TRAFALGAR [12.4.2012] QUENCHED (V65)

[MrBenn]

Ahoy, Avast!

I still like the look of this map - apologies for not checking in for a little while

My random thoughts are as follows:

While Bow and Stern are technically accurate, part of me wonders if Fore and Aft would be equally suitable, and easier to comprehend??

I love the concept of the build-your-own bonuses, and are glad to see that you've put some thought into the probability of dropping various bonuses. I think the route that appears to have been settled upon (both commanding ship terrs staring neutral) makes the most sense, and is a good decision to have made. As for the starting values, I'd be more inclined to go with 3 than 4, as there are two of them to conquer... Out of curiosity, do those double commander-terrs feature in the build-your-own bonuses?? (I'm assuming they do because of the "Flagship count as part of larger bonus" text)

I quite liked yeti's suggestion of having a commander on each ship instead of the double bow/stern territory, although completely understand the concern about space etc. It's a tricky one really, and I don't have any bright ideas I'm afraid

Some of the cannons could do with rotating a fraction to make it more obvious which ship they are pointing at:

• Achille could move up a fraction
• Montanes could move down a fraction
  Principe de Asturias - is the Bow pointing at Prince or Achille (or both)?
• San Juan Nepomuceno - is the cannon pointing at Prince or Achille (or both)?
• Revenge could move up a little
• Bucantaure - is the stern cannon pointing at Conqueror or Agamemnon?
• Héros could move up a little
• Africa could move up a little
• Neptuno could move down a little
• Neptune could move down a little
• Bellerophon could move up a fraction

That's all for now

[cairnswk]

Thanks Mr Benn.

Ahoy, Avast!

I still like the look of this map - apologies for not checking in for a little while

My random thoughts are as follows:

While Bow and Stern are technically accurate, part of me wonders if Fore and Aft would be equally suitable, and easier to comprehend??

I love the concept of the build-your-own bonuses, and are glad to see that you've put some thought into the probability of dropping various bonuses. I think the route that appears to have been settled upon (both commanding ship terrs staring neutral) makes the most sense, and is a good decision to have made. As for the starting values, I'd be more inclined to go with 3 than 4, as there are two of them to conquer... Out of curiosity, do those double commander-terrs feature in the build-your-own bonuses?? (I'm assuming they do because of the "Flagship count as part of larger bonus" text)

I quite liked yeti's suggestion of having a commander on each ship instead of the double bow/stern territory, although completely understand the concern about space etc. It's a tricky one really, and I don't have any bright ideas I'm afraid

Some of the cannons could do with rotating a fraction to make it more obvious which ship they are pointing at:

• Achille could move up a fraction
• Montanes could move down a fraction
  Principe de Asturias - is the Bow pointing at Prince or Achille (or both)?
• San Juan Nepomuceno - is the cannon pointing at Prince or Achille (or both)?
• Revenge could move up a little
• Bucantaure - is the stern cannon pointing at Conqueror or Agamemnon?
• Héros could move up a little
• Africa could move up a little
• Neptuno could move down a little
• Neptune could move down a little
• Bellerophon could move up a fraction

That's all for now

1. Bow & Stern Vs Fore and Aft. Happy to change...see what others think.
2. Both flagship terts changed to 3 neutrals each.
3. Need clarification of that legend text "Flagship count as part of larger bonus" from C.
4. Cannons adjusted and ships moved, but in relation to some canon pointing at spanish/french from each other, why would these vessels want to blast each other when they were on the same side? So there will be no bombardment in this respect.
I think that is explained in the legend with British Vs French & Spanish.

Version 36. below

Click image to enlarge.

[cairnswk]

Is this how you require continents to be written for this map?

Code: Select all

<!-- Beginning Weather Line -->

<continent>
      <name>Bucantaure</name>
      <bonus>2</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Bucentaure Bow</territory>
         <territory>Bucentaure Stern</territory>
      </components>
      <required>2</required>
</continent>

<continent>
      <name>French (W)</name>
      <bonus>2</bonus>
      <components>
     <territory>Scipion</territory>
         <territory>Duguay-Trouin</territory>
         <territory>Intrépide</territory>
         <territory>Héros</territory>
         <territory>Formidable</territory>
         <territory>Mont Blanc</territory>
         <territory>Bucentaure</territory>
         <territory>Indomptable</territory>
         <territory>Redoubtable</territory>         
      </components>
      <required>5</required>
</continent>

