Vancouver [Quenched]

[isaiah40]

I like the map and it's fun to play on, but the only problem I have with it is that it's hard in the north to do things. There are only 3 ways to reach it, 1 by boat and 2 land bridges, and there are three bonuses up there that can eventually become incredibly easy to hold. I would try connecting Belcarra to seymour mountain to allow more flow, but hey. Great job. I really do enjoy playing on it.

I played my first game on it and that's exactly what I did. I grabbed those 3 bonuses and held them (well they were taken from me twice). I eventually won the game. I agree that they are a little too easy to hold.

[shakeycat]

I wonder then if I should make North Vancouver with three starting positions and one forced neutral 3 (Lonsdale)? Lonsdale because it blocks between bridges from Hastings/Downtown, and protects Grouse Mountain, as well as the east end of North Vancouver. I don't want to discourage the taking of those three bonuses entirely, just make it harder to sweep the area by only killing your enemy. We tend to dance around and avoid killing neutrals, lest we waste our entire army on them.

[isaiah40]

I wonder then if I should make North Vancouver with three starting positions and one forced neutral 3 (Lonsdale)? Lonsdale because it blocks between bridges from Hastings/Downtown, and protects Grouse Mountain, as well as the east end of North Vancouver. I don't want to discourage the taking of those three bonuses entirely, just make it harder to sweep the area by only killing your enemy. We tend to dance around and avoid killing neutrals, lest we waste our entire army on them.

You could do that. IMHO I think you might be also add a connection between Belcarra and Deep Cove. I think that would help a little. It would force you to defend one more place. Here's the game I played so you can see what actions I took http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=5596512 Hope this helps.

[Lobster Crush]

You could do that. IMHO I think you might be also add a connection between Belcarra and Deep Cove. I think that would help a little. It would force you to defend one more place. Here's the game I played so you can see what actions I took http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=5596512 Hope this helps.

As a former Vancouverite, I'd be very much against a connection between Belcarra and Deep Cove, since in reality such a connection is almost impossible. One of my favourite things about shakeycat's map is that it is very faithful to the geography of the area...there are no unrealistic impassibles or connections.

[MrBenn]

If you're going to add a neutral to the North, I'd be inclined to add it to Capilano, so as to not trap any territories in (ie Grouse Mountain). Capilano is a more strategic territory, and more likely to be taken in any case.

Looking at the bonuses a bit more I'm wondering if West Vancouver could be dropped down to 1, and North Vancouver dropped down to 2.

In either case, I'm under the impression that Downtown needs to be coded as an underlying neutral

[Danyael]

Looking at the bonuses a bit more I'm wondering if West Vancouver could be dropped down to 1, and North Vancouver dropped down to 2.

I think this may be good in stopping the steam roller effect of holding the north west areas

[shakeycat]

If we drop the bonuses of North and West Van, perhaps a neutral is not needed. I agree that the bonuses are a little high, and am happier if they add up to 5, not 7.

But if I add starting positions to 4 territory groups, is it too much? Does it make it dull, to be dished the same sets of territories game after game? I'm not really sure what the norm is, here.

I can see making Downtown station neutral, but Downtown? Since it is one of the few territories that connects to the North shore, I am concerned that it would only leave Hastings and Tsawwassen as open attack points, as an attacker (especially a weak one) from elsewhere may avoid Downtown's neutrals. Perhaps you can explain the thought behind the idea?

For now, the only update is:
- North Vancouver (2), West Vancouver (1)

http://www.atomation.com/~thazzard/fun/gva/sep25.jpg
http://www.atomation.com/~thazzard/fun/gva/sep25s.jpg
http://www.atomation.com/~thazzard/fun/ ... couver.xml

[MrBenn]

I can see making Downtown station neutral, but Downtown? Since it is one of the few territories that connects to the North shore, I am concerned that it would only leave Hastings and Tsawwassen as open attack points, as an attacker (especially a weak one) from elsewhere may avoid Downtown's neutrals. Perhaps you can explain the thought behind the idea?

I meant Downtown Station

[shakeycat]

In that case, I've added a (3) neutral to Downtown Station in the current XML.

[jako]

I wouldn't mind seeing downtown station start as a neutral and during the foundry process, I did mention lowering the bonuses for north/west van, but I would hate to see coded starting positions. If i wanted to start from a pre-defined position every single time, I'd go play feudal or AoM , for god sakes.

[MrBenn]

If we drop the bonuses of North and West Van, perhaps a neutral is not needed. I agree that the bonuses are a little high, and am happier if they add up to 5, not 7.

But if I add starting positions to 4 territory groups, is it too much? Does it make it dull, to be dished the same sets of territories game after game? I'm not really sure what the norm is, here.

I can see making Downtown station neutral, but Downtown? Since it is one of the few territories that connects to the North shore, I am concerned that it would only leave Hastings and Tsawwassen as open attack points, as an attacker (especially a weak one) from elsewhere may avoid Downtown's neutrals. Perhaps you can explain the thought behind the idea?

