[Abandoned] - Colisevm

[pikkio]

but only one note ... curves also make the perspective change...

infact. somewhere i think i wrote it..

[isaiah40]

Suggestion. How about if you instead of the curved border lines, why not 'V' shaped pointing in the direction of travel? I think this would be a good idea for 1) make a little more room to fit in territory name shield/helmet and the '888', 2) it would make the map cleaner.

For game play why not be able to attack between any one ring diagonally to any other ring (of course it would be either the ring below or the ring above). If so then you can remove the blood spatter and the attack arrow thereby cleaning up the map as well. Then you can put the attack game instructions in the legend and remove the attack route from the legend thereby cleaning that up as well.

All in all it looks it will be an interesting map to play, can't wait to play it Good job so far

[iceco]

I support the idea of making V shaped borders, though I suggest making the tip rounded, not sharp.

I also have a small idea to replace arrows and blood stains (only look to the left):

Click image to enlarge.

The idea is to have the ring "break" and what direction it breaks in, determines what way you can attack in. If it breaks both ways, it's a two-way, like the blood stains used to be.
It would make it look a bit more minimalistic.

If you decide to stay with the blood stains, I can also try to give you a better graphic for it. I have some experience with this type of graphics.

[isaiah40]

I don't know It looks a little confusing to me. I think just using a one way arrow or a two way arrow - not too big though - would work better.

If you look at the map and use your mouse and scroll fast up and down it looks like each ring either goes up or down depending on the direction of the borders. My eyes crossed trying to read the map.

[pikkio]

in my opinion it's really too caotic and the in&out method to differentiate the attack-way is too unclear..

[PepeAtila]

in the last version, the borders are much more better and clear.than you
the bloodstains are badder than the others.. their prospective is totally failed.. and i don't like that they seems crystal drops..well, it was lot of 'polemic' with the stains ... so I decided to make it not like a blood stain, but as a drop of blood symbol.
the dark/light effect that you gave to the arena is incorrect too and give a failed prospective effect. Really I think it is not cause the colors but because the curves ... for example you look at Kitanai Inu - Pilum on the left ... 'Kitanai' is down and Pilum is up... if you look at Cingulum - Bleu on the right ... cingulum is down and Bleu is up ... the colors are the same for each ring, so how can be in the same ring one down and one up? the same happens with each ring ... so when the curve-border are 'u' it looks like down, when it is 'n' it looks like up.

but you had understand the way, so don't be afraid and keep working!
and you understood how I do it... first I like to feel that it can be an improvement
i will try to give you some suggestion using some draft to be more clear.

this is how it seems now the section of your arena looking at your dark-light effect:

I see 'nunn-nunu'(in the middle section) but yes you are right it is a not good effect ... (I made some tries and it is not because the dark light... in this case.
and this is the real section that an arena will have:

so, don't abuse of your program's effect and try to make it more realistic only using colours. something like this:

Click image to enlarge.

the really I am looking for it is the flat one. However I think a first impression about that image ... looks like the effect that you are telling .... but looking again it is just a extended sand ... almost the same as a bullfighter stadium ( really it is incredible, just I look for 'Plaza de toros' in Internet and it apears my idea (I should think it before)...)

if you see, in this draft the outer circle is the more lighting cause it's the more up and every circle is more dark when the arena goes more down. yhea, this is not too realistic, cause we will must suppose one light direction and then change the colour of every circles with an half more light and one more dark.. but give a realistic prospective to circle shapes it's quite hard, so i think you can be happy to give just a feeling of the right prospective.here is the point!!! I know for example if you take a 'real' perspective you just can take a top-down image and you lost the prespective details, if you take an angular perspective you should lost a part of the real ... I don't know how to explain I think the expression is 'balance' in what aspect do you want to loose/what aspect do you want to win(to make more important)

looking at the correct arena section, you can probably understand what i mean when i say that the bloodstains are incorrect.. in the draft i drawn an example of a stain that give a feeling of the right prospective (not the perfect effect, but a more realistic feeling than your stains..).
in any case, i had the idea to use some little stair to connect circle-to-circle, and i tried to put an arrow inside them. that help to be more clear that they are connections, and you can easily use it to make one-way connection or two-way connection using the same stair. I will use it for the around stadium
in this mode you can use the stains (or whatever you will ideate) only to connect in the same circle. in any case, don't use special effect for the stains, but work on their shape making it irregular and similar to a real squirting-blood-stain.