<continent>
      <name>Santissima Trindad</name>
      <bonus>2</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Santissima Trinidad Bow</territory>
         <territory>Santissima Trinidad Stern</territory>
      </components>
      <required>2</required>
</continent>

<continent>
      <name>Spanish (W)</name>
      <bonus>1</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Neptuno</territory>
         <territory>Rayo</territory>
         <territory>San Augustin</territory>
         <territory>Santissima Trinidad</territory>
         <territory>San Francisco de Asis</territory>
         <territory>San Leonardo</territory>
      </components>
      <required>4</required>
</continent>

<continent>
      <name>British (W)</name>
      <bonus>2</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Victory Bow</territory>
         <territory>Victory Stern</territory>
      </components>
      <required>2</required>
</continent>

<continent>
      <name>British (W)</name>
      <bonus>3</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Africa</territory>
         <territory>Britannia</territory>
         <territory>Euryalus</territory>
         <territory>Agamemnon</territory>
         <territory>Neptune (B)</territory>
         <territory>Spartiate</territory>
         <territory>Minotaur</territory>
         <territory>Orion</territory>
         <territory>Ajax</territory>
         <territory>Conqueror</territory>
         <territory>Leviathan</territory>
         <territory>Victory</territory>
         <territory>Téméraire</territory>
      </components>
      <required>8</required>
</continent>

<!-- End Weather Line -->


[the.killing.44]

You don't need the <required> tags around the Flagships — that's only for build-your-own.

.44

[cairnswk]

You don't need the <required> tags around the Flagships — that's only for build-your-own.

.44

so my question is, that if you don't need the those <required> tags around the flagships, then does the +1 bonus for both bow and stern terts become redundant, since from this it appears to be incorporated into the larger bonus and cannot be gained separately?
sorry if this is not clear to me.

[the.killing.44]

You don't need the <required> tags around the Flagships — that's only for build-your-own.

.44

so my question is, that if you don't need the those <required> tags around the flagships, then does the +1 bonus for both bow and stern terts become redundant, since from this it appears to be incorporated into the larger bonus and cannot be gained separately?
sorry if this is not clear to me.

I'm 95% positive that unless you use <override> tags then they both count, but let's get a particular yeti's comments on this.

.44

[AndyDufresne]

Looking good, Cairnswk. I'm actually really digging the graphics of this map. I'll be back to check on it a little later. On a small note, you use "attack" in the legend--which may be an old hold over from when this map originally started long ago, before it was changed to "assault."


--Andy

[Incandenza]

Soooooo call me crazy, but that neutral is still on agamemmnon and not britannia.

And how about "Bow & Stern each count toward larger bonus"

Or you could categorize the build-a-bonuses as "Fleet Bonuses", thus rendering the final line "Bow & Stern each count toward Fleet Bonus"

[the.killing.44]

Going back to Bwnn, ibwae thinking of fore and aft vs. bow and stern, but settled on the latter as they're more well-known.

That idea of fleet bonuses is awesome. As for the each, I've been fussing with "both" and "each," putting them both in front of and after the "bow and stern" and for me it's come down to Inc's sugg or a different, clearer, but substantially longer "each Flag Ship bow & stern separately counts to Fleet bonuses." But inc's wording is rite-o in anycase (or any non size issue-related one, anyway).

.44

[MrBenn]

Going back to Bwnn, ibwae thinking of fore and aft vs. bow and stern,

Speak English man!

[cairnswk]

Looking good, Cairnswk. I'm actually really digging the graphics of this map. I'll be back to check on it a little later. On a small note, you use "attack" in the legend--which may be an old hold over from when this map originally started long ago, before it was changed to "assault."
That's nice of you Andy. Hope you get back sooner rather than later.
"attack" changed to assault next version.
--Andy

Soooooo call me crazy, but that neutral is still on agamemmnon and not britannia.

me crazy too.

And how about "Bow & Stern each count toward larger bonus"
Or you could categorize the build-a-bonuses as "Fleet Bonuses", thus rendering the final line "Bow & Stern each count toward Fleet Bonus"

Going back to Bwnn, ibwae thinking of fore and aft vs. bow and stern, but settled on the latter as they're more well-known.

i agree with this.

That idea of fleet bonuses is awesome. As for the each, I've been fussing with "both" and "each," putting them both in front of and after the "bow and stern" and for me it's come down to Inc's sugg or a different, clearer, but substantially longer "each Flag Ship bow & stern separately counts to Fleet bonuses." But inc's wording is rite-o in anycase (or any non size issue-related one, anyway).
.44

Wait a minute! How can you have separate terts on a ship counting towards fleet bonuses.
The entire ship as in "both" has to count to the fleet bonus.
Wording for me should be "each flagship counts towards fleet bonus" with a change to the title being Fleet Bonuses.
I've moved some names around so that the army numbers don't clash with text.
I have also changed the bonuses up to be inclusive of the flagship bonus.

