gordito & snakedoctor [cleared/noted]

[wolfpack0530]

Accused:

[gordito]xxxxxxx[/snakedoctor]



The accused are suspected of:

Being Multis
Conducting Secret Diplomacy



Game number(s):


Game 4906588



Comments:secret diplomacy was so obvious

[Huntyr Green]

This is at least the second time these two have been accused of tacit alliances... (viewtopic.php?f=239&t=65162&hilit=gordito) They have a history (which has improved, in recent months) of playing in public and tournament games with other players and not attacking one another unless it's convenient and/or necessary. They have admitted to being brothers, which is fine, but they seem to trust each other in games to the extent that they can stack their borders with other opponents while not being overly concerned about each other. In the three games they shared in my 1v1v1 tournament, the 2009 3-For-All Grand Championship, including the game to which wolfpack0530 is referring, they managed to finish first and second in each game they shared. (Game 4306117 and Game 4378898 are the other two.)

I have no problem with brothers being on the site, or working together in team games or against each other in individual games. I also do not think that it can be proven beyond a doubt that gordito and snakedoctor are cheating or have cheated. However, I think it is clear that they have repeatedly acted very suspiciously. They also tend to react very harshly both in games and in their previous cases, with the sort of personal, bullying behavior that is not consistent with the spirit of the majority of Conquer Club players.

If I were wolfpack0530, I would feel cheated.

Because I as a tournament organizer was not made aware of their relationship at the outset, and thus given the opportunity to at least separate the brothers until one or both reached the finals entirely on their own merit and free from suspicion, I also feel cheated.

Last time gordito and snakedoctor were accused, they were cleared. Perhaps this time they should at least be warned.

Please note that I am attempting to be diplomatic and fair to all parties involved. This issue will not affect the schedule, standings, or results of my tournament unless it is determined by a moderator that gordito and snakedoctor were cheating.

[gordito]

truth is wolf got stuck in the middle, i attacked snake first off then later broke all his bonuses - he was just in the wrong place, bad drop whatever - we usually end up fighting each other first as you can see . . . you get bad dice, a bad drop and get taken out because of poor strategy, sorry for that. But that is no excuse for making up false accusations !! I play in A LOT of tournaments - and sometimes he joins and i don't even know about it till we meet up. And we also play a lot together as teammates so are strategies may be very similar . . .

that doesn't mean we cheat - why would we ?? this is all for fun, right ??

G.

p.s. and i didn't even win that game - sucks for me though

p.s.s. - and another thing - we both belong to The Legion, Officers Mess, Realmers, ect., ect. So of course we play a lot together !!

[apb23]

I believe Gordito. If wolf was stuck in the middle, then of course he is going to be attacked and feel cheated, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was.

APB

[snakedoctor]

first of all guys, i had no intention to gang up/team up on anybody regardless of who it is....in fact, i would gladly take out my brother first just to piss him off....i just want to win the game and the tournament....

Second, in this particular game, i went for a bonus in the top right of the board because i dropped that area....then i moved to the west and took that bonus....then i proceeded south and won the game....i did not target anyone in particular, i went for the win...that is what the log shows and that is how i view it....

It is really sad when someone has to pull the cheating card to make himself feel better....and yes i did call him an idiot because he pulled the cheating card with no proof....i apologize for that however, i feel that once we are cleared that some repercussion should come to those that accuse others of cheating without any basis....

and to wolfpack....i am sorry that you felt that way, but next time try to actually have an idea of what is going on before you run to forum and accuse others....

oh and by the way, in the first few games in this tournament, i think that all three of us were in games together and i was the first one out in all of them....and guess who knocked me out....my brother, that slut....

games: Game 4306117, Game 4378898, Game 4906588 --> these are the only games in this tournament that we played together....my brother won them all, why in the hell would he let me win this one....and i believe that all of these games were on AoR I which is both of our favorites and he taught me how to play that board....i personally think i am better but obviously not....

oh and one more thing....not sure if wolfpack is an only child but among my brothers and cousins we are all very very competitive against each other....and that is how it has always been....he would never let me win anything....

oh and by the way Huntyr Green....i only react that way when i win and i am accused unfairly of cheating....that is not cool and it takes away from my effort and my win....secondly, it doesn't sound very diplomatic to say that you were cheated and that wolfpack was cheated because we are brothers.....that is not cool....we play our own games and we are different people with different strategies....and yes i did get this far on my "own merit" and should be "free from suspicion" ....any other way and i am offended....

as far as this statement, "They also tend to react very harshly both in games and in their previous cases, with the sort of personal, bullying behavior that is not consistent with the spirit of the majority of Conquer Club players.".....i react that way and so does my brother and so would YOU if someone called you out for cheating with no basis....and especially because we are brothers.....it almost seems like we are being attacked for being brothers....almost like brotherism....(i just made that up, that is my new word for today, )....

anyway, it sucks that both of you feel that way....sorry for the winded message....later guys....

