WWII-Stalingrad [QUENCHED]

[pamoa]

What i had in mind was not parachutists, pamoa, but that aircraft drop troops/ammo on bombs which then can kill infantry/armour.

troops dropped out of aircrafts above the city without parachute
I'm sure they get the right abandon feeling of the battle reaching the ground
aren't you a bit sadistic ?

no offence but your word gave me a real good laughing moment in my day
thanks
anyway do as you feel

[cairnswk]

What i had in mind was not parachutists, pamoa, but that aircraft drop troops/ammo on bombs which then can kill infantry/armour.

troops dropped out of aircrafts above the city without parachute
I'm sure they get the right abandon feeling of the battle reaching the ground
aren't you a bit sadistic ?

no offence but your word gave me a real good laughing moment in my day
thanks
anyway do as you feel

What you say makes very good sense. So i hope you're not offended, but i 'm glad i gave you a laugh.
If you recognise it, while this is in drafts, i am simply trying to think outside the box to create something a little different on this map. But if it doesn't work, then you're suggestion of bomb bombardment will probably get through.
For someone to tell me to do as I feel....i can't help but feel i have offended you by not taking up your suggestion as quick as you would like.

[pamoa]

no offence just me being a bit stubborn

[mibi]

agh!... its the nightmare of Ardennes all over again.

[cairnswk]

agh!... its the nightmare of Ardennes all over again.

yeh mibi. i'm hoping to change that, but it'll be a couple of weeks before now before i get back to this.
Uni exams are 2 weeks away, so study is priority.

[Industrial Helix]

Good luck with exams!

Other than that just a few graphical tidbits, the artillery pieces on the ground don't look like the ones in the key. They're more skinny.

Did not realize the Luftwaffe bit was part of the game until just now. Can something be one to call more attention to it?

[cairnswk]

Good luck with exams!

Other than that just a few graphical tidbits, the artillery pieces on the ground don't look like the ones in the key. They're more skinny.

Did not realize the Luftwaffe bit was part of the game until just now. Can something be one to call more attention to it?

Thanks Industrial Helix.
Yes, there will be a lot of changes to this once i get enough time to work on it, and i'll keep your requests/suggestions in mind.

[mibi]

agh!... its the nightmare of Ardennes all over again.

yeh mibi. i'm hoping to change that, but it'll be a couple of weeks before now before i get back to this.
Uni exams are 2 weeks away, so study is priority.

Your in uni? A bit of a late bloomer eh?

[cairnswk]

agh!... its the nightmare of Ardennes all over again.

yeh mibi. i'm hoping to change that, but it'll be a couple of weeks before now before i get back to this.
Uni exams are 2 weeks away, so study is priority.

Your in uni? A bit of a late bloomer eh?

Yes mibi, but loving it. Bachelor of Business Accounting. Working for 33 years gives one a much better understanding of processes and things that have occurred in your own life where these life/soft/transferable skills are developed.
But i am not the only late bloomer, there are plenty of mature aged students who use uni to update skills this late in their life. At present it is really important for baby boomers to understand X and Y Gens and uni provides this really well through group/team and social interaction.

[whitestazn88]

what does the bonus for each army held mean? i'm a little unclear on that based on looking at the map

[cairnswk]

what does the bonus for each army held mean? i'm a little unclear on that based on looking at the map

you get bonus for each individual army held.
so some terts have two armies - you get +2
and you get +1 for holding the tert.

[whitestazn88]

what does the bonus for each army held mean? i'm a little unclear on that based on looking at the map

you get bonus for each individual army held.
so some terts have two armies - you get +2
and you get +1 for holding the tert.

so there's no regular territory bonus?

[cairnswk]

what does the bonus for each army held mean? i'm a little unclear on that based on looking at the map

you get bonus for each individual army held.
so some terts have two armies - you get +2
and you get +1 for holding the tert.

so there's no regular territory bonus?

not at this point. this is another build your own type bonus.

[el-presidente]

OY, this is confusing. I like it, but it is confusing. I don't realyy know what can attack what. certainly all of the infantry can't attack all of the other infantry, right? So is it only in the same or adjasent territories? Then how do the planes work? I am really confused. It is probably there I'm just reading it wrong, but could you try to explain better what can attack what, or give an example?