Version 37.

Click image to enlarge.

[Incandenza]

The whole bow and stern each count as a "ship" concept goes back some pages when we discussed the advisability of setting up the bonuses such that all but british windward and spanish windward could be doubled up, so two players could each hold, say, 5 french windward ships.

I'm more or less of two minds at this point. cairns, if you're cool with not being able to double up bonuses, then I can live with that. It was mostly yeti and you that were mad at me for suggesting that no longer be the case when we first started to dick around with the bonuses, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth.

[MrBenn]

It's easier to code each half of the commanding vessels into the build-your-own, but I'm cerain that there is a way to do it so that both halves count as one through the creative use of overrides...

I'll have a think and come back to it later.

[cairnswk]

Inca...i'm sorry, but all this is confusing me. Only four people commenting on the bonus, should be easy, but with communications going awry, I might be losing my marbles eh? maybe it's Uni. who knows.
I am sorry if i have in the process confused you or stuffed up some process that was in the boot.

It's easier to code each half of the commanding vessels into the build-your-own, but I'm cerain that there is a way to do it so that both halves count as one through the creative use of overrides...

I'll have a think and come back to it later.

But MrBenn, i have to question why you would split the vessel for a double up bonus on build-your-own.

My idea back on page p20 (which was liked by yeti_C.) was:

I like to seek feedback on this idea of having two terts on the commander ships, so that they have double-fire power almost and both would be required to be held to get the commander bonus. Naturally, they would border each other, and both have borders with neighbouring vessels.
I was trying to come up with something that worked well for the "ship of line" aspect, and these big gunners had 3/4 decks of guns anyway.

Inca said

Visually I'm not wild about the dual-terit commanders, but I think they could really help the gameplay....

with preference for:

D) 1 neutral per commander, inc bonus -- 61 starting terits, 20 per player
Bonus/terits/required/odds
Br Windward 13 8 1.44%
Fr Windward 9 5 9.05%
Sp Windward 6 4 7.16%
Br Leeward 15 8 4.01%
Fr Leeward 9 5 9.05%
Sp Leeward 9 5 9.05%

C and D seem to be the best of both worlds: no commanders on the drop, the bonuses are a bit more manageable, and the first-mover is mitigated as much as possible. Of course, I prefer D, nothing over 10% (tho, to be fair, there's not a ton of difference between 9.05% and the 10.45% you see in options A and B), and with the dual-terit commanders, people will still be able to double up on all bonuses save British and Spanish Windward, meaning that with the commanders there'll be 16 bonuses in play, giving lots and lots of flexibility...

Furthermore, I'd put a potential commander neutral terit at only, say, 3 or 4...

It looks to me like Inca first mentioned double-up bonuses.
After we wnet around the block on bow and stern and some legend wording...then Inca came up with:

An open-ended question: is there a better way to assign bonuses here than build-a-bonus? Look, I'm not trying to throw a monkey wrench in things, and if build-a-bonus works best, that's fine, I'm just wondering if an alternative can be found. I will confess that I'm beginning to think that build-a-bonus might not be as awesome a bonus system as it's made out to be.

Then after a few more rounds somewhere, i thought the flagship was bedded...until...
then we ran off to Britannia and some other ship up north deciding neutrals and start positions with .44...
then everyone got on board with britannia and spartiate being 2 neutral...
then bonus for flagship terts bumped to +2

The whole bow and stern each count as a "ship" concept goes back some pages when we discussed the advisability of setting up the bonuses such that all but british windward and spanish windward could be doubled up, so two players could each hold, say, 5 french windward ships.

I'm more or less of two minds at this point. cairns, if you're cool with not being able to double up bonuses, then I can live with that. It was mostly yeti and you that were mad at me for suggesting that no longer be the case when we first started to dick around with the bonuses, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth.

so i see where the double-up concept comes from now....but i had never stated that I was considering moving away from the single vessel with two terts being required for the flagship bonus, and i am still of the persuassion that it should be exactly that.

sorry guys, but my analysis page by page was necessary.

