Jamaica

[cairnswk]

....
ok, I have had a chance to review this. I really like the additions of this from when you 1st started, I think this was at around 20 something territories and now looks to have 40 plus territories, which Is much better.

as far as the bonus's go, it seems like they all work except 3 in my opinion, you currently have 2 foods + 1 ship = to a bonus of + 1, I would encourage you to think about just 2 foods being = to + 1 bonus as the ships have a + 3 as it is, same as bumbo, just have 2 bumbo's maybe for + 1 for bonus, and finally 2 gold cobs = + 1 for bonus.

of course these are just suggestions, you do what you think is best.

OK.
Version 16.
I've re-arranged a couple of things here...and this includes some thoughts from Dexstings post also, but your thoughts would be appreocaited....

1. autodeploy on each ship has been reduced to +2 so that 1v1 games etc will be sure to last a couple of rounds.
2. Each port has been given a gold cob, and this holds +1 bonus, so if you take another players port you get thta bonus.
3. Ship plus home port now holds total of +3 bonus which means if you lose yoor home port you lose +2 bonuses, one of the home port and one for the gold cob.
4. 2 foods are +2 in line with Dexstings request.
5. 2 Bumbos for +1
6. Some foods and slaves have also been re-arranged to cope with the food bonus so that each home port can attack 3 terts to gain +2 food bonus, making it fair on everyone. Of course Henry Morgan and Calico Jack will probably battle early on to gain control over food at the western end of the island.
7. A compromise for all maroons for +3

Click image to enlarge.

[iancanton]

pr docks has 5 neutrals on it again, rather than 6. i presume this is an oversight.

is there a reason for maroon town (is it one word or two? the t is lower case here, unlike in spanish town) to have 4 neutrals rather than the usual 3? i'm looking here at calico jack's difficult start, especially compared with london and france, though the bigger bonus for holding all maroons goes some way to offsetting this.

autodeploy on each ship has been reduced to +2 so that 1v1 games etc will be sure to last a couple of rounds.

good thinking. this change will make players choose the exact moment to attack!

the various amendments to the bonuses each appear to have their logic.

ian.

[cairnswk]

pr docks has 5 neutrals on it again, rather than 6. i presume this is an oversight.

Yes Ian. fixed. please refresh map above.

is there a reason for maroon town (is it one word or two? the t is lower case here, unlike in spanish town) to have 4 neutrals rather than the usual 3?

Yes the neutral 4 makes 17 or 18 between the two ports and that should be roughly the same for others also. Cap T for Town -> fixed.

i'm looking here at calico jack's difficult start, especially compared with london and france, though the bigger bonus for holding all maroons goes some way to offsetting this.

Any suggestions would be helpful towards that.

autodeploy on each ship has been reduced to +2 so that 1v1 games etc will be sure to last a couple of rounds.

good thinking. this change will make players choose the exact moment to attack!
the various amendments to the bonuses each appear to have their logic.
ian.

Cool, thanks Ian.

[iancanton]

are the start positions all coded as such, so that every position is occupied in 1v1, or are they normal regions similar to those in feudal war, so that 1v1 games start with 2 regions per player?

ian.

[cairnswk]

are the start positions all coded as such, so that every position is occupied in 1v1, or are they normal regions similar to those in feudal war, so that 1v1 games start with 2 regions per player?

ian.

Ian, my preference is to have as little code as possible when it comes to starts so that the drop remains purely random.
I would prefer not to code these starts so that in a 1v1 game wouldn't the drop be 3 per player plus 2 neutrals?

[cairnswk]

I'm not sold on the colour-scheme, which doesn't feel very Jamaican (colonial or otherwise)....

And what would be the colours for Jamaica or otherwise Mr Benn?

MrBenn, you posted this image sometime ago, and id like your opinion on what has been achieved so far. i don't know whether to take this further from from i have done.