[cairnswk]

Poll ended at Sat May 30, 2009 10:02 pm

Yes - 36 - 68%
No - 12 - 23%
Maybe - 5 - 9%

Total votes : 53

[MrBenn]

Please indicate if you are interested in this map? (Vote changeable)
Poll ended at Sat May 30, 2009 11:02 pm

Yes... 36... 68%
No... 12... 23%
Maybe... 5... 9%

Total votes : 53

[lt_oddball]

Geat topic!
I am a bit late to discover this map, but hopefully not too late.
I have the Avalon Hill game (turning point)..so that could be a good basis...(I only need to find it again.. )



1) Why is it that the underground tunnel attack terr. lie OUTSIDE the city rubble area ? (AA1, AA2, AA3).
From what I learned is that those (big size) sewers attacks took place more in the center (CITY).
That said, however, these underground attacks/movements were only at SHORT distances with only SMALL troops (block to block fighting).
So never-ever could it happen that a troop from for example Station No 1 could move undetected under enemy lines to Lazur Chemical Plant.
Forget it.
I'd say drop this feature.

2) I find the original map "quieter" for the eyes than the latest map (hard blue and red). Very difficult to have an immediate overview of the situation.
The original mapbackground was more realistic and I like the raillines (in the background map decoration so to speak)..This should be used as the place to cross the river (why creating "bridges" next to it into different territories when you have a historically correct location for it?).
Please modify it ?

3) The hard red and blue for the military symbols are thus only there to accommodate the +6/7 huge bonus for he who controls all these russian or german symbols.
Why ? There are terr. with BOTH german and Russian troops (why?). The colours of germans and russians resemble the situation at the START of the battle..why would there be a morale boost THEN ? The sheer number of terr. to control, means that it won't happen to you until you are already the biggest player in the end-phase of the game. So that creates an unnecessary accelerator knock-out effect.
The concept for a morale boost bonus is good, but give that to a target that would have yielded morale boost in the thick of the fightings in 1942:
a) Control of mamayev Hill as it was THE arty spot location (by the way..leave the access to mamayev OPEN to all sides...as russians were able to do numerous counter attacks on the hill ! +3
b) The active Tank factory (in BTF ) on the north . +3 (for the tanks and the north flank)
c) All river crossing jetties (4 territ.) +4
d) Grain Silo (as it marks the southern flank cover) +2
e) I agree that if a player has the whole city (in rubble )it would yield a morale boost; so only then ALL CITY TERRITORIES (on west bank): +7

4) Some other idea to combine the use of divisons/regiments on the map versus bonus:
Under 3) I gave examples of a few(!) territory bonusses, as they DID mean a bonus.
Another "morale" bonus is intact organised troops bonus:
If a couple of div./rgmt markers of the SAME rgmt/div is under your control, that unit is organised and thus much more effective as a fighting force; hence +bonus.
That way you DONOT have to bother with naming each speck of land a name that must be looked up in the 1942 geographical maps .
Only the most important landmarks get a name..and only a few of those give a bonus (see 3) ).
Most of the markers should be part of a divisional/regiment bonus area.

Then all that together with the normal terr./3 = +1 bonus you can get rid of this very confusing "you get bonus for each individual army held."
(maybe you mean the same by it, but when you get rid of the separate bombs and arty markers within a territory then it returns to what we are used to in all normal risk maps)


5) what is the idea behind the "bombs" icon ?
I dig the plane attacking the bomb icon, but don't make it a separate troop number inside one terr (CITY).
ANd how does a dropped "bomb" attack a infantry in another territory?
Just mark a territory that holds one troop with a plane/bombs marker, and you are free to bombard these troops from a plane.
Likewise the artillery; mark the terr. that you can bombard with the arty and that's it.
(note: tank troops would be a lot less affected by the arty bombardments; a) armourprotection, b) no direct vision between arty and target! c) on plains armour moves too fast, in city rubble extra protection from rubble..so arty ONLY on infantry or other arty!).

