Share Your Opinion! -- The Map Foundry: Stamp of Approval?

[RjBeals]

You say you want input, and when the input doesn't match what you would have liked, simply belittle, or ignore it.

you shouldn't generalize. I rarely ask for input. People come and comment. I take all comments into consideration, and if it's a good one, then I apply it. If it's not a good one, then I tell why I don't think so. If there's no comments, then I continue with the map on my own terms. If it sits long enough, people will either comment, or a ca (cartography assistant) will post whats holding it up, or advance it.

[gimil]

exactly what i said, and i was told that gimil was just stating his opinion and had as much right to his opinion as i have to mine. they don't get that if you ask for opinions and are trying to change something. THEN LISTEN.

Are you assuming I asked for this thread? That I asked for these opinions? I didn't. I had no part in this community opinion other than being a community member with my own opinion. My purpose of being present in this thread was to say my part. Not observe what people say in order create a solution to whatever problem may be present.

[Timminz]

You say you want input, and when the input doesn't match what you would have liked, simply belittle, or ignore it.

you shouldn't generalize. I rarely ask for input. People come and comment. I take all comments into consideration, and if it's a good one, then I apply it. If it's not a good one, then I tell why I don't think so. If there's no comments, then I continue with the map on my own terms. If it sits long enough, people will either comment, or a ca (cartography assistant) will post whats holding it up, or advance it.

And for someone with the experience and talent of rjbeals, that makes sense, but surely you don't mean to imply that the foundry, as a whole, does not ask for input? If that's what you're saying, then perhaps the cartos would be happier if the foundry were a private forum?

[owenshooter]

The truth of the matter is that we don't suffer fools (or trolls) gladly in the foundry.

If people want to see a change, then they need to be the change.

and now the flaming begins... what a shocker... the foundry, a classy place where everyone is welcome.-0

[MrBenn]

One of the foundry standards is that all input should be addressed. Between the legitimate concerns about people not getting enough feedback, and people's frustrations with the speed/nit-picking of the process, there is a "perception" of elitism.

I use the quotes, because it is only a perception. Everybody is held to the same standards, and even experienced mapmakers have frustrations with the process. The question shouldn't be a matter of whether there is or isn't elitism, but what can be done to combat the perception of it.

And for someone with the experience and talent of rjbeals, that makes sense,

Are you suggesting that (somebody like) RJ should be held to a different standard?

[Timminz]

And for someone with the experience and talent of rjbeals, that makes sense,

Are you suggesting that (somebody like) RJ should be held to a different standard?

Are you purposely taking me out of context? That's called trolling. For the sake of not arguing, I'll just assume that that's actually what you thought I was suggesting, and I'll clarify for you.

What I meant was that it makes sense that he (as an individual) does not ask for input, whereas the foundry (as a whole) does. In no way, shape, or form was I suggesting that he should not listen to the input he does receive.

[gimil]

You say you want input, and when the input doesn't match what you would have liked, simply belittle, or ignore it.

you shouldn't generalize. I rarely ask for input. People come and comment. I take all comments into consideration, and if it's a good one, then I apply it. If it's not a good one, then I tell why I don't think so. If there's no comments, then I continue with the map on my own terms. If it sits long enough, people will either comment, or a ca (cartography assistant) will post whats holding it up, or advance it.

And for someone with the experience and talent of rjbeals, that makes sense, but surely you don't mean to imply that the foundry, as a whole, does not ask for input? If that's what you're saying, then perhaps the cartos would be happier if the foundry were a private forum?

I don't speak for the entire foundry tim. I only speak for myself and what I think. Unfortuantly I don't really feel like saying what I think because when I do I get bashed as an elitist who doesn't listen to what others have to say. Even thou I don't actually fully diagree with what most are saying, jsut some aspects of it.

How is the one that isn't listen? Because it certainly isn't me.

[owenshooter]

Seriously, it was very nice of you guys to ask for opinions. Maybe next time you can be receptive to them.

This thread is a perfect example of how the foundry process appears to me (and many others, apparently). You say you want input, and when the input doesn't match what you would have liked, simply belittle, or ignore it.

