it as such, learn from it and don't repeat the same mistakes or you will be held accountable.

King Sam

[veronius]

Round and round we go... sigh. The example is from hotpot, not from me, king sam. So how am I at fault??

That goes for you too, the.killing.44. Those messages aren't from me, and I never responded to them! Please explain how that makes me guilty of secret diplomacy.

[the.killing.44]

Round and round we go... sigh. The example is from hotpot, not from me, king sam. So how am I at fault??

That goes for you too, the.killing.44. Those messages aren't from me, and I never responded to them! Please explain how that makes me guilty of secret diplomacy.

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=322588

Yeah, you did reply.

Actually I'd like to move north thru Europe and into N America - good opportunity for me to take over there. Hope that fits with your plans. I suppose we're getting a bit close to secret diplomacy here so we should watch it. I'll go look at the struth message.

by veronius
on October 13th, 2009, 12:41 am


You knowingly engaged. As soon as you reply, there's not getting "close." You're doing it or not.

[veronius]

But my move through Europe was already discussed in the open on game chat. So how is that secret? The answer: IT ISN'T!

I said we were getting close to secret diplomacy, not that we were actually doing it.

[king sam]

*sighs louder*

you were both discussing in game options that were not present in the game until later if at all.

I did more then I had to by explaining the position in which the judgement was made. Bottom line is all chat involving players in an active game shall be done in game chat in a language all users in that game can understand. And by the 4 plus pages on your wall and the few on his wall its fairly obvious you guys weren't abiding by this rule.

If you want to take this further feel free to open an E-Ticket about the issue, but its pretty cut and dry. Locking this topic as it has served its purpose. Feel free to appeal via an E-Ticket.

King Sam