[cairnswk]

Version 17.
Small graphic changes....
1. I reworked the Spanish, British and French hats
2. Redish brown added to border, and bottom border images top border curves
3. Resources and Foods heading given orange drop shadow

Click image to enlarge.

[ender516]

Sorry if this is nit-picky, but on the big map its called Kingston Port Royal, but on the zoomed-map its called Port Royal & Kingston...maybe change that to be consistent? Not that its confusing, I just think nit-picky it'd be nicer that way.

Sorry, but i read left to right and that is how i read the big map also, Port Royal first and then Kingston. So the parallel is the same on the title for the insert small map. Does that make sense?

I agreed with Dexsting initially, but I can see your point. However, at first glance, I looked at the big map, tilted my head 20 degrees to the right, and then I read "Kingston" first on an imaginary line above "Port Royal". Perhaps if you flipped the text the other way and moved the double-headed arrow to swing around to the east of the names?
Please pardon my text art.

Code: Select all

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That way, reading top to bottom and left to right amount to the same thing. Adding the ampersand may or may not help.

[cairnswk]

Sorry if this is nit-picky, but on the big map its called Kingston Port Royal, but on the zoomed-map its called Port Royal & Kingston...maybe change that to be consistent? Not that its confusing, I just think nit-picky it'd be nicer that way.

Sorry, but i read left to right and that is how i read the big map also, Port Royal first and then Kingston. So the parallel is the same on the title for the insert small map. Does that make sense?

I agreed with Dexsting initially, but I can see your point. However, at first glance, I looked at the big map, tilted my head 20 degrees to the right, and then I read "Kingston" first on an imaginary line above "Port Royal". Perhaps if you flipped the text the other way and moved the double-headed arrow to swing around to the east of the names?
Please pardon my text art.

Code: Select all

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That way, reading top to bottom and left to right amount to the same thing. Adding the ampersand may or may not help.

ender516.
I'm not but i am going to be stubborn about this one.
If i swing the text around it will intertfere with the arrow from London ship and make the arrow look obscure and kinda out of place. It might work if there were room for London underneath the Spanish Town tert, but there isn't.
Also if you look at the inset map, you quite clearly see that Port Royal is on the end of the isthmus jutting out from Kingston which is why i have them oriented and names placed the way they are, in sequence of their geogrpahical location. Thanks for the effor of showing your text layout but reading something like that from bottom to top would probbaly only confuse players more, and certainly while i can read it as you have it, it simply doesn't make sense to have it that way. Sorry. I think perhaps also that most players will have to do what they don't normally do with maps and that is gave a good examination of what lies where before they play the map.

[Dexsting]

Sorry if the quotes didn't turn out right, I'm very poor at forum tools...

I'm not but i am going to be stubborn about this one.
If i swing the text around it will intertfere with the arrow from London ship and make the arrow look obscure and kinda out of place. It might work if there were room for London underneath the Spanish Town tert, but there isn't.
Also if you look at the inset map, you quite clearly see that Port Royal is on the end of the isthmus jutting out from Kingston which is why i have them oriented and names placed the way they are, in sequence of their geogrpahical location. Thanks for the effor of showing your text layout but reading something like that from bottom to top would probbaly only confuse players more, and certainly while i can read it as you have it, it simply doesn't make sense to have it that way. Sorry. I think perhaps also that most players will have to do what they don't normally do with maps and that is gave a good examination of what lies where before they play the map.

Yeah, its cool if you leave it, and I see what you mean now; it was a small suggestion anyways

Do you think the All Maroons should be higher? Maybe +4?
they could be, but please convince me.

I think the +3 you just changed it to will work. It was a thought for Calico Jack and Spain to go after something besides Henry Morgan, and the Maroons would have to be enough to entice this.

Maybe to even London out a little get rid of the Bumbo on the Morgan line?
OK, i could do that but...
the territory Morgan Line has Bumbo (rum) on it because this is where Captain Henry Morgan had his rum wahehouses.
So i think it is quite apt given the flavour of the map. But i could be convinced otherwise with a good reason...