finally, i think that the curve borders are too unrealistic and give a wrong prospective feeling, so i would prefer something like my draft (maybe not only lines, but something with a corpe..). Perhaps I gave badly the idea ... if you see from the beginning the fight is in a flat Arena... with movements rules (one position of the fighter - and having a front and a back and all the curves, borders, stains, arrows are just to make easier (I begin to hesitate) to understand where is the direction the movement is forward.in that mode you can tell that blue borders are one-way clockwise and red borders are one-way counter-clockwise. one thing: don't draw it willy-nilly like i did, make every line from the center of the arena to the edge of the circle, and then cut the excess. that will help to increase the prospective feeling. I cannot still thinking about the perspective when I want to make an understable 'diagram' to play ... ( I am sorry but I read a new comment

great, another confusing and hard to play map. if i had a guess, i probibly say the'll eventualy accept this map to the list.

This I really don't want to make it... my aim to do it as understable as possible (so I think the curves and borders 'should make it' easier to understand even if I lost the perspective of flat terrain ...

keep in mind that my draft sucks and i make it only to explane you the focal concept. i hope that my draft will give you some inspiration and show you the way, but starting from it there is a lot of work to do.
really thank you very much, perhaps you paid for 'haggispittjr' that made me a little angry because he don't understand that our 'free' work and cooperation (because at the end the work is from all of you who give me ideas, advices and so.. and from me ) I was telling that he don't understands that he is enjoying CC because lot of people are working for him

edit: Oh my god! my draft really sucks!
You are making a great job and helping me a lot...

[PepeAtila]

great, another confusing and hard to play map. if i had a guess, i probibly say the'll eventualy accept this map to the list.

I hope they accept it ... I am working just to see smbdy-some day playing it and enjoing with it. Really hard to play and perhaps confusing if you dont know the basic rules... but easy to play and understand what is the strategics to follow.

[PepeAtila]

Suggestion. How about if you instead of the curved border lines, why not 'V' shaped pointing in the direction of travel? I think this would be a good idea for 1) make a little more room to fit in territory name shield/helmet and the '888', 2) it would make the map cleaner. I really tried but you don't win too much, in fact when I make the Arena I make it in 840x800 pixels and I reduce to 80% to post it... and if you see the version 9 the 88 are included ... but I have a 20% yet to expand it.

For game play why not be able to attack between any one ring diagonally to any other ring (of course it would be either the ring below or the ring above). If so then you can remove the blood spatter and the attack arrow thereby cleaning up the map as well. Then you can put the attack game instructions in the legend and remove the attack route from the legend thereby cleaning that up as well.yes, and it is like this, you can atack just if you go fordward (even between rings) ... for me the blod and arrows are not necesary, but I think for people is easier to see the movements with that signals.

All in all it looks it will be an interesting map to play, can't wait to play it Good job so far

Really thank you for your strength and support.

[PepeAtila]

I support the idea of making V shaped borders, though I suggest making the tip rounded, not sharp.

I also have a small idea to replace arrows and blood stains (only look to the left):

Click image to enlarge.

The idea is to have the ring "break" and what direction it breaks in, determines what way you can attack in. If it breaks both ways, it's a two-way, like the blood stains used to be.
It would make it look a bit more minimalistic.

If you decide to stay with the blood stains, I can also try to give you a better graphic for it. I have some experience with this type of graphics.

