Monsters! - Battle for the Powerstones

[dolomite13]

I have pose the question about starting positions in the foundry and if in fact I can make the map do what I wanted I will change the gameplay to have 8 start positions and 16 random monster drops. Otherwise we will use the 8 start positions described in this post

viewtopic.php?f=127&t=68154&view=unread#p2053643

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I wanted to assign the 8 wizards to players and then dole out the monsters randomly however it has been explained ot me that the game engine wouldn't work that way in games that weren't 2,4, or 8 player games. The remaining wizard(s) would be added to the monsters and then all randomly assigned. I am now of the opinion that I need to make the map work more like the "New World" deployment.

Here is what would happen with 8 wizards and 16 monsters on the starting drop.



In a 2 player game
- both players would have 4 wizards each.
- both players would have 8 monsters each.

In a 3 player game
- all players would have 3 wizards each with 2 remainder added to 16 monsters.
- all players would have 6 of the remaining territories (wizards and monsters).

In a 4 player game
- all players would have 2 wizards each.
- all players would have 4 monsters each.

In a 5 player game
- all players would have 1 wizard each with 3 remainder added to 16 monsters.
- all players would have 3 of the remaining territories (wizards and monsters).
- 4 of the remaining territories would be assigned as neutral (wizards and monsters).

In a 6 player game
- all players would have 1 wizard each with 2 remainder added to 16 monsters.
- all players would have 3 of the remaining territories (wizards and monsters).

In a 7 player game
- all players would have 1 wizard each with 1 remaining added to 16 monsters.
- all players would have 3 of the remaining territories (wizards and monsters).
- The 1 remaining territories would be assigned as neutral (wizards and monsters).

In a 8 player game
- all players would have 1 wizards each.
- all players would have 2 monsters each.

SO....

I am going back to 8 starting positions for now and will be looking at the extra bonus for holding wizards so that they become a valuable target (see poll).

Starting locations on wizards only.

2 player game - 4 wizards each.
3 player game - 2 wizards each 2 neutral wizards.
4 player game - 2 wizards each.
5 player game - 1 wizard each 3 neutral wizards.
6 player game - 1 wizard each 2 neutral wizards.
7 player game - 1 wizard each 1 neutral wizards.
8 player game - 1 wizard each.



--D

[dolomite13]

In honor of being spotlighted in the Foundry Newsletter I spent a few hours updating the maps.

- Small map size changed from 600x600 to 630x600.
- Large map size increased form 800x800 to 820x800.
- Black edges added to monsters and wizards to make them stand out better and for a more cartoon-like feel.
- Legend updates to include wizard bonus of +2 (currently being polled).
- Some small tweks were made to image positions.

NOTE: these maps will not work with the current XML. I will be tweaking the locations this week.

SMALL



LARGE

Click image to enlarge.

[dolomite13]

So that I have a solid basis for the XML I have decided that the current gameplay as posted in post #1 is now "locked" to prevent further scope creep. This means that I am still open to suggestions from the community and requests for changes from the foundry staff but I am considering it solid enough that when I finish the XML the map will be ready for review by the foundry crew.

Thank you to everyone who posted comments and suggestions you have contributed so much to the creation of this map and I appreciate all of your help. This map has turned out far better than I could have imagined and I am happy that it has stayed true to my vision.

Now off to finish the XML I go. I almost have the coordinates tweaked for the large map and will finish that and start on the small map this afternoon =)

--D

[sully800]

I haven't been keeping up, but your wizards look awesome! The faces fit much better with the bodies now, which makes them look very sharp. Sorry you haven't been getting a lot of comments, but I promise to read everything and give you a more technical review soon

[gimil]

So that I have a solid basis for the XML I have decided that the current gameplay as posted in post #1 is now "locked" to prevent further scope creep.

Sorry mate but you can't really 'lock' your gameplay until iancanton or another stamp has stamped and passed your gameplay .

That said your map does look awesome and unique. The only problem I have just now is that the names on the monsters are to small and a little tedious to read. I think they need to be increased a few pts for the comfort of the player.

[dolomite13]

So that I have a solid basis for the XML I have decided that the current gameplay as posted in post #1 is now "locked" to prevent further scope creep.

Sorry mate but you can't really 'lock' your gameplay until iancanton or another stamp has stamped and passed your gameplay .

