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Riddles and Puzzles

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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby YoursFalsey on Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:40 am

Since this topic has been quiet for a few days, a new puzzle.

Jerrod the Jeweler is going into a new sideline of assaying ore samples. He intends to weigh ore samples with an old fashioned balance scale, placing the samples on one side and his weights on the other side until a balance is achieved. If he wishes to be able to balance all possible samples with an integral weight in grams between 1 and 1000, what is the smallest number of weights he will need?

(Oh, this isn't school, so a stringently rigorous proof isn't necessary, but by the same token, give some explanation so we can follow your answer...)
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby ender516 on Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:57 pm

YoursFalsey wrote:Since this topic has been quiet for a few days, a new puzzle.

Jerrod the Jeweler is going into a new sideline of assaying ore samples. He intends to weigh ore samples with an old fashioned balance scale, placing the samples on one side and his weights on the other side until a balance is achieved. If he wishes to be able to balance all possible samples with an integral weight in grams between 1 and 1000, what is the smallest number of weights he will need?

(Oh, this isn't school, so a stringently rigorous proof isn't necessary, but by the same token, give some explanation so we can follow your answer...)

Nine weights covering gram weights of 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, and 512 should suffice. In fact, these weights would cover all integral weights in grams up to and including 1023. The weights used to balance a sample correspond to the "1" digits in a binary number system representation of the weight in grams.
Any set of weights in effect represents the weight of the sample in some number system or other. A straightforward set of decimal weights could include 1 through 9 by 1's, 10 through 90 by 10's, 100 through 900 by 100's, and a single 1000 gram weight, for a total of 28 different weights. This could be reduced in each range by using a 5, a 2 and two 1's (times each appropriate power of ten), but that still adds up to 13 different weights.

Looking at it from the other end, so to speak, if I have a single 1g weight, I can exactly weigh just one sample. If I add the 2g weight, I can now weigh 1, 2, or 3 gram samples. Add the 4g weight and my limit goes to 7g. In general, if I have all the power-of-2 weights up to 2-to-the-n, I can weigh all samples up to one less 2-to-the-n-plus-one. Each additional weight approximately doubles the number of sample weights that can be balanced, and I don't think that can be improved upon.
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby YoursFalsey on Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:19 pm

Pegged it in one AGAIN, Ender- I think I need to go deeper into the well of my math library to find more puzzling puzzles... Oh well, your turn again
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby ender516 on Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:00 pm

Okay, let's follow Jerrod's career a little further. Times being what they are, he determines that he cannot afford those nine weights. Determined to make a go of this business, he wracks his brain and comes up with a scheme which again allows him to weigh all possible samples with an integral weight in grams between 1 and 1000, but now using fewer than nine weights. What is his new method and what weights will he use?
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:07 pm

He buys electric scales.
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby ender516 on Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:10 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:He buys electric scales.

No, he is still using his pan balance.
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby spiesr on Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:47 pm

He buys one 1023g (or larger) weight and cuts it into the necessary pieces. This could be cheaper...
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby ender516 on Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:57 pm

spiesr wrote:He buys one 1023g (or larger) weight and cuts it into the necessary pieces. This could be cheaper...

Good outside-the-box thinking, but not what I had in mind. Anyway, how could he ensure the accuracy of the weights of the pieces he cut? And would you deal with someone whose weights weren't marked "legal for trade" by the Bureau of Weights and Measures? No, he will buy a set of less than nine official weights and use them unaltered. He will use the equal-arm pan balance unaltered (no tricks with weights at different distance from the fulcrum). But he will use the balance in a way somewhat different from that described in the previous puzzle.
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby Stroop on Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:06 pm

I think the 2g and 4g weights can be replaced by one 5g weight. Similar substitutions could be possible with heavier weights, but I'm too lazy to check.
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby ender516 on Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:13 pm

Stroop wrote:I think the 2g and 4g weights can be replaced by one 5g weight. Similar substitutions could be possible with heavier weights, but I'm too lazy to check.

No, how would you weigh a 3g sample in that scheme?
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby Stroop on Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:21 pm

ender516 wrote:
Stroop wrote:I think the 2g and 4g weights can be replaced by one 5g weight. Similar substitutions could be possible with heavier weights, but I'm too lazy to check.

No, how would you weigh a 3g sample in that scheme?

Simple. You take your sample, and put it on one end of the scale together with the 5g weight. Put the 8g weight on the other side of the scale.
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:29 pm

Stroop wrote:
ender516 wrote:
Stroop wrote:I think the 2g and 4g weights can be replaced by one 5g weight. Similar substitutions could be possible with heavier weights, but I'm too lazy to check.

No, how would you weigh a 3g sample in that scheme?

Simple. You take your sample, and put it on one end of the scale together with the 5g weight. Put the 8g weight on the other side of the scale.