[wolfpack0530]

I believe Gordito. If wolf was stuck in the middle, then of course he is going to be attacked and feel cheated, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was.

APB

First of all, in a 3 player game on a map like Europe with lots of terts, there is no "stuck in the middle". Those guys made it that way. The first few turns of the game (unlimited reinforcments mind you), they attacked only me and consolidated all of there armies out of areas that the other wanted to control. So the game log looks like they attacked each other, but what they did was take out all my defenses and terts that bordered the bonuses they wanted, and then defeated each others terts with only one army. meanwhile, by turn two i was left with 3s or lower and they had 7s and 9s all over the board.

Any time i would consolidate armies, they would focus on me.

I DIDNT EVEN MAKE IT TO ROUND 5!, I DIDNT GET TO CASH ONE SET! IN A FAIR 3 PLAYER GAME, THAT IS UNHEARD OF.

Normally, i wouldnt say anything, and this is the first accusation i have ever made, but only because it was so blatant. A blind man could see what was going on, and now i know that they are brothers............... connect the dots apb23

[snakedoctor]

I believe Gordito. If wolf was stuck in the middle, then of course he is going to be attacked and feel cheated, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was.

APB

First of all, in a 3 player game on a map like Europe with lots of terts, there is no "stuck in the middle". Those guys made it that way. The first few turns of the game (unlimited reinforcments mind you), they attacked only me and consolidated all of there armies out of areas that the other wanted to control. So the game log looks like they attacked each other, but what they did was take out all my defenses and terts that bordered the bonuses they wanted, and then defeated each others terts with only one army. meanwhile, by turn two i was left with 3s or lower and they had 7s and 9s all over the board.

Any time i would consolidate armies, they would focus on me.

I DIDNT EVEN MAKE IT TO ROUND 5!, I DIDNT GET TO CASH ONE SET! IN A FAIR 3 PLAYER GAME, THAT IS UNHEARD OF.

Normally, i wouldnt say anything, and this is the first accusation i have ever made, but only because it was so blatant. A blind man could see what was going on, and now i know that they are brothers............... connect the dots apb23

DUDE....read the log....i started in the northeast....went to the west and then went south....i killed anyone in my way....grow up and quit crying....you got beat....live with it....

[gordito]

I DIDNT EVEN MAKE IT TO ROUND 5!, I DIDNT GET TO CASH ONE SET! IN A FAIR 3 PLAYER GAME, THAT IS UNHEARD OF.

The game was over in ROUND 8 so i didn't make it much further !!

so i was done in round 6 - right after you !!

G.

oh and have you EVER played a unlimited fort game before ?? they all turn out that way ! You make your first move then consolidate - and who did i hit ?? both of you - that's right i was going for the southeastern and south continent bonuses !!

And i am tired of defending myself to people like you - you have only played like 500 games - i have played 4000 and snake over 4500 !!!

you play a couple thousand more games then we can talk !!!

I have WON more than TWICE as many games than you have PLAYED

[Huntyr Green]

There is no need to get offended upon being accused, and there is certainly no need to attempt to bully or belittle another player who, feeling cheated, posts a explanation of why he feels cheated. wolfpack0530 is acting as a sore loser. That's okay. He lost, and the manner in which he lost rubbed him the wrong way. What needs to be determined is whether his complaint is justified.

If wolfpack's account of the game is correct, it should be a rather simple thing for a moderator to play out the game and determine the extent to which it can be seen his accusations are or may be true. apb23, you can do the same thing. That would be more productive than posting that you believe somebody's argument.

If I was accused, or if I was accusing, I would make every effort to keep a plain and civilized tone to my posts. No cheating = no concern. Defend yourself, then let the truth set you free.

[danryan]

I've played both these guys and in my experience they are both good honest players. 3 player games are the problem - it always feels like the other 2 are against you. I try to stay away from 3 player for that reason.