Sure I can. The whole statement I made says I am still open to changes from the community and foundry staff. But I will not be the source of changes anymore the map and gameplay are solid in my mind so no more changes from me. Just from other peoples suggestions and foundry requests. =)

--D

[oaktown]

Looking fun, as ever dolomite!

I've not been following the gameplay very closely so I won't even touch it... I've just got some clarity issues and some nitpicks. The clarity issues are not meant to nitpick the play of the map so much as to point out what doesn't make sense to somebody (like myself) who is looking at this for perhaps the first time. First the clarity issues...

• The Special Monster symbols could stand to be a bit more obvious, especially on the small map. The little rune next to "Special Monsters" in the legend doesn't look like much of anything.
• I read that you get "+3 for each Powerstone" and "+2 for each additional Powerstone" - in addition to what? So the first one is +3,and then the second one is +5, giving you a total of +8 for two powerstones? Or is the first one +3 and each one after that is only +2?
• In fact, many of the bonuses are unclear. I see that you get +1 for every three monsters - is that in addition to the +2 for every special monster? What I mean by that is do the special monsters count toward accruing sets of three monsters?
• Odd that wizards give a +3 and a +2. Seems like if you're going to have a special section of the legend devoted to explaining the Wizards that is where you should note the +2 bonus that they get so players will understand that they receive both.
• What is a Wizard Shield? This isn't explained anywhere.
• Confusing that you have "Powers" and "Powerstones" - and that nowhere do you show or tell us what a Powerstone is or looks like. Maybe you could change "Powers" to "Spells"? And for clarity you could write "Spells" in the left and right columns above and lose the line that tells us where they are. Always better to show than to tell.
• How, exactly, does one attack a Power (or spell)?
• The mind blast attack doesn't make sense at all - what's a range of six? Six what?
• I know its kind of a drag, but you may want to note somewhere how monsters attack each other... I assume any two things that touch border each other? Can Powerstones attack out? Does Jeo border Cryma?

Nitpicks:

• "Aattack" is spelled wrong.
• If you're going to end some of the legend lines with periods you should end all of them with periods.
• Monster names are difficult to read on the small map... maybe the names are distinct enough that this won't be an issue though.
• Yesha is pretty close to the Brago title - somebody could easily attack the wrong one.

And I lied; now that I've looked at the last few posts I have a gameplay concern: with all of the bonuses, you will have to carefully consider what territories are handed out to begin the game. If your description of the starts in the first post is accurate (see below) and up to date, P1 is going to have 13 armies to place to start the game, which should be enough to knock out a lot of P2's monsters: advantage p1.

Maybe this has already been mentioned in the thread, but could you clarify your number of starts? 16 randomly assigned monsters don't go 8 and 8 in a 1v1 game; they'd go 5 and 5 with 6 neutral. And in a three player game each would get 5 monsters and two wizards, not 6 and 3.

[dolomite13]

Thanx Oaktown... I will read thru what you posted and make some changes I love the feedback. =)

Anyway after taking a long hot shower (my thinking time) and thinking about bonuses I think that I would like to decrease the amount of bonuses a bit. I still want wizards worth something but I am not sure what to do about that.

-------------------------------------------------

I might do the following. Please give feedback.

Bonus Forces
+1 for every 3 monsters (includes special monsters). [note: minimum is set to 1]
+2 for each special monster.
+3 for each powerstone.

Deployment
- Wizards autodeploy 3 each turn.
- Powerstones autodeploy 3 each turn.
- Shields reset to 15 when controlled.
- Spells reset to 3 when controlled.

Powers
Each powerstone has 2 "spell" locations detailed below.
- Mind Blast: This spell can attack any special monster up to 6 territories from its powerstone.
- Lightning Bolt" This spell can bombard any powerstone or shield up to 8 territories from its powerstone.

-------------------------------------------------

Starts
As for starts I was under the impression the formula was number of unassigned territories divided by number of players with the remainder set to neutral. If the math below is in error could someone point to a post where I can learn how the math works?

8 wizards (set as starting territories in xml with forced neutral 1)
16 monsters (set with no forced neutral in xml)
XML - http://www.bigottergames.com/downloads/monsters5.xml

2 players
Wizards - (8/2=4) - each player would have 4 wizards.
Monsters - (16/2=8) - each player would have 8 monsters.

3 players
Wizards - (8/3=2 [2]) - each player would have 2 wizards and 2 would be set to neutral.
Monsters - (16/3=5 [1]) - each player would have 5 monsters and 1 would be set to neutral.