Or use the 1 and the 2
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby Stroop on Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:57 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:
Stroop wrote:
ender516 wrote:
Stroop wrote:I think the 2g and 4g weights can be replaced by one 5g weight. Similar substitutions could be possible with heavier weights, but I'm too lazy to check.

No, how would you weigh a 3g sample in that scheme?

Simple. You take your sample, and put it on one end of the scale together with the 5g weight. Put the 8g weight on the other side of the scale.


Or use the 1 and the 2

Read the bold bit again. ;)
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby YoursFalsey on Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:16 pm

Ok. Obviously stroop is on the right track- if you use weights on both sides of the pan, you can do more ore sizes with fewer weights. So the question is how to optimize your weights to get the most possible ore sizes with the fewest weights.

Using only one scale side, each weight is either used or not used, so the most efficient way to get your weights was powers of two, and each ore size could be paired with a binary number. With both scale sides, each weight is either used on the left side, used on the right side, or not used- three possible outcomes- so powers of three seems to be the way to go. For instance with three weights, 1g, 3g, and 9g, you can measure any ore upto the total weight of your weights (13g). With seven weights: 1g, 3g, 9g, 27g, 81g, 243g, and 729g you should be able to measure any ore upto 1093g. For example, to measure 100g, put the weights for 1g, 27g, and 81g on one side of the scale (109 g) and the ore and the 9g weight on the other side.

The only problem: Off the top of my head, I don't see a way to prove there isn't some weight Xg that this scheme misses, and I am too lazy to verify it works by the brute force method of working out each weight individually. Although I brute forced for three weights, so maybe I can use induction from there... Anyway, I BELIEVE this scheme should suffice, but do not yet KNOW that it will...
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:38 pm

Stroop wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:
Stroop wrote:
ender516 wrote:
Stroop wrote:I think the 2g and 4g weights can be replaced by one 5g weight. Similar substitutions could be possible with heavier weights, but I'm too lazy to check.

No, how would you weigh a 3g sample in that scheme?

Simple. You take your sample, and put it on one end of the scale together with the 5g weight. Put the 8g weight on the other side of the scale.


Or use the 1 and the 2

Read the bold bit again. ;)

good point...

note to self:read the bloody posts before making stupid comments...
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby ender516 on Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:43 am

Sorry to leave you lot on your own so long. I see you have been talking amongst yourselves. Fine, I gave you a topic.

Once Stroop demonstrated an understanding of the "use either pan" technique, I was about to post that this answer was going in the right direction, but needed more work. You see, I had in mind the two-pan base-3 system that YoursFalsey described, but if Stroop's set worked, I would have to concede to myself that the single replacement of the 2g and 4g weights with a 5g weight was a valid solution to the problem as posed.

Since we have a tradition here of not having to show all your work, I was willing to let Stroop's less analytical answer stand and I disappeared to work out whether this eight-weight set was sufficient for all the sample weights to be covered. That single substitution clearly made a set smaller than the binary set, but I was concerned by the fact that as I brute forced my way through the first few weights, I had to introduce the 16g weight in order to measure a 10g sample, when the corresponding binary set was sufficient for up to 15g. I was afraid this might cascade and we might run out of weights further up the scale. (Hmm, is that a pun or a literal statement?) I tried to use Excel to set up a spreadsheet with solutions for each weight, but wasted a lot of time trying to get Solver to pick weights for me.

Once I reverted to hand calculation, I discovered a few things:
  • a systematic use of the 1g, 5g, and 8g weights would cover all weights that 1g, 2g, 4g, and 8g could except 10g, 11g, and 15g and had two ways to represent 4g
  • using both pans means that this set can also cover the negative value of all those weights, so:
    • one could cover the missing values by balancing the 1g, or the 5g, or both against a 16g weight
    • Jerrod could start a sideline weighing helium-filled balloons.
  • YoursFalsey had described the solution I had in mind, but like Stroop was not presenting proof.

The following is not a proof, but will demonstrate, I think, the completeness of the ternary system by comparison to the binary.

show

Anyway, I think I will declare YoursFalsey the winner for at least spelling out a full set which matched what I had in mind. Stroop receives honourable mention and first runner-up. If for any reason YoursFalsey cannot fulfill the obligations of the position of winner, Stroop shall be asked to step in.
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby Stroop on Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:37 pm

Ahh, should have thought of ternary once I decided to put weights with the ore sample...

At least I get an honourable mention :)
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby ender516 on Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:17 pm

Stroop wrote:Ahh, should have thought of ternary once I decided to put weights with the ore sample...

At least I get an honourable mention :)

Glad to see you taking it with good graces. :) I was afraid I might be hearing from your lawyer about being first with the essential idea. :roll: :lol:
So, now we wait again for a new puzzle....
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby YoursFalsey on Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:46 pm

Fair warning- I don't know the answer to this one yet, although I know it has one. (I'm lifting it from a textbook on mathematical puzzling, and I haven't worked it out yet, but I wanted to get a puzzle out and I need to log off soon...)