[the.killing.44]

Okay, I don't know where the whole spiel of the single-tert counts to Fleet bonus came from (and if it was just off Inc's wording it's really safe to say it does not bode well, if he was thinking two-tert requirement), but I wholly agree that requiring the whole Flagship should be the requirement. And that makes things so much easier:

Whole Flagship is bow & stern +2
Each whole Flagship counts to Fleet bonus

That way the structure is linked (terts » whole ship :: whole ship » bonuses) and it works out nicely.

Sorry for all the confusion!
.44

[waseemalim]

can you make the yellow "line of sight" a bit darker?

Going through 6 neutrals to get a bonus a +2 is a bit extreme -- also they are not easily defensible. I would suggest 4 neutrals, 2 on each flagship terr.

[MrBenn]

I'm a little confused about this right now, but think I know what's going on... Is this right??

1. The number of territories currently on the map.
As of version 14....
French (W) 9
Spanish (W) 6
British (W) 13
French (L) 9
Spanish (L) 9
British (L) 15

So of the 13 British (W) terrs, there are 12 ships.
Holding any 8 ships will give you the bonus.
You can get this by holding either of the following combinations:

1. Any 8 'single terr' ships
2. Any 7 'single terr' ships, and both terrs of HMS Victory

If you hold both terrs of HMS Victory you will aslo get a +2 bonus.
So, (1) above will actually give you +5 (Fleet Bonus) while (2) will give you +7 (Fleet+HMS Victory).

If this sceanrio holds true, then it mattters not whether 1 or 2 of the HMS Victory terrs (and other commander) ships start neutral, so long as one of them does.

My head hurts now, I need some paracetamol

[cairnswk]

Welcome wassemalim....

can you make the yellow "line of sight" a bit darker?

The one in the legend, or the assault lines on the map.
If lines on the map, are the others visible enough because blue is very faint.

Going through 6 neutrals to get a bonus a +2 is a bit extreme -- also they are not easily defensible. I would suggest 4 neutrals, 2 on each flagship terr.

See what others think wassemalim. i think 3 is good.

[cairnswk]

I'm a little confused about this right now, but think I know what's going on... Is this right??

MrBenn....you're always confused with my maps.

1. The number of territories currently on the map.
As of version 14....
French (W) 9
Spanish (W) 6
British (W) 13
French (L) 9
Spanish (L) 9
British (L) 15

So of the 13 British (W) terrs, there are 12 ships.
Holding any 8 ships will give you the bonus.
You can get this by holding either of the following combinations:

1. Any 8 'single terr' ships
2. Any 7 'single terr' ships, and both terrs of HMS Victory

If you hold both terrs of HMS Victory you will aslo get a +2 bonus.
So, (1) above will actually give you +5 (Fleet Bonus) while (2) will give you +7 (Fleet+HMS Victory).

If this sceanrio holds true, then it mattters not whether 1 or 2 of the HMS Victory terrs (and other commander) ships start neutral, so long as one of them does.

My head hurts now, I need some paracetamol

MrBenn, i've already downed my paracetamol long ago and am heading for the second/third round.

"Each Flagship counts toward Fleet Bonus"
My understanding (the way this reads for me) is that your flagship is included in the +5 bonus.
So you can either obtain a fleet:

• with any 8 single ships
• with any 7 single ships plus the flagship of 2 terrs

There is no 5 + 2 option.

If you wanted this, the fleet bonus would have to read:
"Each Flagship additional to Fleet Bonus"
so then you'd have a fleet of 8 ships (would still gain +5)
plus commander (+2) to make total of +7

[cairnswk]

I've moved things around a little...
1. some vessels at the botoom had to move up to make way for more legend.
2. assault lines emphasized to 2 point lines....yellow has drop shadow on it.
3. Some larger names p[laced in bottom legend show that assault lines can show better in map.

Version 38

Click image to enlarge.

[cairnswk]

I'm writing the xml....but have a question.

For the two terrs on the flagship...how does one code these into the continents.

At present i have this:

Code: Select all

<continent>
      <name>Bucantaure</name>
      <bonus>2</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Bucantaure Bow</territory>
         <territory>Bucantaure Stern</territory>
      </components>
</continent>

<continent>
      <name>French (W)</name>
      <bonus>4</bonus>
      <components>
     <territory>Scipion</territory>
         <territory>Duguay-Trouin</territory>
         <territory>Intrépide</territory>
         <territory>Héros</territory>
         <territory>Formidable</territory>
         <territory>Mont Blanc</territory>
         <territory>Bucantaure</territory>
         <territory>Indomptable</territory>
         <territory>Redoubtable</territory>         
      </components>
      <required>5</required>
</continent>

but the xml tool checker is telling me Bucantaure does not exist as territory.