4 players
Wizards - (8/4=2) - each player would have 2 wizards.
Monsters - (16/4=4) - each player would have 4 monsters.

5 players
Wizards - (8/5=1 [3]) - each player would have 1 wizard and 3 would be set to neutral.
Monsters - (16/5=3 [1]) - each player would have 3 monsters and 1 would be set to neutral.

6 players
Wizards - (8/6=1 [2]) - each player would have 1 wizard and 2 would be set to neutral.
Monsters - (16/6=2 [4]) - each player would have 2 monsters and 4 would be set to neutral.

7 players
Wizards - (8/7=1 [1]) - each player would have 1 wizard and 1 would be set to neutral.
Monsters - (16/7=2 [2]) - each player would have 2 monsters and 2 would be set to neutral.

8 players
Wizards - (8/8=1) - each player would have 1 wizard.
Monsters - (16/2=2) - each player would have 2 monsters.

-------------------------------------------------

I now have a nice to-do list =)

I am off to brunch with my girlfriend and then I have a patio to clean and a BBQ grill to assemble. Catch you all later =)

--D

[dolomite13]

I have been thinking about the map's gameplay quite a bit. And I have a few radical ideas to throw your way.

New Map Connections

I propose moving a few monsters to create gaps in the map. Think of it as islands. They would only be traversable via the spells in the powerstones. The map would consist of 4 islands, Each island would have 12 monsters, 2 of which would be "special monsters" and 4 of which would be random start positions.



Starting Forces

Starting forces for powerstones would be reduced from 10 to 5 to make them easier to take control of.
Starting forces (and reset values) for shields would drop from 15 to 10 to again make them easier to conquer and reach the wizard.

Spells

The "spells" of the powerstone are interesting but it isn't necessary to use them at all. I would like to find a way to do that. So I have a few changes that might help.

- Mind Blast: This spell can attack any special monster. - Increasing the range would allow you to skip over to other "islands" of monsters.

- Lightning Bolt" This spell can bombard any powerstone or shield. - The range restriction removal on this one would make it much more useful.

Bonus Forces
+1 for every 3 monsters (includes special monsters). [note: minimum is set to 1]
+2 for each special monster.
+3 for each powerstone.

Deployment
- Wizards autodeploy 3 each turn.
- Powerstones autodeploy 3 each turn. (making it easier to use the spells)
- Shields reset to 10 when controlled.
- Spells reset to 3 when controlled.

That is all a lot to munch on ... but I think it would make for a much more fun map and gameplay experience.

Please Leave Feedback.

--D

[dolomite13]

Here is the newest map based on the changes proposed in the previous post.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3387/363 ... ddcf_o.png

I still want to add some clarification on how the monsters on the map connect ti each other (by overlapping) and maybe change the flavor text to explain why as a powerful wizard you are limited to mind controlling monsters that are adjacent to ones you already control.

Anyway there we go =)

--D

[dolomite13]

OK because of a power outage I got the day off from work and spent the past 4 hours working on the map.

I addressed the concerns about the legend explaining the gameplay as well as reworded the flavor text to include a reason why you arent as powerful of a wizard as you thought. And after breaking the map up into 4 segments I added some "lava" as an effect on the map to help make it easier to see the 4 segments.

This does mean however that all of the previous work I did on XML and the small version of the map is scrapped and I will need to start over on that.

This is all of the changes I will be making outside of what is suggested by the foundry visitors and staff. And this time I mean it =)

--D

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3311/363 ... f013_o.png

Click image to enlarge.

[gimil]

I have a little problem with the title I think dolomite13. Probable because it is flat while the rest of the map is moe 3D. That is the most part of my major concerns thou.

Keep up the good work!

[dolomite13]

I hadn't even thought to make the map title more 3d.

How about this =)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3539/364 ... f889_o.png

[TaCktiX]

In proper fantasy-writing parlance, I think it's be more appropriate to address the "Caverns of Power" as such, and the "Powerstones" as important objects. You've got space, and it'll bring out the Excessive Capitalization of most fantasy objects.

[dolomite13]

In proper fantasy-writing parlance, I think it's be more appropriate to address the "Caverns of Power" as such, and the "Powerstones" as important objects. You've got space, and it'll bring out the Excessive Capitalization of most fantasy objects.

Good point =)

I will do that with the next rev...

I am currently working on the small version of the current map. As soon as it is done I will post both again and begin the work to recreate the XML one more time

Thanx TaCktiX.