*cough* *cough*... EXACTLY... they just don't get it. you can sum up the foundry experience for most people that venture into it within this one thread. this is so typical and standard, it is just a joke. even better, people that are stating valid opinions and asking foundry regulars to listen instead of argue, are being called fools and trolls.. hmmm, i believe that is baiting and i know i would receive a 3 day vacation for that (once again, the moderation double standard pops up)...

this thread/newsletter/foundry deal is worthless. input and opinions are not wanted. they simply want to hear how wonderful it is and how we don't go in there because we are trolls and fools and won't be suffered. funny, they won't suffer GD regulars in there, but they post their maps and updates in the GD on a regular basis, against the rules and go so far as to throw up the "community newsletter" to shove the foundry further down our throats. if i were a GD regular that had never gone into the foundery, this is what i would walk away with: the foundry is not a fun place. the foundry is not a welcoming place. the foundry is full of arrogance. the foundry does not want fresh insight or opinions. the foundry is not going to change. the foundry doesn't want to listen to opinions despite asking for them...-0

p.s.-"revolution"? that was hilarious... the foundry newsletter asked for opinions and it is turned into a GD revolution against the foundry... ridiculous...

p.p.s.-mr. benn, the trolling accusations are tired. if you can't tangle, go back to the foundry where people may quake when they see your blue name.

[chipv]

I voted unwelcoming because that's exactly how I still feel about it despite doing numerous things to help the Foundry, most of which but not all had little support. I agree with Timminz in that it is important for Foundry members to listen to people's comments in here rather than dismiss them if it doesn't sound particularly complimentary - is that not the point of the thread?

Having said all that, what comes out of the Foundry is superb so the mapmaking mechanism and also the staff are clearly working beautifully and probably doesn't need input from every single member of CC. As for the organisation of the forums and threads within, that's another matter, we will probably see people mention the futility of posting in a huge thread that almost certainly has had the same point mentioned already and navigation can be somewhat overwhelming (take this as constructive) hence some of the Map Projects.

[jiminski]

The first two pages of this thread can be summarised thusly:

jiminski - was a good foundry contributor who got pissed off by the Brazil revamp.
squishyg - feels a little intimidated by long threads, doesn't feel he has anything to contribute beyond a certain point
sinctheassassin - feels that nobody cares about the foundry or shows their interest by posting
Danyael - would like more people to comment on maps
sully800 - there are over 100 maps on the site, and there aren't too many niches left to fill
jiminski - some maps gain cult following, but first-timers are likely to struggle to gain recognition
gimil - experienced mapmakers gain support by virtue of being good at making maps
jiminski - determination is vital until you are able to gain a reputation
Woodruff - Had a map idea that was pretty much ignored, and feels non-welcomed as a non-regular
owenshooter - fed up with the foundry being stuffed down people's throats; says few people venture back after visiting
mibi - retired from mapmaking, and there are too many maps to bother to comment on
Bruceswar - Regulars are praised/thanked, newcomers are criticised and never return, so the same people comment on map after map.
gimil - the foundry has its share of problems, but elitism isn't one of them
Bruceswar - everybody has to start somewhere. The foundry process is too anal over small details and is pretty backwards.
sully800 - the process is too long and tedious. The main thing that would help are more comments from more people who stick around
gimil - The 'anality' helps produce high quality maps. Increased quality by being anal is not going backwards. would like the foundry process tightened/sped up and but can't think of a viable solution without reducing quality
owenshooter - where was the tough love for Puget Sound (et al), which should have spent longer in the foundry getting more input. the foundry is elitist and is not inviting. it is a wonderful place that is fun to visit and poke around but the regulars seem to drive fresh faces away in droves
gimil - there are some people who's opinion holds more weight with me, becasue they know what they're talking about. most people in the foundry only aim to contribute to the site
samuelc812 - people get frustrated with the process in the most part because they don't have the graphic ability or their idea is not appealing to the community. perserverance is the key. try picking a promising map that you like provide feedback and be helpful
owenshooter - you are not interested in listening, just like in the foundry. if you ask for an opinion, you should let people give their opinions
samuelc812 - Just because you state your opinion does not mean everyone has to conform and start to have the same opinion.
jbrettlip - you guys are unable to see why nobody goes to the foundry, you are too arrogant to see it. this is exactly why people avoid the foundry.
RjBeals - the foundry has waves of activity depending on who is active. I don't know why people think the foundry is full of snobs. There's lots of ideas posted every week. If there's nobody there to tell these people how it really is, you'd be playing on worse maps than Puget Sound.
owenshooter - the foundry has a very poor reputation in the forums. it is a terrible place to venture into fresh faced and bright eyed if you think you are going to be able to freely speak. the foundry is a good ol' boys club