Really thanks, you saw I took a lot of ideas from you... (like the curves) I think curves are better option than V sharped borders (they 'eat' more space and the result would be ... too crowded (piled up??) ) ... even when the inconvenient I see for curves is the change of perspective in the different rings.
Really I think explaining that going in one area you only can attack to the next ring when the destination is more forward limits than your position in the correct direction might be enough, but I think is not enough... Really your solution fix in some part the problem of perspective, broking the ring the idea of different highs also broke. But I think it lose something ... so ... please the blood ... but I am not sure if I just should make a 'logo' writting in red 'blood'

As always thanks for your irreplaceable help.

[pikkio]

i didn't understand that you want to make a flat arena..
i'm italian and for me gladiators means colosseum, so i thought about a little flat of sand in the center and several big circular step outside.

yes, the curves make the prospective feel crazy, but i still think that your dark/light effect give a failed feeling about prospective.. i'm waiting for a "uncurved" version.

but the point now is: if you want to make a flat arena, why you give to it strange light/dark effect? i don't think that is possible that flat sand keep that colour effect.. why you don't try with a texture (like my next example) or with a full colour?
and, i'm thinking that your map can be chaotic cause there are too many light colours (gold and white-gold for the sand, light brown the borders, white the names, light brown white and grey for the icons, yellow the arrows and light red the blood, gray and white and yellow the outside of the arena..), so you must try to use some dark colour. maybe you can make a dark sand and more dark borders (like in my next example), so the other objects pop up and don't mix with the background. i saw it on my maps: dark backgrounds keep the eyes safe and give a "more serious" feeling to the map.



in my example there is also an idea for the circular attacks. don't use curves or something similar, try another way, like my idea, to make straigt borders and make more clear the clock-way attacks.

[iceco]

Sorry, but I didn't completely get your last reply. Do you want me to give the blood symbol a try or will that not be necessary?
I could also try other things, like a star (like in Batman, with the "pow" in it, but then without it), a sword, a more elegant double arrow, a skull with bones (like on the pirate flags),...

[PepeAtila]

i didn't understand that you want to make a flat arena..
i'm italian and for me gladiators means colosseum, so i thought about a little flat of sand in the center and several big circular step outside. I was in Colloseum also and I saw there are a lot of 'streets' under the 'sand' but I have the image of the movies and so ... flat of sand

yes, the curves make the prospective feel crazy, but i still think that your dark/light effect give a failed feeling about prospective.. i'm waiting for a "uncurved" version.
Do you mean return ro version 7 but doing clearer borders? I hope I have time soon, now I almost have time in week end and some litle while. But I still think that curves are a good orientation for players.

but the point now is: if you want to make a flat arena, why you give to it strange light/dark effect? mainly 2 reasons, 1st to differenciate rings but softly (even without borders it comes from version 1, 2nd because in some tries (before this threat) I was dividing the arena in regions (differenciate by ring, shadow/wet/sunny sand i don't think that is possible that flat sand keep that colour effect.. perhaps not so regular and a little darkerwhy you don't try with a texture (like my next example) or with a full colour? I like ... just a little dry this sand ... I guess just I would like to mantain smthing from the begining, but also if I make darker sand all the group will change, I will see the effect!!! but I don't promiss anything
and, i'm thinking that your map can be chaotic cause there are too many light colours (gold and white-gold for the sand, light brown the borders, white the names, light brown white and grey for the icons, yellow the arrows and light red the blood, gray and white and yellow the outside of the arena..), so you must try to use some dark colour. How did you realize I prefer light colors?? ?? maybe you can make a dark sand and more dark borders (like in my next example), so the other objects pop up and don't mix with the background. i saw it on my maps: dark backgrounds keep the eyes safe and give a "more serious" feeling to the map. I agree, buuut also I don't like a too serious feeling, ... how to explain? Well I can try 'a little' darker But mainly because I like how it looks like your map



in my example there is also an idea for the circular attacks. don't use curves or something similar, try another way, like my idea, to make straigt borders and make more clear the clock-way attacks. see version 7, I began to introduce some arrows to help, but I really thought is more helpful and 'natural' the round borders ... I will try from 7 version modifying, but I have to look for an intermediate way

As always thank you very much.