==D

[dolomite13]

Here are the latest maps.

I think the fonts might still need tweaking on the small map.

SMALL

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3320/366 ... cbca_o.png



LARGE

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3568/366 ... a4bc_o.png

Click image to enlarge.

==D

[gimil]

The new 3D title looks fab dolomite13, really helps to finish off your map.

[AndyDufresne]

You've misspelled corresponding in the Powerstones description in the bottom legend.

As for the top description, I'd consider replacing "powerful wizard" with something like "legendary wizard" or "honored wizard" or "barbarous wizard" or "illustrious wizard" etc---just because you already use "power" in some form or another all over the map the begin with! Even the "Caverns of Power" could use a thesaurus spruce as well.

And I know the naming system has been discussed some---but I can't remember if this idea was proposed earlier: right now you've got it an Alphabetical clockwise order. While this is functional, I'm wondering if it a naming system where all the monsters associated with a special monster, had their names start with the same initial letter. For instance, then, all the monsters that surround Rog would start with an R, around Bek, a B, and so forth. This might improve the mind's connection of the dropdown menu to the position on the map.

Just a thought, at least.


--Andy

[dolomite13]

You've misspelled corresponding in the Powerstones description in the bottom legend.

As for the top description, I'd consider replacing "powerful wizard" with something like "legendary wizard" or "honored wizard" or "barbarous wizard" or "illustrious wizard" etc---just because you already use "power" in some form or another all over the map the begin with! Even the "Caverns of Power" could use a thesaurus spruce as well.

And I know the naming system has been discussed some---but I can't remember if this idea was proposed earlier: right now you've got it an Alphabetical clockwise order. While this is functional, I'm wondering if it a naming system where all the monsters associated with a special monster, had their names start with the same initial letter. For instance, then, all the monsters that surround Rog would start with an R, around Bek, a B, and so forth. This might improve the mind's connection of the dropdown menu to the position on the map.
--Andy

Thanx I will definitely look into all of this. It is sort of ironic that as soon as I finished the xml I saw your idea about renaming all the monsters. I will give it some thought but I do believe that it might be the way to go.

--D

[dolomite13]

Latest XML

Map Maker - http://www.conquerclub.com/mapmaker/index.php
XML - http://www.bigottergames.com/downloads/monsters7.xml
Small - http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3320/366 ... cbca_o.png (v0_13_7)
Large - http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3568/366 ... a4bc_o.png (v0_13_7)

--D

[dolomite13]

I made a few changes to the map.

- Changed "powerful wizards" to "honored wizard"
- Fixed the typo with "corresponding"
- Renamed monsters as Andy suggested.
- Changed the font used on monster and wizard names to make the letter "G" and "C" distinguishable from each other.

Now just need to update the names in the next XML later today.

==D

Small (v0_13_8)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3392/366 ... f2a3_o.png



Large (v0_13_8)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3402/366 ... 4940_o.png

Click image to enlarge.

[dolomite13]

Latest XML

http://www.bigottergames.com/downloads/monsters8.xml

Latest maps with colorblind filters applied.

Deuteranope - http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2472/367 ... 6ca5_o.png
Protanope - http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2454/367 ... f02c_o.png

88's Applied
small - http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2591/367 ... ed13_o.png
large - http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2508/367 ... 5398_o.png

888's Applied
small - http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2471/367 ... e6f7_o.png
large - http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2561/367 ... 0fdf_o.png

OK now we have what I would consider the most up to date map, xml, and gameplay.

I believe that this should address any and all concerns thus far....

I am happy with how this map has turned out and have my fingers crossed that I see some stamps soon =)

Comments, Questions, Suggestions?

==D

[Dexsting]

Just a small idea you can take or leave as it looks like you have room in that line to add the three words; to be 100% clear to all, you could say, "Win by defeating your opponents or controlling all 8 powerstones for one round."

[Dexsting]

I like the looks of this map and looking forward to playing it; as such, started looking at it more, and thought, why not make suggestions? lol. Just minor things if you agree they might be good too.

Could you move the pupils of each wizard so they're looking at the monster that's they're fighting? I think that'd make it look more real as the monsters are fighting their shileds and they're fighting the monsters. PS. I LOVE the expressions on the wizards faces.

Have you thought of having a drain on the spells? So like after your casting a spell it exhausts you and they get -2 or revert to neutral or something of that sort?