[ronsizzle]

I've played both these guys and in my experience they are both good honest players. 3 player games are the problem - it always feels like the other 2 are against you. I try to stay away from 3 player for that reason.

that is very well put dan.

3 man games are tough because someone is always singled out. we play this game to prey on the weak. so the first person who is weak will almost for sure lose. when i play 3 player games, i try to weaken the weaker player usually. that is my strategy though.

i also have played against these two guys, gordito and snakedoctor. i cant say i have ever thought they cheated. if they play hundreds of 3 player games and the same thing happens, then you may have a case.

but as danryan put, in 3 player games, you usually feel cheated if you are first out.

[LFAW]

Gordito and Snakedoctor are both fair players that kill eachother as much as the opposition.
(Infact probably more likely to kill eachother!)

I know from the past they are both extremely competitive.

LFAW

[wolfpack0530]

That is fine guys. And honestly i accept your explanations snake. I think that some of the other points brought up were good ones too. Perhaps it was because it was a 3 player game. Perhaps it is because i was the last one to take my turn, and by that time i had lost so many terts that my first allotment of soldiers was 3 instead of the 5 the other two players got.

I know i tried like hell to break snakes bonuses every turn, but i guess i was just crippled from the start. I guess i just had an issue with the fact that the other two guys made no effort to break each other, and they made every effort to get out of each others way untill they were heads up. that is how it seemed to me, but know i am open to the possibility that you guys were employing a stragety that had nothing to do with purposely teaming up against me.

And like i said before, i have never made a single complaint against any opponent, and I dont care about the points that much either. I just love this game and love playing against real people instead of computers.

Good luck in all your future games, and keep kicking each others @sses like brothers should

If the mods are reading this, let me withdraw my complaint. No hard feelings on my side. I will let this issue rest

[Lindax]

That is fine guys. And honestly i accept your explanations snake. I think that some of the other points brought up were good ones too. Perhaps it was because it was a 3 player game. Perhaps it is because i was the last one to take my turn, and by that time i had lost so many terts that my first allotment of soldiers was 3 instead of the 5 the other two players got.

I know i tried like hell to break snakes bonuses every turn, but i guess i was just crippled from the start. I guess i just had an issue with the fact that the other two guys made no effort to break each other, and they made every effort to get out of each others way untill they were heads up. that is how it seemed to me, but know i am open to the possibility that you guys were employing a stragety that had nothing to do with purposely teaming up against me.

And like i said before, i have never made a single complaint against any opponent, and I dont care about the points that much either. I just love this game and love playing against real people instead of computers.

Good luck in all your future games, and keep kicking each others @sses like brothers should

If the mods are reading this, let me withdraw my complaint. No hard feelings on my side. I will let this issue rest

Kudos to you wolfpack!

Lx

[ronsizzle]

i second lindax's notion of the kudos's.

[owenator]

That is fine guys. And honestly i accept your explanations snake. I think that some of the other points brought up were good ones too. Perhaps it was because it was a 3 player game. Perhaps it is because i was the last one to take my turn, and by that time i had lost so many terts that my first allotment of soldiers was 3 instead of the 5 the other two players got.

I know i tried like hell to break snakes bonuses every turn, but i guess i was just crippled from the start. I guess i just had an issue with the fact that the other two guys made no effort to break each other, and they made every effort to get out of each others way untill they were heads up. that is how it seemed to me, but know i am open to the possibility that you guys were employing a stragety that had nothing to do with purposely teaming up against me.

And like i said before, i have never made a single complaint against any opponent, and I dont care about the points that much either. I just love this game and love playing against real people instead of computers.

Good luck in all your future games, and keep kicking each others @sses like brothers should

If the mods are reading this, let me withdraw my complaint. No hard feelings on my side. I will let this issue rest

Well spoken. I'd send a PM to king achilles or lancehoch to advise them you wish to withdraw your accusation. I have taken a look at the game and it does appear on first glance something might have aroused suspicion. However, upon a more careful observation, you were stuck in the middle. And in that situation it's inevitable that both would have attacked you. I know both of these players, and have played against them. Until now, I had no idea that they were brothers and never have I seen them to show any sign of secret diplomacy. They are both respectable and honourable and I can soundly say that they have my support.

[chemefreak]

Agreed. Cheers Wolfpack

[king achilles]

Cleared.

However, as this is the 2nd time they have been accused, it will be hard to ignore these two reports if snakedoctor and gordito gets reported once again for another secret alliance in the future. This is still noted.