[PepeAtila]

Sorry, but I didn't completely get your last reply. Do you want me to give the blood symbol a try or will that not be necessary?
I could also try other things, like a star (like in Batman, with the "pow" in it, but then without it), a sword, a more elegant double arrow, a skull with bones (like on the pirate flags),...

I really don't know because nobody likes 'my' blood... and I was wandering if perhaps with some 'touch' of smbdy else I will see what is wrong...
Of course it was another try, the truth is that I dont know how a map can become a draft ... you saw how I was changing almost everything ...

Thanks. I know you are helping me a lot.

[iceco]

Here, I made the blood stain and a double arrow. See if others like these more.

Click image to enlarge.

EDIT:
The arrow could have been better...
But now I think of it, I could also do the other graphics in black lines (the helmets, shields and swords). The thing is, the map would then be totally different qua looks, so I don't know if it is desirable.

[pikkio]

But now I think of it, I could also do the other graphics in black lines (the helmets, shields and swords). The thing is, the map would then be totally different qua looks, so I don't know if it is desirable.

yes, you got the point. your blood is better than pepe's one (sorry pepe.. ) but if he will use that well made 3D feeling blood-drop, it certainly don't look good with the rest of the map (like the pepe's crystal blood-drop...). so he must change the other icons too, and the general map feeling too. personally i think that it could be better (like i'm pushing since my first post..), but certainly pepe should accept your help and try this change and see where the map will go..
pepe said many times that he don't want a "too serious" graphic, but one thing is to make a comic feeling map, or a pop-art map, or something like that, but another thing is to make a map that seems a novice's map.. i'm so sorry pepe, and i'm sure that you can easily get how to make something more professional, like i did when i started with computer graphic. and the experience to make a CC map will certainly give to you many skills (like it was for me). but the point is: at now your map seems a graphic novice's map and if you want it quenched i think you must change totally the approach. trust me, i had many trubles in the foundry and i think that now i got its methods.

By the way, one thing: obviusly you must change the dark/light effect of the blood-drops with the changing of thei position in the map, or it should be better without that accurate shadowing effect...

[PepeAtila]

But now I think of it, I could also do the other graphics in black lines (the helmets, shields and swords). The thing is, the map would then be totally different qua looks, so I don't know if it is desirable.

yes, it would be different. Thanks I got the idea about blood I will answer now to pikio.

yes, you got the point. your blood is better than pepe's one (sorry pepe.. ) no, why sorry?? it is true. but if he will use that well made 3D feeling blood-drop, it certainly don't look good with the rest of the map (like the pepe's crystal blood-drop...). This is the point I was talking about.so he must change the other icons too, and the general map feeling too. personally i think that it could be better (like i'm pushing since my first post..), but certainly pepe should accept your help and try this change and see where the map will go.. I guess you understand for that I would prefer to give up ... and perhaps somebody else develop some similar map
pepe said many times that he don't want a "too serious" graphic, but one thing is to make a comic feeling map, or a pop-art map, or something like that, but another thing is to make a map that seems a novice's map.. i'm so sorry pepe, I am novice doing maps but also I dont want to hide it!!! and i'm sure that you can easily get how to make something more professional, like i did when i started with computer graphic. Really, I made a 'draft' with flat dark color in sand, with a more serious apparience ... really I don't like. why? perhaps because I feel that it is nothing new ... and the experience to make a CC map will certainly give to you many skills (like it was for me). but the point is: at now your map seems a graphic novice's map and if you want it quenched i think you must change totally the approach. trust me, i had many trubles in the foundry and i think that now i got its methods. yes, I guess I just wanted to make a map while I enjoy it ... so if I have to change totally the aproach, perhaps is better not continue, mainly because I think (or I thought) that this work is an 'open' ideas development and an interchange of ideas...