For now, the only update is:
- North Vancouver (2), West Vancouver (1)

http://www.atomation.com/~thazzard/fun/gva/sep25.jpg
http://www.atomation.com/~thazzard/fun/gva/sep25s.jpg
http://www.atomation.com/~thazzard/fun/ ... couver.xml

This XML link doesn't have the neutral on Downtown Station - if you could amend that too, then I'll get the updates posted to lackattack

[shakeycat]

Monday !!

and fine. No more starting positions the only major problem with drops has been solved. If you happen drop with a bonus, there's still 50/50 you won't go first

[iancanton]

i hope u mean no more start positions than the ones we have just now, but retaining those ones! if so, then i think the minimal changes to the xml that u're planning to do, in coding downtown station as an underlying neutral plus reducing the north van and west van bonuses, will have a beneficial effect for little effort, without much downside. the more drastic solutions mentioned previously do have more potential for unforeseen consequences for a map that, by all accounts, usually plays nicely, so are best left as a backup if "plan a" doesn't work!

ian.

[shakeycat]

The XML does have (3) neutral on Downtown Station, as updated last day. Unless it doesn't look like this?

Code: Select all

- <!--
  -->
  −
- <territory>
  <name>Downtown Station</name>
  −
- <borders>
  <border>Downtown</border>
  <border>Kerrisdale Station</border>
  <border>Fraserview Station</border>
  <border>Port Moody Station</border>
  </borders>
  −
- <coordinates>
  <smallx>134</smallx>
  <smally>154</smally>
  <largex>168</largex>
  <largey>189</largey>
  </coordinates>
  <neutral>3</neutral>
  </territory>
- <!--
  -->

And yes, Ian, that is what I mean - keep the starting positions we have, don't add any more.

[ender516]

The XML does have (3) neutral on Downtown Station, as updated last day. Unless it doesn't look like this?

Code: Select all

- <!--
  -->
  −
- <territory>
  <name>Downtown Station</name>
  −
- <borders>
  <border>Downtown</border>
  <border>Kerrisdale Station</border>
  <border>Fraserview Station</border>
  <border>Port Moody Station</border>
  </borders>
  −
- <coordinates>
  <smallx>134</smallx>
  <smally>154</smally>
  <largex>168</largex>
  <largey>189</largey>
  </coordinates>
  <neutral>3</neutral>
  </territory>
- <!--
  -->

And yes, Ian, that is what I mean - keep the starting positions we have, don't add any more.

I was holding off on starting a game until this change was done, so I thought I would take a peek at http://www.conquerclub.com/maps/Vancouver.xml, but I do not see the neutral element for the Downtown Station territory. Have I got the right link?

[MrBenn]

I have sent the updated files to lackattack - and just need him to upload them now

[G0lg0tha]

Well that change sucks for me, halfway through a game and now getting less for the bonuses I captured.
It should be possible to make these changes without effected games in progress.

[ender516]

Well that change sucks for me, halfway through a game and now getting less for the bonuses I captured.
It should be possible to make these changes without effected games in progress.

I suspect it would be possible, if a number of versions of the maps could be kept on line at one time, with each game recording which version it was created from, and only the latest available for new game creations. However, this is really only an issue for beta maps, where you have to expect weird stuff like this (just ask the Route 66 players who discovered that the game objective had been omitted from the XML), so I suspect that such a change would be WAY down lackattack's to-do list, if it made it on the list at all.

[shakeycat]

How are the new bonuses working for everyone? Is it more fair?

And since when is the map called Vancouver 2?

[MrBenn]

How are the new bonuses working for everyone? Is it more fair?

And since when is the map called Vancouver 2?

Apparently it's done to stop people having an incorrect image cached (which would show different bonus information.

Well that change sucks for me, halfway through a game and now getting less for the bonuses I captured.
It should be possible to make these changes without effected games in progress.

It does say on the game finder:

Warning: Maps designated as "Beta" might have unbalanced gameplay and undergo changes mid-game. Play at your own risk!

I know it sucks, but it's one of the risks of playing a Beta Map

[the.killing.44]

Vancouver 2? Epic barf. I also lost my UDs

[dowian2]

Random question that has probably already been answered, but I don't feel like paging through 30 pages of the forum...

Why is it that in 1v1 games, you sometimes start with 22 regions, and sometimes start with 23?

[HollyElizabeth]

Kotaro mentioned this and I found it to be a bit curious...

There is an inconsistency in this map...

Game 5739015
2009-10-12 12:12:17 - Iron Maid received 7 troops for 23 regions

While in this game:

Game 5739017
2009-10-12 12:08:35 - dowian2 received 7 troops for 22 regions

both were first turn counts
Different starting bonus' and terr counts

[the.killing.44]

Random question that has probably already been answered, but I don't feel like paging through 30 pages of the forum...

Why is it that in 1v1 games, you sometimes start with 22 regions, and sometimes start with 23?

Odd…

[ender516]

Kotaro mentioned this and I found it to be a bit curious...

There is an inconsistency in this map...

Game 5739015
2009-10-12 12:12:17 - Iron Maid received 7 troops for 23 regions

While in this game:

Game 5739017
2009-10-12 12:08:35 - dowian2 received 7 troops for 22 regions

both were first turn counts
Different starting bonus' and terr counts

Looks like the difference might be the XML update which made Downtown Station a starting neutral. In Game 5739015, we can see that initially Downtown Station belonged to dowian2, and Iron Maid conquered it in the first turn. In 5739017, it is currently neutral. How you get 23 regions on a 66/67 region map, I couldn't say. Did it have 69 (or more) before the last update?