6) remove the infantry symbols..just assume if nothing is indicated , troops there are infantry.
That saves a lot of eyesore

7) Notice that all arty, tanks, inf, symbols can attack eachother ?..then why the use of these symbols? There is no speciality involved.
Then get rid of it ! (see item 8.) ).
And how is arty able to fire on planes ?.. The plane symbol should represent the ability to use airplane attacks in the enemy territory. In REALITY these airfields were FAR behind the frontline, so the classic artillery on the map COULD NOT attack that!
Then you have the AA-guns, but that is (as the map is drawn) difficult to implement. As it is now, there should be no general arty icon to PLane icon attack !
In reality the german planes flew too high above the (few on the west bank) russian AA guns to make concentrated pinpoint attacks, and the russian planes were kept at bay by the german luftwaffe so effectively there should not be emphasize on air attacks at all.
(But here is a suggestion: create a SINGLE AntiAircraft marker for a specific zone (say carve up the map in 4 zones) when you conquer this AA zone marker you have the abiliy to reduce to neutral the Airplane marker opposite your zone (so bombard attack). Access to the AA marker is from a HQ marker in that zone..likewise the plane marker is accessible from the local HQ).
Obviously you need to assign a few local HQ terr.


8.) So what about the mechanised/armoured troops ? What is their speciality on this map ?
At this moment nothing.
Once these troops reached the city (rubble) their effect was reduced to normal infantry.
The only special effect I can think of is to create a "corridor" string of mechanised troop terr. (like 4 or 5 on a row) such that the ones inbetween (2,3,4) won't be able to be attacked in their side. But only on the plains west of Stalingrad, and only over two german thrust corridors at that (summer 1942) time:
The line Orlovka-Barrikades and the line Goemark- City road...and in one direction only (german to Russian).as in reverse the jettied russian troops would not have armour ready (not even the Tank Factory would be able to produce that fast ).
Of course you should rearrange the terr. in those areas to accommodate such a string.

9.) And then the riverbank troops decay.
You of course want to refer to the machine gunning down of the ferried russian troops crossing the river.
But that decay implementation is not correct once a player holds that one bank or both banks all along the river.
And what if you are in a field with 8 players and just your luck most of your starting troops are on the decay river bank ?!?
Something smarter is needed:
Fact a) most of the decimation of russian troops on the river bank came from german MG fire ON the EDGE of the river bank a bit deeper inland. So in that respect NO GAme decimation needed as this should come from the player who holds the terr. next to the river bank.
Fact b) a lot of decimation of the river CROSSING russian troops came from german MG and mortar troops that REACHED the west river bank CLOSE (enough) to the jetty areas. Gamewise: if you dont hold a west river bank you cannot fire or decimate the river crossing troops!
So AGAIN no AUTOMATED decimation in this game. Leave that up to the respective player who is in a position to fire.
And what if the german player wants to cross the river to the east side? There won't be no decimation on their jetties and landings on the other side by the russian MG and mortars ??

Here's the suggestion:
The river bank terr. that are in MG view of the ferry crossing terr. (the ones in line the next one left and right) on BOTH river banks get a special MG icon. Which means that holding this territory means normal attack on the ferry if it is straight connected to you (as if you'd advance over the river) plus bombardment attack (=MG) on the ferry territory next to the straight connected one.
(example : Refinery can normal attack R06 , but can also MG "bombard" the ferry terr. R07 and R04).
Tip: The original ferry lines made more sense and were clearer to understand. This map now with river sectors is confusing.
Go back to the dotted lines and you may even split a dotted ferry line (from one east bank point able to direct to two west bank jetties).







So far enough of my views.
I hope you do pick up these ideas

[whitestazn88]

what does the bonus for each army held mean? i'm a little unclear on that based on looking at the map

you get bonus for each individual army held.
so some terts have two armies - you get +2
and you get +1 for holding the tert.

so there's no regular territory bonus?

not at this point. this is another build your own type bonus.

if thats the case, i think it should be noted in the legend.

[cairnswk]

Geat topic!
I am a bit late to discover this map, but hopefully not too late.
I have the Avalon Hill game (turning point)..so that could be a good basis...(I only need to find it again.. )
....
So far enough of my views.
I hope you do pick these ideas up.

thanks it_oddball, fab feedback. i'll look at it all over the next couple of days.