[the.killing.44]

You can't code continents as territories in a bonus. You need to code both the Bow & Stern terts in there

Code: Select all

<continent>
      <name>Bucantaure</name>
      <bonus>2</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Bucantaure Bow</territory>
         <territory>Bucantaure Stern</territory>
      </components>
</continent>

<continent>
      <name>French (W)</name>
      <bonus>4</bonus>
      <components>
    <territory>Scipion</territory>
         <territory>Duguay-Trouin</territory>
         <territory>Intrépide</territory>
         <territory>Héros</territory>
         <territory>Formidable</territory>
         <territory>Mont Blanc</territory>
         <territory>Bucantaure Bow</territory>
         <territory>Bucantaure Stern</territory>
         <territory>Indomptable</territory>
         <territory>Redoubtable</territory>         
      </components>
      <required>5</required>
</continent>

That's how you'd do it if each bow & stern counts to the bonus. But you want the whole one? I'm not quite sure that's possible … Ask the yeti

Also,

Okay, I don't know where the whole spiel of the single-tert counts to Fleet bonus came from (and if it was just off Inc's wording it's really safe to say it does not bode well, if he was thinking two-tert requirement), but I wholly agree that requiring the whole Flagship should be the requirement. And that makes things so much easier:

Whole Flagship (+2) is bow & stern
Each whole Flagship counts to Fleet bonus

That way the structure is linked (terts » whole ship :: whole ship » bonuses) and it works out nicely.

Sorry for all the confusion!
.44

Did you catch that earlier? (I edited slightly)

.44

[cairnswk]

You can't code continents as territories in a bonus. You need to code both the Bow & Stern terts in there

Code: Select all

<continent>
      <name>Bucantaure</name>
      <bonus>2</bonus>
      <components>
         <territory>Bucantaure Bow</territory>
         <territory>Bucantaure Stern</territory>
      </components>
</continent>

<continent>
      <name>French (W)</name>
      <bonus>4</bonus>
      <components>
    <territory>Scipion</territory>
         <territory>Duguay-Trouin</territory>
         <territory>Intrépide</territory>
         <territory>Héros</territory>
         <territory>Formidable</territory>
         <territory>Mont Blanc</territory>
         <territory>Bucantaure Bow</territory>
         <territory>Bucantaure Stern</territory>
         <territory>Indomptable</territory>
         <territory>Redoubtable</territory>         
      </components>
      <required>5</required>
</continent>

That's how you'd do it if each bow & stern counts to the bonus. But you want the whole one? I'm not quite sure that's possible … Ask the yeti

Yes C will probably know.

Also,

Okay, I don't know where the whole spiel of the single-tert counts to Fleet bonus came from (and if it was just off Inc's wording it's really safe to say it does not bode well, if he was thinking two-tert requirement), but I wholly agree that requiring the whole Flagship should be the requirement. And that makes things so much easier:

Whole Flagship (+2) is bow & stern
Each whole Flagship counts to Fleet bonus

That way the structure is linked (terts » whole ship :: whole ship » bonuses) and it works out nicely.

Sorry for all the confusion!
.44

Did you catch that earlier? (I edited slightly)
.44

Yes i did, thanks.

By making an adaption of the xml, i was able to get the armies onto the maps for a quick show...
and after writing the xml and examining all the borders & bombardments, there is going to be some very tricky top notch
gameplay in this one.

Click image to enlarge.

[the.killing.44]

"Vive l'Empereur" looks overly italicized.

The black glow around the yellow lines look very out of place when compared to the red and blue. I suggest that for uniformity's sake you add it to all (or to none, though the former seems better). And reducing the opacity if possible

In the Flagship note on the left, "Flagships are one ship with two armies that can both assault & bombard"
better? The map certainly is wild

.44

[cairnswk]

"Vive l'Empereur" looks overly italicized.

That is not italicized affect....the text has been warped to give effect on the sail. Compared to the King's Victory text it would look like that on the edge of a curved sail, no?

The black glow around the yellow lines look very out of place when compared to the red and blue. I suggest that for uniformity's sake you add it to all (or to none, though the former seems better). And reducing the opacity if possible

I'll examine and change if i can come up with something better.

In the Flagship note on the left, "Flagships are one ship with two armies that can both assault & bombard"
better? The map certainly is wild
.44

no room for both, and i feel it is not needed.
Thanks .44