That makes sense, and with all ports having gold that may help too. Actually now that its 2 Bumbo's for the bonus, I don't think its a problem? Come to think of it though, where's the Fort Charles/Warehouses border? And which one has the Bumbo? There doesn't seem to be a border seperating them.

I'm curious with gameplay, will there be +1 per three territories minimum 3 each round? If not, maybe a mention on the right legend under Bonuses (no minimum bonus) or something like that?

I think the newest version keeps London's start from being too advantageous. Especially with France swooping down. Though if on a less than 8 player game, if someone got both London and France that'd be pretty advantageous...that might be another reason to bump the Maroons to +4, but +3 might be fine too. Maybe +3 and add a bonus: 1 Slave & All Maroons +1? Since if you hold the renegade slave territory you'd have a bonus for other slaves...

Thanks for listening

[ender516]

Sorry if this is nit-picky, but on the big map its called Kingston Port Royal, but on the zoomed-map its called Port Royal & Kingston...maybe change that to be consistent? Not that its confusing, I just think nit-picky it'd be nicer that way.

Sorry, but i read left to right and that is how i read the big map also, Port Royal first and then Kingston. So the parallel is the same on the title for the insert small map. Does that make sense?

I agreed with Dexsting initially, but I can see your point. However, at first glance, I looked at the big map, tilted my head 20 degrees to the right, and then I read "Kingston" first on an imaginary line above "Port Royal". Perhaps if you flipped the text the other way and moved the double-headed arrow to swing around to the east of the names?
Please pardon my text art.

Code: Select all

          l
         a
        y     n
       o     o
      R     t
        &  s
    t     g
   r     n
  o     i
 P      K


That way, reading top to bottom and left to right amount to the same thing. Adding the ampersand may or may not help.

ender516.
I'm not but i am going to be stubborn about this one.
If i swing the text around it will intertfere with the arrow from London ship and make the arrow look obscure and kinda out of place. It might work if there were room for London underneath the Spanish Town tert, but there isn't.
Also if you look at the inset map, you quite clearly see that Port Royal is on the end of the isthmus jutting out from Kingston which is why i have them oriented and names placed the way they are, in sequence of their geogrpahical location. Thanks for the effor of showing your text layout but reading something like that from bottom to top would probbaly only confuse players more, and certainly while i can read it as you have it, it simply doesn't make sense to have it that way. Sorry. I think perhaps also that most players will have to do what they don't normally do with maps and that is gave a good examination of what lies where before they play the map.

Well, I didn't intend for the text to be read from bottom to top. I was just using that to indicate the angle to which the text would be rotated. And you're right, it would make the arrow awkward. And we're all agreed, it is a small thing, and players everywhere should examine the maps before playing. After all, a lot of work goes into them.

[Beko the Great]

Hello CairnsWK!
I see here another great production from an excelent mapmaker which has dedicated a lot of hours to the Forge.
Gameplay wise I love this conquest style game, in a non-fantasy scenario. That's a pretty original idea and I congratulate you for that! Haven't studied (yet) all the neutral positions but in a general overview they seem fair .

About graphics, French hat is just perfect, British is fine too, though, Spanish and Pirate ones bother me quite a bit because the army circle covers a big part of them. The boats are very cool to me too and the food and resource symbols are very fine, though I fear for sugar and gold cobs visibility. Maybe add some outer glow?
A thing I think it's not good is the borders, they should be less right and more realistic (with more curves you know?)
The fonts are just perfect and impassables are cool

I really can't wait to play this one, I see very funny games ahead

Cheers!

[cairnswk]

Hello CairnsWK!
I see here another great production from an excelent mapmaker which has dedicated a lot of hours to the Forge.
Gameplay wise I love this conquest style game, in a non-fantasy scenario. That's a pretty original idea and I congratulate you for that! Haven't studied (yet) all the neutral positions but in a general overview they seem fair .