...

not at this point. this is another build your own type bonus.

if thats the case, i think it should be noted in the legend.

OK, i'll that if i keep it. Thanks whitestazn88.

[cairnswk]

Please indicate if you are interested in this map? (Vote changeable)
Poll ended at Sat May 30, 2009 11:02 pm

Yes... 36... 68%
No... 12... 23%
Maybe... 5... 9%

Total votes : 53

only 53 votes, but perhaps a winner for going forward.

[cairnswk]

1) Why is it that the underground tunnel attack terr. lie OUTSIDE the city rubble area ? (AA1, AA2, AA3).
From what I learned is that those (big size) sewers attacks took place more in the center (CITY).
That said, however, these underground attacks/movements were only at SHORT distances with only SMALL troops (block to block fighting).
So never-ever could it happen that a troop from for example Station No 1 could move undetected under enemy lines to Lazur Chemical Plant.
Forget it.
I'd say drop this feature.

AA1, AA2, AA3 simply had wrong drop shadow colours on them.
I'd prefer to keep this feature, as it has been requested by other players, however, if there is something that can be done to reduce the number of terts that can attack too far away, then i'd like to here suggestions on that.

2) I find the original map "quieter" for the eyes than the latest map (hard blue and red). Very difficult to have an immediate overview of the situation.
The original mapbackground was more realistic and I like the raillines..This should be used as the place to cross the river (why creating "bridges" next to it into different territories when you have a historically correct location for it?).
Please modify it ?

The map background is indergoing a revamp that will be hopefully more appealing.
I understand that the train lines were hardly used for troop movements etc after the initial blitz bombings from the Germans.
Therefore they were removed from these later versions being of little value.
The reason that i have used two bridges instead of the rail bridge is that using the rail bridge creates a choke point for that section of the map, and from my understandings of gameplay, chokepoints are not preferred.
More coming soon.....

[cairnswk]

3) The hard red and blue for the military symbols are thus only there to accommodate the +6/7 huge bonus for he who controls all these russian or german symbols.
Why ? There are terr. with BOTH german and Russian troops (why?). The colours of germans and russians resemble the situation at the START of the battle..why would there be a morale boost THEN ? The sheer number of terr. to control, means that it won't happen to you until you are already the biggest player in the end-phase of the game. So that creates an unnecessary accelerator knock-out effect.
The concept for a morale boost bonus is good, but give that to a target that would have yielded morale boost in the thick of the fightings in 1942:
a) Control of mamayev Hill as it was THE arty spot location (by the way..leave the access to mamayev OPEN to all sides...as russians were able to do numerous counter attacks on the hill ! +3
b) The active Tank factory (in BTF ) on the north . +3 (for the tanks and the north flank)
c) All river crossing jetties (4 territ.) +4
d) Grain Silo (as it marks the southern flank cover) +2
e) I agree that if a player has the whole city (in rubble )it would yield a morale boost; so only then ALL CITY TERRITORIES (on west bank): +7

ok I can consider those, they look good actually.

4) Some other idea to combine the use of divisons/regiments on the map versus bonus:
Under 3) I gave examples of a few(!) territory bonusses, as they DID mean a bonus.
Another "morale" bonus is intact organised troops bonus:
If a couple of div./rgmt markers of the SAME rgmt/div is under your control, that unit is organised and thus much more effective as a fighting force; hence +bonus.
That way you DONOT have to bother with naming each speck of land a name that must be looked up in the 1942 geographical maps .
Only the most important landmarks get a name..and only a few of those give a bonus (see 3) ).
Most of the markers should be part of a divisional/regiment bonus area.

Mmmmm. I understand this, and i think we're already on the same page here. i have already named the terts, and they will have
72nd Division Armour
72nd Division Infantry
names in the drop list on xml, hold both for the tert +1 bonus

Then all that together with the normal terr./3 = +1 bonus you can get rid of this very confusing "you get bonus for each individual army held."
(maybe you mean the same by it, but when you get rid of the separate bombs and arty markers within a territory then it returns to what we are used to in all normal risk maps)

As you probably know by now, my aim is not to make a normal risk map with most of my maps.
I don't think we have a map that has a "hold two armies/divisions whatever on one tert for +1 bonus" yet in the map strategy thing, so this is where i am trying to head to map.