It looks like there was some fair discussion before owen, brett and gimil jumped in with all guns blazing...

good summary Mr B,

you missed my point on buddy system to ensure at least one respected commenter to bounce off for new map makers. .. (it was really the only reason i mentioned the word 'cult' at all; to say that although some maps get good lip-service due to reputation, the new fellows can just fade into obscurity.)

personally i did not find the foundry elitist .. (except maybe the first times i ventured in after the classic revamp but i was very vocal about that, heh some funny stuff in there having read back through ; ) ) i suppose i've been around a while and i'm quite gobby, sometimes up for a little verbal tussle if push comes to shove. But most people who want to start a new map are not ardent lovers of postal ruckus, many are just in it to make something pretty that they can play on.... If the brand new map maker does not have either an 'edge' or the patience of a saint, they can easily lose heart in finishing a map. Now I don't think the foundry is worse than any other forum. I think actually in most ways it is better suited to action than the other forums. Having tried to get ideas off the ground in Suggestions and Bugs, christ! now that is institutionally a waste of time, filled will trolls and tossers.

The Foundry does not take criticism well, (heheh i can hear them bristling now) i fully understand why. It is slave labour, filled with people who organise themselves for the love of the site and aesthetics, criticised by people who never visit or contribute. (i think map makers should be paid if their maps are quenched)
I get that and i tried to rectify that in my own small way by going to comment there.

I was put off going there by a very specific case, in that Revamps do not follow normal Foundry protocol. The opinion on the Brazil revamp was put to the broader community, voted on in record numbers and the ideal situation of including all the site in a map was finally achieved. There was a huge influx of discussion and excitement and it looked as though the foundry had reached its zenith: fantastic maps; a buzz in the forum and a broader audience!

They blew it royally and nearly lost one of the finest artists on the site in the process. Now if they could get it right in the future, it was a beautiful blueprint for how things could work in a more mainstream format.. maybe.

[Woodruff]

If a new map maker has a crap map/crap skills their is two distinct paths that can been took:
1. Some has to tell them that the idea sucks and that their time will be better spent on an idea that is more likely to work. This leads many people to get pissy and leave, or
2. You let then get on with it and they complain they don't get enought attention and that the foundry is elitist.

You haven't yet responded to the point I made regarding this statement that you made previously. Were you going to?

The most annoying part of this is all the people getting on their high horse that the foundry has all these problems. Even thou the rest of these forums are full of trolls, flamers and people who push the limits, alot of the time for the sake of being annoying. Most people in the foundry only aim to contibute to this site.

I absolutely agree with this last sentence, and I generally agree with the rest of the paragraph. However, if it weren't for teh elitism that is RAMPANT in the Foundry, there would be an even greater number to fill that last sentence of yours.

[Woodruff]

if the foundry's job is to make great maps, then it does a great job. Y'all GD'ers should be grateful and bow down before us, lest we hit you with a Crossword revamp.

Heh...well, on the bright side, I'm not sure it could get any WORSE. <grin>

[gimil]

If a new map maker has a crap map/crap skills their is two distinct paths that can been took:
1. Some has to tell them that the idea sucks and that their time will be better spent on an idea that is more likely to work. This leads many people to get pissy and leave, or
2. You let then get on with it and they complain they don't get enought attention and that the foundry is elitist.

You haven't yet responded to the point I made regarding this statement that you made previously. Were you going to?

What point was it ruff? I must have missed it.

The most annoying part of this is all the people getting on their high horse that the foundry has all these problems. Even thou the rest of these forums are full of trolls, flamers and people who push the limits, alot of the time for the sake of being annoying. Most people in the foundry only aim to contibute to this site.