About graphics, French hat is just perfect, British is fine too, though, Spanish and Pirate ones bother me quite a bit because the army circle covers a big part of them. The boats are very cool to me too and the food and resource symbols are very fine, though I fear for sugar and gold cobs visibility. Maybe add some outer glow?
A thing I think it's not good is the borders, they should be less right and more realistic (with more curves you know?)
The fonts are just perfect and impassables are cool

I really can't wait to play this one, I see very funny games ahead

Cheers!

OK, thanks. Working on the borders and sugar icons for next version, although i think the gold cobs should be well visisble. Do you have any real issues with the gold cobs? They are very yellow and to me stick out lilke a sore thumb.

[Beko the Great]

Hello CairnsWK!
I see here another great production from an excelent mapmaker which has dedicated a lot of hours to the Forge.
Gameplay wise I love this conquest style game, in a non-fantasy scenario. That's a pretty original idea and I congratulate you for that! Haven't studied (yet) all the neutral positions but in a general overview they seem fair .

About graphics, French hat is just perfect, British is fine too, though, Spanish and Pirate ones bother me quite a bit because the army circle covers a big part of them. The boats are very cool to me too and the food and resource symbols are very fine, though I fear for sugar and gold cobs visibility. Maybe add some outer glow?
A thing I think it's not good is the borders, they should be less right and more realistic (with more curves you know?)
The fonts are just perfect and impassables are cool

I really can't wait to play this one, I see very funny games ahead

Cheers!

OK, thanks. Working on the borders and sugar icons for next version, although i think the gold cobs should be well visisble. Do you have any real issues with the gold cobs? They are very yellow and to me stick out lilke a sore thumb.

The major issue is with sugar icons, gold cobs just need some touch to make them more salient. You can try a different design like as pirates treasures;)

Cheers!

[cairnswk]

Version 18

1. Borders and coastline amended
2. Gold cobs and sugar plantations amended

Click image to enlarge.

[cairnswk]

...
About graphics, French hat is just perfect, British is fine too, though, Spanish and Pirate ones bother me quite a bit because the army circle covers a big part of them...

Beko, I'm kinda happy with all the hats.
Some may look strange but they are designed to look like that, i specifically wanted the spanish hat to sit inside, and the pirates to sit atop the army circles.

[neanderpaul14]

I'm loving this map it's looking great. However could you tell me what a bumbo is??

[cairnswk]

I'm loving this map it's looking great. However could you tell me what a bumbo is??

Rum - below will help
http://www.artofdrink.com/2007/05/bumbo ... irates.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumbo

[Beko the Great]

Hello again!
Excelent work on the borders! I like the touch you gave to sugar though gold cobs still don't please me, now it seems there are too many coins...
I think the mountains are quite weird as well, can you make a new design for them?

[cairnswk]

Hello again!
Excelent work on the borders! I like the touch you gave to sugar though gold cobs still don't please me, now it seems there are too many coins...
I think the mountains are quite weird as well, can you make a new design for them?

Beko...i'll remove a few coins, but the mountains i'm quite happy with, unless several other people don't like them....

[Beko the Great]

Hello again!
Excelent work on the borders! I like the touch you gave to sugar though gold cobs still don't please me, now it seems there are too many coins...
I think the mountains are quite weird as well, can you make a new design for them?

Beko...i'll remove a few coins, but the mountains i'm quite happy with, unless several other people don't like them....

Don't know, can you remove the contrast between the dark and the light zones of the mountains? But yeah, if you like, it's your map after all

Cheers!

[cairnswk]

Hello again!
Excelent work on the borders! I like the touch you gave to sugar though gold cobs still don't please me, now it seems there are too many coins...
I think the mountains are quite weird as well, can you make a new design for them?

Beko...i'll remove a few coins, but the mountains i'm quite happy with, unless several other people don't like them....