5) what is the idea behind the "bombs" icon ?
I dig the plane attacking the bomb icon, but don't make it a separate troop number inside one terr (CITY).
ANd how does a dropped "bomb" attack a infantry in another territory?
Just mark a territory that holds one troop with a plane/bombs marker, and you are free to bombard these troops from a plane.
Likewise the artillery; mark the terr. that you can bombard with the arty and that's it.
(note: tank troops would be a lot less affected by the arty bombardments; a) armourprotection, b) no direct vision between arty and target! c) on plains armour moves too fast, in city rubble extra protection from rubble..so arty ONLY on infantry or other arty!).

I'll remove the bomb icons and straighten that idea out, it was something i was trying but didn't succeeed in developing, so i'll take your suggestion and just have the bomb icon markers that planes can attack,as well as only arty assaulting arty and infantry.

6) remove the infantry symbols..just assume if nothing is indicated , troops there are infantry.
That saves a lot of eyesore

Yes. Assumption is the bane of the mapmakers life. I understand what you are saying, but then even though i want to make this map different and challenging, i think it would cause trouble no end for players who don't work off assumption like you and i might, and as such i will leave those indicators there, until something can replace them for betterment of the eyesore. I'll see if i can come up with something in the legend to indicate your suggestion also.

7) Notice that all arty, tanks, inf, symbols can attack eachother ?..then why the use of these symbols? There is no speciality involved.
Then get rid of it ! (see item ).
And how is arty able to fire on planes ?.. The plane symbol should represent the ability to use airplane attacks in the enemy territory. In REALITY these airfields were FAR behind the frontline, so the classic artillery on the map COULD NOT attack that!
Then you have the AA-guns, but that is (as the map is drawn) difficult to implement. As it is now, there should be no general arty icon to PLane icon attack !
In reality the german planes flew too high above the (few on the west bank) russian AA guns to make concentrated pinpoint attacks, and the russian planes were kept at bay by the german luftwaffe so effectively there should not be emphasize on air attacks at all.

Removed.

(But here is a suggestion: create a SINGLE AntiAircraft marker for a specific zone (say carve up the map in 4 zones) when you conquer this AA zone marker you have the abiliy to reduce to neutral the Airplane marker opposite your zone (so bombard attack). Access to the AA marker is from a HQ marker in that zone..likewise the plane marker is accessible from the local HQ).
Obviously you need to assign a few local HQ terr.

OPK, that is something to consider for development, and others to comment on.

8.) So what about the mechanised/armoured troops ? What is their speciality on this map ?
At this moment nothing.
Once these troops reached the city (rubble) their effect was reduced to normal infantry.

Well, yes, i understand that they couldn't be used with affect in the city rubble.

The only special effect I can think of is to create a "corridor" string of mechanised troop terr. (like 4 or 5 on a row) such that the ones inbetween (2,3,4) won't be able to be attacked in their side. But only on the plains west of Stalingrad, and only over two german thrust corridors at that (summer 1942) time:
The line Orlovka-Barrikades and the line Goemark- City road...and in one direction only (german to Russian).as in reverse the jettied russian troops would not have armour ready (not even the Tank Factory would be able to produce that fast ).
Of course you should rearrange the terr. in those areas to accommodate such a string.

OK, i have removed some of the armour icons from the western plains, and there is almost now two thrust corridors but i don't think the terts need re-arranging too much for this apart from the hospital.
What i think would be a good idea to replicate the thrust is for the 77th, 100th & 72nd Div to start and fight over over the forward thrust positions with different markers who could then attack the city from outside it's boundaries.