When you get +1 for every three monsters, does that mean only the 'normal' monsters? Or could you have 2 monsters and a special monster to get +3 (three monsters = +1 and special monster = +2). Maybe you could call them normal monsters in the legend to distinguish...or 'weak' monsters? Actually, it might be nice to call the 'special monsters' 'strong monsters' instead and then call the other ones 'weak monsters'. So you have a battle with honorable wizards, power stones, strong and weak monsters rather than just monsters where some are special. heh, I just realized the 'strong' monsters are considered vunerable to your mind control so they might seem like the 'weak' ones...hrmmm...maybe make up for it by saying that the "strongest monsters are vunerable to a wizard's mind control" (because of thier bonuses I think they're supposed to be the strongest).

It seems to me that the wizards after the first turn are just going to be fortifying the autodeployed armies wherever needed and not really doing anything...maybe they could also bombard a powerstone to give them something else they can do? If so, maybe bombarding a powerstone that is on the opposite side of them rather than their own. That might help too, other than using powerstones, if someone's powerful and has half the map, the odd person against that guy on the other side of the map has to rely on the adjacent people to stop him or using the powerstone...Just a thought.

Finally, wow this is a lot, please don't think I'm critisising, I really like this map, and just trying to help out with ideas to think about. The way the spells are positioned on the sides it can sometimes seem like you need to attack the mind spell and then attack the lighting spell from the mind spell (I know the legend says otherwise, but graphically, I see it and just instinctively think that way...) Maybe putting the numbered powerstone in the middle of the two spells would help that out?

Let me know if you want me to clarify anything, and I hope this helps!

-Dexsting

[dolomite13]

Just a small idea you can take or leave as it looks like you have room in that line to add the three words; to be 100% clear to all, you could say, "Win by defeating your opponents or controlling all 8 powerstones for one round."

Thought that was pretty much a given but I will give that some consideration.

Could you move the pupils of each wizard so they're looking at the monster that's they're fighting? I think that'd make it look more real as the monsters are fighting their shileds and they're fighting the monsters. PS. I LOVE the expressions on the wizards faces.

Possibly, but I sort of like that they are looking all over the place as they are being surrounded by monsters from all sides.

Have you thought of having a drain on the spells? So like after your casting a spell it exhausts you and they get -2 or revert to neutral or something of that sort?

It is supposed to say that they reset to 3 when controlled. But somehow that got missed in the last rev. I will fix that in the next map rev.

When you get +1 for every three monsters, does that mean only the 'normal' monsters? Or could you have 2 monsters and a special monster to get +3 (three monsters = +1 and special monster = +2). Maybe you could call them normal monsters in the legend to distinguish...or 'weak' monsters? Actually, it might be nice to call the 'special monsters' 'strong monsters' instead and then call the other ones 'weak monsters'. So you have a battle with honorable wizards, power stones, strong and weak monsters rather than just monsters where some are special. heh, I just realized the 'strong' monsters are considered vunerable to your mind control so they might seem like the 'weak' ones...hrmmm...maybe make up for it by saying that the "strongest monsters are vunerable to a wizard's mind control" (because of thier bonuses I think they're supposed to be the strongest).

Actually it is all monsters (regular and special) I will consider revising the text to explain that better.

It seems to me that the wizards after the first turn are just going to be fortifying the autodeployed armies wherever needed and not really doing anything...maybe they could also bombard a powerstone to give them something else they can do? If so, maybe bombarding a powerstone that is on the opposite side of them rather than their own. That might help too, other than using powerstones, if someone's powerful and has half the map, the odd person against that guy on the other side of the map has to rely on the adjacent people to stop him or using the powerstone...Just a thought.

Well the wizards are weakened by the magic in the caverns so I wanted to limit them to attacking the special monsters until they get control of a powerstone. The +3 autodeploy is to make sure you don't forget to keep control of your wizard. Maybe I could require that you have control of one wizard and the 8 powerstones to win?

The way the spells are positioned on the sides it can sometimes seem like you need to attack the mind spell and then attack the lighting spell from the mind spell (I know the legend says otherwise, but graphically, I see it and just instinctively think that way...) Maybe putting the numbered powerstone in the middle of the two spells would help that out?

Interesting idea, I will play around with the graphics and see if I like that.

Finally, wow this is a lot, please don't think I'm critisising, I really like this map, and just trying to help out with ideas to think about.

I welcome constructive criticism and this was wonderful. Thank you so much for your comments =)

==D