I absolutely agree with this last sentence, and I generally agree with the rest of the paragraph. However, if it weren't for teh elitism that is RAMPANT in the Foundry, there would be an even greater number to fill that last sentence of yours.[/quote]

Do you mean that if there was no elite their would be more people to contribute if their was on elite class? I am not sure this is correct. I learned how to make a map and how to conduct myself from obverving others who were better than me. In many senses elitism is classed as constricitve but I always had the idea that in an artisit enviroment you need people better than you (elite) in order to learn. Would the foundry be able to produce the quality it does without elite? If there was more people commenting at a lesser quality would we make better or worst maps?

I am not sure I can agree with you here either spok, I always know that the foundry has needed more people to visit but not at the expense of experience and expert knowledge, which the 'elite' have.

Unless I have misinterpritated what you were saying?

[Woodruff]

*cough* *cough*... EXACTLY... they just don't get it. you can sum up the foundry experience for most people that venture into it within this one thread. this is so typical and standard, it is just a joke. even better, people that are stating valid opinions and asking foundry regulars to listen instead of argue, are being called fools and trolls.. hmmm, i believe that is baiting and i know i would receive a 3 day vacation for that (once again, the moderation double standard pops up)...

Honestly, as someone who's pretty strongly on your "side" in this discussion...I didn't think MrBenn's statement there was baiting or a flame of any sort.

this thread/newsletter/foundry deal is worthless. input and opinions are not wanted. they simply want to hear how wonderful it is and how we don't go in there because we are trolls and fools and won't be suffered.

Given that Andy was the one that requested it and not the Foundry folks, I'm willing to give it the rope it needs to continue in a productive manner. I think you'd mistaken on this one, since that was clearly NOT the reason it was started.

[mibi]

Can't we all just have a banana.

[Woodruff]

If a new map maker has a crap map/crap skills their is two distinct paths that can been took:
1. Some has to tell them that the idea sucks and that their time will be better spent on an idea that is more likely to work. This leads many people to get pissy and leave, or
2. You let then get on with it and they complain they don't get enought attention and that the foundry is elitist.

You haven't yet responded to the point I made regarding this statement that you made previously. Were you going to?

What point was it ruff? I must have missed it.

Ok, here it is:

I have to respectfully disagree with you here jim. That may seem the case but from an inside perspective I have noticed that probably everyone who has this opinion that the foundry is cultist place where you get better attention is your established tends to come from people whos map idea or graphical skills suck.

If that were the case, then I should have been able to get plenty of people to tell me my map idea sucked. But I couldn't even get that! Perhaps being someone that's "on the inside", you're no longer able to see the perspective of the new map-idea-submitter (I don't mean this to sound insulting, but I'm not sure how to word it in a more friendly manner)?

The most annoying part of this is all the people getting on their high horse that the foundry has all these problems. Even thou the rest of these forums are full of trolls, flamers and people who push the limits, alot of the time for the sake of being annoying. Most people in the foundry only aim to contibute to this site.

I absolutely agree with this last sentence, and I generally agree with the rest of the paragraph. However, if it weren't for teh elitism that is RAMPANT in the Foundry, there would be an even greater number to fill that last sentence of yours.

Do you mean that if there was no elite their would be more people to contribute if their was on elite class?

No. The last sentence for which there would be an even greater number to fill was "Most people in the forum only aim to contribute to this site".

I am not sure this is correct. I learned how to make a map and how to conduct myself from obverving others who were better than me.

Well that certainly doesn't sound elitist. <ahem> Yes, I understand you didn't mean it that way AND I absolutely understand the accuracy of the statement. However, to presume that a new mapmaker ISN'T already very highly skilled with graphics is...well...

I am not sure I can agree with you here either spok, I always know that the foundry has needed more people to visit but not at the expense of experience and expert knowledge, which the 'elite' have.

I disagree entirely. Bad suggestions are patently obvious and easy enough to contradict rationally. But without a wide variety of interaction, the maps will be unavoidably lesser for it because "thinking outside of the box" almost always comes from those who are either inexperienced or not already locked into "this is how it's done".

Unless I have misinterpritated what you were saying?