Three couples are on the east side of the Big River and want to get to the other side. Luckily, they find a canoe, but unfortunately it is only big enough for two people at once. Worse, all three wives are insanely jealous and refuse to leave their husband with other women unless they are there to chaperone. What is the quickest way to get all three husbands and all three wives to the other side of Big River?
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby Stroop on Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:55 am

Alright. We have husband A and wife A, husband B and wife B and husband C and wife C.

Husband A and wife A cross.
Husband A crosses back.
Wife B and wife C cross.
Wife A crosses back.
Husband and wife A cross.
Husband A crosses back.
Husband A and husband B cross.
Wife C crosses back.
Husband C and wife C cross.

I think this way no wife has a problem with their jealousy and they all cross.
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby ender516 on Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:43 am

Stroop wrote:Alright. We have husband A and wife A, husband B and wife B and husband C and wife C.

Husband A and wife A cross.
Husband A crosses back.
Wife B and wife C cross.
Wife A crosses back.
Husband and wife A cross.
Husband A crosses back.
Husband A and husband B cross.
Wife C crosses back.
Husband C and wife C cross.

I think this way no wife has a problem with their jealousy and they all cross.

This looks good provided the wives only object to their husbands being with unescorted women, because after the second step, husband A is on the east side with wives B and C, but husbands B and C are there as well.

Here is another "solution":

Husband A and wife A cross.
Husband A crosses back.
Wife B and wife C cross.
Husbands A, B, and C say good riddance to their harridans and go for a beer. :lol:
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby YoursFalsey on Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:34 pm

Stroop is on the right track, but unfortunately, the wives DO object even if their husband and the other wife(s) have other husbands present- they are not just jealous, but insanely jealous. :roll: Apparently they are even afraid of spontaneous orgies and the like.

Ender's alternative solution has a lot to recommend it, because I can't see putting up with someone that jealous, but apparently these husbands are more gentlemanly than I am...
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby porkenbeans on Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:49 pm

YoursFalsey wrote:Stroop is on the right track, but unfortunately, the wives DO object even if their husband and the other wife(s) have other husbands present- they are not just jealous, but insanely jealous. :roll: Apparently they are even afraid of spontaneous orgies and the like.

Ender's alternative solution has a lot to recommend it, because I can't see putting up with someone that jealous, but apparently these husbands are more gentlemanly than I am...
No, I believe you are wrong, Stroop is correct.
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby YoursFalsey on Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:08 pm

porkenbeans wrote:
YoursFalsey wrote:Stroop is on the right track, but unfortunately, the wives DO object even if their husband and the other wife(s) have other husbands present- they are not just jealous, but insanely jealous. :roll: Apparently they are even afraid of spontaneous orgies and the like.

Ender's alternative solution has a lot to recommend it, because I can't see putting up with someone that jealous, but apparently these husbands are more gentlemanly than I am...
No, I believe you are wrong, Stroop is correct.


Sorry, porken, but as Ender pointed out, after the canoe has gone across and back, wife A is on the far side of the river while her husband is on the original side with the other husbands and (more importantly) the other wives. In each intermediate step, each husband must either be in a group that is male only or their wife must be present. Other wives may be present, but only if the husband's wife is also there.
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Re: Riddles and Puzzles

Postby YoursFalsey on Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:52 pm

OK, it's been over a week, so here is some clue-age to move things along:

Think about legal intermediate states. For example, if 5 people are on one side of the river, and only one is on the other side, the one must be one of the husbands, because a wife would be too concerned about how her husband and the other wives were interacting. What are the possibilities for 4 people on one side and 2 on the other? What are the possibilities for three on one side and three on the other? (Less then you may think, so this is really important for solving the process...)

Likewise, think about trying to do things in the fewest possible trips, as certain legal moves can be eliminated for being ultimately pointless. It would be within the rules of the puzzle to begin by sending Husband A across the river by himself- but since he would have to be the one to bring the canoe back, returning the puzzle to where it stood before he crossed, there isn't any point to such a beginning.

In fact, the first two moves of the puzzle are kind of given. Two people must cross over in the canoe. Two wives isn't legal, as that leaves their husbands around the third wife without them watching him. So either a husband and wife or two husbands must go across. For both to come back is ultimately pointless, so only one will bring the canoe back. If it was a couple that went over, the wife must bring the canoe back since she doesn't trust her husband around the other wives. If it was two husbands, obviously one husband is bringing it back and the other is staying on the far side. So after two crossings, one husband (call him Husband A) is on the west side and the husbands B and C are on the east side with all three wives and the canoe. Now carry this forward...
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