By the way, one thing: obviusly you must change the dark/light effect of the blood-drops with the changing of thei position in the map, or it should be better without that accurate shadowing effect... I am sorry in that moment I am a little saturated ... mainly because I think I have to go back 2 or 3 steps ... I began to work about the 'decoration' because I was thinking the game is perfectly playable... anyway I guess this week end I will continue and of course both of you are helping me a lot to learn...
But don't think I want to hide that this is my first map.

[pikkio]

pepe, don't give up!

yes, it's really bad when you understand that you will have to go back, but this is how the foundry works.. and the preliminary reviews are one of the solutions that the admin have found. when i made my maps, sometimes there wasn't good critics or suggestion and i gone foward making errors and then, when someone expert come and show me the way i returned back and take another way loosing the recent works.. the preliminary reviews help to avoid that the mapmaker going too foward before an expert come and help him. i was (and i am) a supporter about the creation of a group that follow every map from the start to the end, but there are too many maps and too less expert..

in any case, is totally normal that a first time mapmaker must gone two step back or totally change is map before the quench. it happens to me too. look at my castle lands. it hasn't a classical graphic, and it hasn't a classical gameplay or structure, but it still look professional and don't seem a novice's map (i hope..). i tried many graphic styles, a change the graphic approach several times, and sometimes i was really in crisis cause i don't understand what the people was saying and how i must change the map. one time i was really thinking to give it up cause for me the map can't be better, when i had the idea to use pixel-rpg graphic, almost randomly.. i liked it, people liked it and i found new motivations for the map. after the badder down i found the final solution..
belive in you, take a pause, think random and with open mind, and THE idea will come and you will make your un-classical but un-novice map.

[iceco]

Pepe, it will work eventually, don't worry. It will be a bit of searching, but that's normal.

I did a second try at the blood drop, so it looks more iconographic. I'm not sure if it will fit more with the map though, but see for yourself.


You can always ask me to try something more specific, if you better know what direction you want it to go in. Though I encourage you to go with your ideas and not just accept others', as then you'll never find the will to complete this map.

[PepeAtila]

thanks very much. well time to work !!!

I dont know in English exactly to say for both: "Muchisimas gracias"

[PepeAtila]

Pepe, it will work eventually, don't worry. It will be a bit of searching, but that's normal.

I did a second try at the blood drop, so it looks more iconographic. I'm not sure if it will fit more with the map though, but see for yourself.


You can always ask me to try something more specific, if you better know what direction you want it to go in. Though I encourage you to go with your ideas and not just accept others', as then you'll never find the will to complete this map.

It really works, but perhaps I shoud make them a little transparent, what do you think?, I changed just a little to make them fully red.

Please I need you tell me your REAL impression about this map (v12) I know I have to care a little more about the conexion between lines, and improve the zone for spectators, but I mean the Arena itself ... and iconics ... it is understable?

[PepeAtila]

pepe, don't give up!
I will not, just it is like Fenix
yes, it's really bad when you understand that you will have to go back, but this is how the foundry works.. about this ... I am not in the 'Foundry' yet.and the preliminary reviews are one of the solutions that the admin have found. when i made my maps, sometimes there wasn't good critics or suggestion and i gone foward making errors and then, when someone expert come and show me the way i returned back and take another way loosing the recent works.. well, about this I have my own idea ( as always ) I mean I know the version 12 is clearer feeling, but I still think that 10 it is more easy to play, even when the perspective and so it is not the most appropiate, so what I don't know is where I should position the balance between easy to understand/ beautiful to see. the preliminary reviews help to avoid that the mapmaker going too foward before an expert come and help him. i was (and i am) a supporter about the creation of a group that follow every map from the start to the end, but there are too many maps and too less expert.. I understand it ... and that is why I appreciate more your help.