Yes...and no. Sort of. <grin>

[gimil]

I have to respectfully disagree with you here jim. That may seem the case but from an inside perspective I have noticed that probably everyone who has this opinion that the foundry is cultist place where you get better attention is your established tends to come from people whos map idea or graphical skills suck.

If that were the case, then I should have been able to get plenty of people to tell me my map idea sucked. But I couldn't even get that! Perhaps being someone that's "on the inside", you're no longer able to see the perspective of the new map-idea-submitter (I don't mean this to sound insulting, but I'm not sure how to word it in a more friendly manner)?

I [think] I may have already mentioned this but the foundry does go through quite spells from time to time. Even when I was a CA I had maps sitting recieving no feedback for days on end. I am not saying that is a soul contributor to NO feeback but more often than not (in my own experience) it is a large part.

The most annoying part of this is all the people getting on their high horse that the foundry has all these problems. Even thou the rest of these forums are full of trolls, flamers and people who push the limits, alot of the time for the sake of being annoying. Most people in the foundry only aim to contibute to this site.

I absolutely agree with this last sentence, and I generally agree with the rest of the paragraph. However, if it weren't for teh elitism that is RAMPANT in the Foundry, there would be an even greater number to fill that last sentence of yours.

SO you mean that if elitism was watered down their would be more room for innovation and thinking outside the box? Rather than a more 'conservative' foundry? I think that is a valid argument. But you could also say that if you remove to much of the elite you risk loosing to much expertise, experience and ability. This is all ultimatly theory based, and doesn't have a right or wrong answer unless tested.

I am not sure this is correct. I learned how to make a map and how to conduct myself from obverving others who were better than me.

Well that certainly doesn't sound elitist. Yes, I understand you didn't mean it that way AND I absolutely understand the accuracy of the statement. However, to presume that a new mapmaker ISN'T as good or better than you is...well...

Let me jsut make it clear (which I don't think I have been doing) I don't denie that the elite exist. I think they are an important part of the process. I also have never assumed that new map makers arn't as good as me. But no matter where you go their will always be some kind of in house knowledge that you need someone to teach you. This is where you need exeprienced people to give you a nudge in the right direction from time to time.

I am not sure I can agree with you here either spok, I always know that the foundry has needed more people to visit but not at the expense of experience and expert knowledge, which the 'elite' have.

I disagree entirely. Bad suggestions are patently obvious and easy enough to contradict rationally. But without a wide variety of interaction, the maps will be unavoidably lesser for it because "thinking outside of the box" almost always comes from those who are either inexperienced or not already locked into "this is how it's done".[/quote]

So am I correct in saying that you think the foundry is also conservative? (this is how it is done). If so I can say with some confidence that the foundry is no stranger to change. There was a huge amount of change in process, system, standard etc in my first 10months as a CA than their was in the month months prior to by appointment. Thats not to say that the foundry still doesn't need to change more but the how thing are done has shifted alot.

[gimil]

Can't we all just have a banana.

Of course some are right, the foundry does have its fair share or arrogant Cartographers. Isn't that right mibi.

[Woodruff]

I have to respectfully disagree with you here jim. That may seem the case but from an inside perspective I have noticed that probably everyone who has this opinion that the foundry is cultist place where you get better attention is your established tends to come from people whos map idea or graphical skills suck.

If that were the case, then I should have been able to get plenty of people to tell me my map idea sucked. But I couldn't even get that! Perhaps being someone that's "on the inside", you're no longer able to see the perspective of the new map-idea-submitter (I don't mean this to sound insulting, but I'm not sure how to word it in a more friendly manner)?

I [think] I may have already mentioned this but the foundry does go through quite spells from time to time. Even when I was a CA I had maps sitting recieving no feedback for days on end. I am not saying that is a soul contributor to NO feeback but more often than not (in my own experience) it is a large part.

Well...it's been nearly 3 months now...doesn't that seem like it's not a timeframe problem?

The most annoying part of this is all the people getting on their high horse that the foundry has all these problems. Even thou the rest of these forums are full of trolls, flamers and people who push the limits, alot of the time for the sake of being annoying. Most people in the foundry only aim to contibute to this site.

I absolutely agree with this last sentence, and I generally agree with the rest of the paragraph. However, if it weren't for teh elitism that is RAMPANT in the Foundry, there would be an even greater number to fill that last sentence of yours.