9.) And then the riverbank troops decay.
You of course want to refer to the machine gunning down of the ferried russian troops crossing the river.
But that decay implementation is not correct once a player holds that one bank or both banks all along the river.
And what if you are in a field with 8 players and just your luck most of your starting troops are on the decay river bank ?!?
Something smarter is needed:
Fact a) most of the decimation of russian troops on the river bank came from german MG fire ON the EDGE of the river bank a bit deeper inland. So in that respect NO GAme decimation needed as this should come from the player who holds the terr. next to the river bank.
Fact b) a lot of decimation of the river CROSSING russian troops came from german MG and mortar troops that REACHED the west river bank CLOSE (enough) to the jetty areas. Gamewise: if you dont hold a west river bank you cannot fire or decimate the river crossing troops!
So AGAIN no AUTOMATED decimation in this game.
And what if the german player wants to cross the river to the east side? There won't be no decimation on their jetties and landings on the other side by the russian MG and mortars ??

Here's the suggestion:
The river bank terr. that are in MG view of the ferry crossing terr. (the one s in line + 1 left and right) on BOTH river banks get a special MG icon. Which means that holding this territory means normal attack on the ferry if it is straight connected to you (as if you'd advance over the river) plus bombardment attack (=MG) on the ferry territory next to the straight connected one.
(example : Refinery normal attacks R06 , but can bombard MG the ferry terr. R07 and R04. as well).
Tip: The original ferry lines made more sense and were clearer to understand. This map now with river sectors is confusing..
Go back to the dotted lines and you may even split a dotted ferry line (from one east bank point able to direct to two west bank jetties).

I understand, i''ll see what i can do.

[cairnswk]

Version 10.
Moving and Shaking....
1. Lots of different colours for territory/bonus recognition.
2. Removal as suggested of some of the symbols
3. Re-arrangements of the attacks as sugguested
4. Addition of 4 snipers (similar ot the gods in Poison Rome) except these snipers can attack any terr at present. Perhaps this needs more development so suggestions are welcome.
5. River terts changed back to lines and arrows but you still have to conquer ferries across the water
6. Icons changed, armour changed to tank icon, infantry represented by simply army boxes
7. 3D Grain silos added, there will be more 3d buildings added in due course.

Click image to enlarge.

[pamoa]

sorry mate but gameplay is still very confused
did you remove the distinction between Russian and German troops

actual attack conditions

aircrafts attack bomb marked territories
snippers attack any city territory
artillery attack any artillery
tanks attack adjacent tanks
infantry attack adjacent artillery, infantry and tanks

their is a lot of problems with this gameplay

who can attack airplanes specially German ones it shouldn't be non attackable territories

(Das Schloss gameplay revamp is blocked for almost a year now due to this problem)

same who can attack snipers

entering a tank territory is a dead end as you can't attack adjacent infantry

same for artillery

my suggestion

1 aircrafts bombard tanks
2 artillery bombard artillery and infantry
3 snipers bombard any city position
4 infantry and tanks attack any adjacent infantry, snipers, tanks, artillery and aircrafts

1 as aircrafts where the only power able to break a tank unit like stukas and get rid of the bombs

an other possibility is to transform bomb in parachutes so you can keep your regular attack route

2 please artillery can bombard but not attack troops

3 the same some single snippers can not take control of an entire unit but they were able to block them

put them directly in the map as you need to control some building around to be able to put them on the top of a building
maybe as your drawing is suggesting across territory border

4 create 1 new German position as HQ connecting to German aircrafts

With this, aircrafts, artillery and snipers are dead ends (20 positions)
but can bombard any position on the map
the rest of the board is a normal gameplay

[thenobodies80]

Nice draft cairnswk!

Honestly i'm not a big fan of the old red&blue graphic, this one is really more appealing.
I like that your maps could be a bit more easy to play. Sometimes is a bit irritating to spend 15 minutes to understand how a map works.
Simply don't make tricky maps your "trademark" (i know that some people loves this type of maps and this one is only my persoanl opinion, so don't accuse me of heresy ), you are able to do wonderful maps with a more classic style (example: carins coral coast).

Planes confused me too....who attack them?
Same thing about sniper, maybe they are attacked by adjacent territories?
About armour/artillery , i don't think they are dead ends....they can attack infantry. But i'd like too that artillery could only bombard (seems more reasonable)
DTF & BTF are really impossible to read in the small version.
The brown zone between gorodische and orlovka don't have a bonus? (nothing bad about it, only to understand)

On the whole,as said the new version did a good improvement....on the right direction.