in any case, is totally normal that a first time mapmaker must gone two step back or totally change is map before the quench. it happens to me too. look at my castle lands. it hasn't a classical graphic, and it hasn't a classical gameplay or structure, but it still look professional and don't seem a novice's map (i hope..). You are lucky that my oppinion has not weight (it is a joke) i tried many graphic styles, a change the graphic approach several times, and sometimes i was really in crisis cause i don't understand what the people was saying and how i must change the map. one time i was really thinking to give it up cause for me the map can't be better, and in my oppinion, perhaps because I felt it, it really was better than last version.when i had the idea to use pixel-rpg graphic, almost randomly.. i liked it, people liked it and i found new motivations for the map. after the badder down i found the final solution.. I really avoid pixeling ... even when I understand smtimes can be necesary.
belive in you, take a pause, think random and with open mind, and THE idea will come and you will make your un-classical but un-novice map.

here I am again, but I don't like to stay stopped...

[pikkio]

GOOOOOD WORK PEPE!!!

yeah, there is still a lot of work to do, but in my opinion this is the way!

the black names are too readable and the map result less chaotic.
the blood icon can be better (if iceco give to you an icon like you want and you don't need to modify it, or if you both work on the same graphic program, so he can give to you the contruction file and you can modify it without loosing things) but i like the smaller size and the iconographic look.
the new background is more relaxing and the dark-light effect looks more better. we can found another thing to make more clear the circle division. just think about it for a while and someone will have a good idea. (maybe someone else suggestion will give an help.. i will ask for it )

now i think that you and iceco must work together to make a new set of icon (in particular, i think that they must be smaller than now). meanwhile, you can fix the borders (i mean try some border style and then put the best ones here for our vision), work on the outer details, fix the names, and think about something that will make more easy the clock attack.

p.s. remind to put your new map in the last post too, cause it's really useful for the people that don't follow the map every step and read some page together.

[iceco]

It really works, but perhaps I shoud make them a little transparent, what do you think?, I changed just a little to make them fully red.

Please I need you tell me your REAL impression about this map (v12) I know I have to care a little more about the conexion between lines, and improve the zone for spectators, but I mean the Arena itself ... and iconics ... it is understable?

The drop works better than I had thought. But as you say, make it a little bit transparent. Also, personally, I would keep them all horizontal and not rotate them depending on their position. And maybe put their layer below the one of the gladii, it looks awkward if they get in front of that graphic.

In general, the map looks more calm now. I like the adjustment to the arena floor, but it could be better still.
Maybe the one-way arrow needs a more original icon, to make it fit with the blood drop.
I can live with the straight lines instead of the curved ones, but it might need something to replace it as a hint to the attack direction.

[PepeAtila]

version 12.2

Click image to enlarge.

[PepeAtila]

It really works, but perhaps I shoud make them a little transparent, what do you think?, I changed just a little to make them fully red.

Please I need you tell me your REAL impression about this map (v12) I know I have to care a little more about the conexion between lines, and improve the zone for spectators, but I mean the Arena itself ... and iconics ... it is understable?

The drop works better than I had thought. But as you say, make it a little bit transparent. I made it but they lost too much the good color you gave them, I tried to do them without the black siluet... but are not the same, I guess I will return to your style Also, personally, I would keep them all horizontal and not rotate them depending on their position. done And maybe put their layer below the one of the gladii, it looks awkward if they get in front of that graphic. because I reduced the icons, so it is also solved.

In general, the map looks more calm now. I like the adjustment to the arena floor, but it could be better still. now it need less brilliant ... I guess, but also the blood I changed made it worse ... so I will return to your drop ...
Maybe the one-way arrow needs a more original icon, to make it fit with the blood drop. I have been trying spears, but it doesnt work, also something like a different sword, but it get more confusing with the icons for bonus ...
I can live with the straight lines instead of the curved ones, but it might need something to replace it as a hint to the attack direction. About this I can return to the 'L' arrows , I also did try with rings in different colors ... but it change to much.

version 12.3

Click image to enlarge.