SO you mean that if elitism was watered down their would be more room for innovation and thinking outside the box? Rather than a more 'conservative' foundry? I think that is a valid argument. But you could also say that if you remove to much of the elite you risk loosing to much expertise, experience and ability. This is all ultimatly theory based, and doesn't have a right or wrong answer unless tested.

I don't think so. I think the elite map-makers (as opposed to the elitists in the Foundry , and yes there is a difference) will still be there with their expertise, experience and ability. And because of their experience and abilities, they won't really see much difference, in my opinion. But removing the elitism would make the NON-elite map-makers (or at least those who are not KNOWN to be elite map-makers yet) far more willing to display the patience needed to get a map through.

I am not sure I can agree with you here either spok, I always know that the foundry has needed more people to visit but not at the expense of experience and expert knowledge, which the 'elite' have.

I disagree entirely. Bad suggestions are patently obvious and easy enough to contradict rationally. But without a wide variety of interaction, the maps will be unavoidably lesser for it because "thinking outside of the box" almost always comes from those who are either inexperienced or not already locked into "this is how it's done".

So am I correct in saying that you think the foundry is also conservative? (this is how it is done).

I do believe the Foundry to be conservative in the sense that they are very careful to try to get a map to "perfection" before quenching it. And I consider that a good thing. I'm not sure if that's what you're referring to by "conservative" or not though.

If so I can say with some confidence that the foundry is no stranger to change. There was a huge amount of change in process, system, standard etc in my first 10months as a CA than their was in the month months prior to by appointment. Thats not to say that the foundry still doesn't need to change more but the how thing are done has shifted alot.

That's good. But I'm not really speaking of "process" at all (others probably are in the thread). I'm speaking of "attitude and perception", particularly from the perspective of the new potential mapmaker.

[whitestazn88]

not gonna read the thread, but i am a regular foundry goer.

i've slowed down recently, but i think its still an interesting place, and i think for the most part opinions are heard. its fun helping develop a map

[owenshooter]

not gonna read the thread

thanks for stopping by!!-0

[gimil]

I think with new people it is a case of you win some you loose some ruff. I never was a regular in the early development (my role was to check graphical standards later on) but I could probably list of good bunch of maps that went through the foundry just fine with first time map makers. Actually at the moment (I think) most maps in development are under production by first time map makers. Dont cite me though I would need to double check. If that doesn't show a good attitude to new map makers I don't know what does.

In terms of being conservative in the sense that a map has to look perfect. That isn't part of any elitist culture all maps are expected to reach a stage of community satisfaction but that doesn't mean that a new map maker need to make a map to widowmakers quality. As long as the community is satisfied with what you have produced and that it is of an acceptable standard your map will advance.

[Bruceswar]

Here is the root of the problem. It is not that people are less or some are elitist. It is how you present yourself. I am part of 2 forums on the same subject. Rivals a bit. 1 Forum makes you feel warm and welcome every time you stop in. The other makes you feel weak and useless to many people. Post on both, since I like the hobby. My post count is reflected in how each board is. 7800 post on the warm feeling. 2800 post on the other. Both started at exactly the same time. It is not always what you say, but more so how it is said.

[jpcloet]

The Foundry currently feels like a place where people talk at each other and not a place where people are actually working together. I also believe that people underestimate the amount of work required to get a map done well.

[Woodruff]

I think with new people it is a case of you win some you loose some ruff. I never was a regular in the early development (my role was to check graphical standards later on) but I could probably list of good bunch of maps that went through the foundry just fine with first time map makers. Actually at the moment (I think) most maps in development are under production by first time map makers. Dont cite me though I would need to double check. If that doesn't show a good attitude to new map makers I don't know what does.

So then how does that explain my point regarding the complete non-interest in even telling me that my map idea sucked? It's been almost three months...if it was that bad of an idea, shouldn't someone have said it by now? (Someone's probably racing to the thread now. <laughing out loud>). I'm not complaining that my map idea wasn't liked. I'm complaining that it wasn't worth anyone's time (other than yeti_c) to say anything at ALL about it. You didn't seem to address that.