Don't know, can you remove the contrast between the dark and the light zones of the mountains? But yeah, if you like, it's your map after all

Cheers!

Beko, you'll have to refresh your borwser to see these changes in the same Version 18.

Click image to enlarge.

[whitestazn88]

never looked at this before, but i like it. i think auto deploy of 3 on the boats would be more fun though.

[MrBenn]

Cairns, you asked me to pop in and give you some of my thoughts - so here they are in no particular order... please bear in mind that I'm reading this as if I were a newb :

1. There's nothing to say that the rivers are impassable (which I assume they are?). In some places, the river isn't very easy to see (Negrill/Savannah Le Mar ; Black River /St Albans) and it isn't immediately obvious what does/doesn't connect at the Hanover/Marlie/Bluefields border -- it's reminiscent of some of the borders on the new France map which are awkward to see on the small map.

2. The text on the legend is slightly difficult to read with the white highlight/glow.... I don;t know if it's the highlight or the flourishing font?

3. The inset.... this is probably the biggest bone of contention in my eyes - it is painfully unclear from the main map where the borders go. The labels of 'Kingston' and 'Port Royal' don't appear anywhere on the inset [ just seen them on the title/banner bit ], so I'm not sure if they're territories or what...
You've written that "Spanish Town connects on the main map, but it doesn't border any of the territories that will have armies on the inset, so it seems unnecessary.
The church is yellow. No real problem with that, except you can guarantee that people will think it's a golden corn on the cob or something

4. The "Gameplay" legend doesn't seem to really make too much sense to me....
a. The starting positions thing - what do you mean by that? Do you mean to say that each ship can attack a specific port? Or are you just trying to clarify the 'home port' designation? It might be easier to make the 'ship +home port' bonus into 'ship + any port(s)' for +1
b. "Gather food and resources to create your army" - this would probably make more sense by the list of bonuses, although is a good general indication of the gameplay style.
c. "Maroons are renegade slaves". The maroon territories look more pink than maroon... does this mean that those territories have slave bonuses? (In addition to the bonus fro holding all of them?) Is this a purely historical footnote?
d. The PR Docks/London connection is mentioned twice on the legend. The attack route to the legend text also feels a little sloppy - and makes it look like you couldn;t decide what to do with the arrow/explanation

5. In actual fact, I wonder if it might be easier if you were to move the map inset to the extreme right of the map, to enable you to bring all the instructive text (legend lists) into one place. You may find it easier to add some kind of call-out box to help highlight what goes where?

6. Did somebody mention mountains? I'm sure they did We all know that mountains are one of the hardest things to get right, and I'm not quite convinced these are there yet either... and I'll echo my earlier comment about there being no mention of the rivers being impassable...

7. Why haven;t you added the symbols next to the bonus guide? You've got plenty of space there

8. I know we discussed the colour-scheme previously... the map doesn't cry out modern-Jamaica, but that's because it isn't... The scheme works, although I get a little niggle that makes me want the whole frame to appear gilt in some way... It feels like it should be hung up in a mahogany frame with golden/brass plates golden plates riveted onto it...


That's just my random/idle musings.

[cairnswk]

...
1. There's nothing to say that the rivers are impassable (which I assume they are?). In some places, the river isn't very easy to see (Negrill/Savannah Le Mar ; Black River /St Albans) and it isn't immediately obvious what does/doesn't connect at the Hanover/Marlie/Bluefields border -- it's reminiscent of some of the borders on the new France map which are awkward to see on the small map.

Impassables now in legend, with rivers colours changed and Negril River widened for clarity.

2. The text on the legend is slightly difficult to read with the white highlight/glow.... I don;t know if it's the highlight or the flourishing font?

Could be a combination of both. I don't want to change the font as i think it goes well with this historical era. Could be your eyes. Anyway, i've lightened the glow to a soft yellow to give a Jamaican Lime look.

3. The inset.... this is probably the biggest bone of contention in my eyes - it is painfully unclear from the main map where the borders go. The labels of 'Kingston' and 'Port Royal' don't appear anywhere on the inset [ just seen them on the title/banner bit ], so I'm not sure if they're territories or what...

I think the border are painfully clear given that there are various notations and double-up of terts names in both areas.
The representations on the main map are labelled Port Royal (and i added PR) and Kingston.
The labels of Port Royal and Kingston are mentioned in the inset, Kingston Harbour is one, and Port Royal is another.
If someone can't make the assoication there given that the whole inset is labelled Port Royal and Kingston, they dont' deserve to be playing any games on this site.

You've written that "Spanish Town connects on the main map, but it doesn't border any of the territories that will have armies on the inset, so it seems unnecessary.

I think it is further clarification of what is what in that region and absolutely necessary. It reinforces that Spanish Town connects to Stony Hills on the main map.

The church is yellow. No real problem with that, except you can guarantee that people will think it's a golden corn on the cob or something

OK, i've changed it to white so it doesn't have colour association.

4. The "Gameplay" legend doesn't seem to really make too much sense to me....

Changed...

a. The starting positions thing - what do you mean by that? Do you mean to say that each ship can attack a specific port? Or are you just trying to clarify the 'home port' designation? It might be easier to make the 'ship +home port' bonus into 'ship + any port(s)' for +1

Each ship can only attack its homeport, thus the notation in the legend and the lines on the map. Ship + any port would almost be like re-inserting the lines around the map that were removed some time ago for gameplay reasons. Sorry, I have to give preference to those who've been with the map.

b. "Gather food and resources to create your army" - this would probably make more sense by the list of bonuses, although is a good general indication of the gameplay style.

Yes, gameplay style, but i've altered it slightly.

c. "Maroons are renegade slaves". The maroon territories look more pink than maroon... does this mean that those territories have slave bonuses? (In addition to the bonus fro holding all of them?) Is this a purely historical footnote?

PInkish, Mmmm. either you or me is going colourblind. It looks brown to me. Because they are labelled Maroons ( a historical name) i have attached the word to the legend note. Colouring those terts "maroon" would be an eye-sore on the map.

d. The PR Docks/London connection is mentioned twice on the legend. The attack route to the legend text also feels a little sloppy - and makes it look like you couldn;t decide what to do with the arrow/explanation

Removed from legend.

5. In actual fact, I wonder if it might be easier if you were to move the map inset to the extreme right of the map, to enable you to bring all the instructive text (legend lists) into one place. You may find it easier to add some kind of call-out box to help highlight what goes where?

Surely you jest MrBenn? This inset has been in place for some time after previous versions were rejected. Sorry, but it stays where it is otherwise I would have to re-design the whole thing, and you really don't want me to doing that do you? Not at this stage. Mr Benn.

6. Did somebody mention mountains? I'm sure they did We all know that mountains are one of the hardest things to get right, and I'm not quite convinced these are there yet either...

Mmmm. I'll work on them for next version 20....i wanted to make them more like the Jamaican mountains anyway, not like all the mountains that everyone else has on their maps.

7. Why haven;t you added the symbols next to the bonus guide? You've got plenty of space there

OK, I'll give that a go.

8. I know we discussed the colour-scheme previously... the map doesn't cry out modern-Jamaica, but that's because it isn't... The scheme works, although I get a little niggle that makes me want the whole frame to appear gilt in some way... It feels like it should be hung up in a mahogany frame with golden/brass plates golden plates riveted onto it...

Yes the colour scheme was what i asked you to comment on.....
I think placing everything in a gilded frame would distract from the map itself. The island is only small, and there is a lot of real estate for legend, and i think the combination of colours that i have now allows one to overview that island without being distracted by the legend and frame.

That's just my random/idle musings.

Thanks for those musings, i hope you like the changed made from them.

Version 19

Click image to enlarge.