The Big Question

[tlane]

I do not understand what you said at all and I hardly think
tbonety6(tlane) (9:21:01 PM): k, i made post to impress CAs

I never said that

[mibi]

word up, like my man Ghandi says, be the change.

[sailorseal]

word up, like my man Ghandi says, be the change.

I am working on that

[sailorseal]

I say we re-organize how we do things!

[sailorseal]

tbonety6(tlane) (9:21:01 PM): k, i made post to impress CAs

Okay, that's just BS.
I'm done with this spamfest and your "change." Listen to kap, listen to tack, listen to wca, listen to Danyael (yep, a "newbie").

.44

EDIT: Stop blackmailing people with these made-up things. Let's not get into that war …
EDIT 2: I have the entire chat as proof tlane didn't say that. Screenshot available to whom it may concern.

Actually this is from an older chat, so sorry your screen shot has been invalidated
Now stop pulling this off topic

[Incandenza]

Well, as a man wiser than I once said, you're either part of the problem or part of the solution, or you're just part of the landscape.

Unfortunately, sailor, I cannot for the life of me think of what you've done here to be a part of the solution, as aimless threads and genocide maps are hardly what the foundry needs. And given that you're bound and determined to be so vocal as to never be mistaken as part of the lanscape, that just leaves one option then.

If you have a specific course of action you'd like to advocate, I'm all ears, but saying things like "I think the community as a whole needs to chose how" betrays a breathtaking ignorance of how communities organize and evolve. It's enough hard to get more than three people to agree on toppings for a pizza.

[sailorseal]

If you have a specific course of action you'd like to advocate, I'm all ears, but saying things like "I think the community as a whole needs to chose how" betrays a breathtaking ignorance of how communities organize and evolve. It's enough hard to get more than three people to agree on toppings for a pizza.

I say we re-organize the system of how we work.

[Kaplowitz]

If you have a specific course of action you'd like to advocate, I'm all ears, but saying things like "I think the community as a whole needs to chose how" betrays a breathtaking ignorance of how communities organize and evolve. It's enough hard to get more than three people to agree on toppings for a pizza.

I say we re-organize the system of how we work.

HOW?

that isnt a suggestion! You need SPECIFICS.

[sailorseal]

(The forth vote was cast by a outsider who has never even posted to spite me, just FYI to all.)

All I am saying really is that we the foundry encourage a more positive attitude, that we stop rewarding people for yelling at a n00b for posting an idea in the drafting room, for making a map way to large, for thinking their map will be quenched in a week, etc.

[Kaplowitz]

so that's the super awesome plan to save the foundry and encourage more people to make maps? Im unimpressed.

First of all, this doesnt happen. No one is rewarding people for saying that.
Second of all, if someone posts an idea in the drafting room, normally there is no yelling. Simply suggestion. Besides, that person had no intention of actually making a map in the first place, so hurting their feelings did not kill the foundry. The same with all of your other yelling complaints.
Third of all, the foundry isnt actually dying, its thriving wonderfully. As wca said, there are tons of new mapmakers about! (including yourself, sailor.)

[sailorseal]

so that's the super awesome plan to save the foundry and encourage more people to make maps? Im unimpressed.

First of all, this doesnt happen. No one is rewarding people for saying that.
Second of all, if someone posts an idea in the drafting room, normally there is no yelling. Simply suggestion. Besides, that person had no intention of actually making a map in the first place, so hurting their feelings did not kill the foundry. The same with all of your other yelling complaints.
Third of all, the foundry isnt actually dying, its thriving wonderfully. As wca said, there are tons of new mapmakers about! (including yourself, sailor.)

I never claimed it was dying and these are just what comes off the top of my head. Now this is exactly what I am talking about (the bold)

[Woodruff]

Now you may ask, "Wait sailor, shouldn't we first address the problem of minimal new people entering the Foundry?"
To that I say, solve this problem, solve the latter. Clean up our air, and more people will breathe it.

Of the 23 topics currently in the drafts room, 21 of them are by people that have never finished a map before.

I don't think we need to worry about not having enough new participation.

A number of whom have undoubtedly felt "driven off" by precisely the attitude they percieve as what sailorseal has been describing.

[sailorseal]

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=127&t=33966&hilit=+Leaving+Leaving
Now this will prove everything I am saying

[Woodruff]

yelling at a n00b for posting an idea in the drafting room

Second of all, if someone posts an idea in the drafting room, normally there is no yelling. Simply suggestion. Besides, that person had no intention of actually making a map in the first place, so hurting their feelings did not kill the foundry.

I posted an idea in the (get this) "Map Ideas/Suggestions" forum essentially asking if the idea was worth pursuing. I was very interested in doing it, but didn't want to put out the effort that I knew was necessary if it wasn't seen as a worthwhile endeavor. I received some decent feedback from one individual (WidowMakers, thank you) and one other individual commented on it (thank you, John) that I needed to have an image already done so that people could visualize the idea.

I had been pretty explicit in my terminology in laying out the idea, and had attempted to flesh it out...it certainly wasn't just a one-line post. And yet, I received almost no useful feedback of the sort I was requesting, which was an attempt to find out whether the idea was worth pursuing or not.

Apparently, in order to get workable opinions in the "Map Ideas/Suggestions" forum, one needs to have already gone into great depth with an image and gameplay worked out, otherwise it's not worth anyone bothering to comment on. This in...again, in case you missed it...the "Map Ideas/Suggestions" forum. Here's the link: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=80593

As someone new to the forum, I quite honestly have found you as a group to be insular and elitist. Admittedly, my experience is somewhat limited, but get this...it's limited because of the sort of response I've gotten (or not gotten).

And I'm not even going to get into my most recent experience (though a thank you is in order to oaktown for being receptive to my comments enough to drag me back to that thread after I had given up on it also due to...well...I have difficulty describing it in terms that aren't inflammatory).

I think if someone looks at my activity on the site (# of games active, # of ongoing tournaments being run (with premium prizes) and # of active posts), it's clear that when I feel like I'm making a good and welcome addition to the site, I am very willing to follow through and I am very committed to the site itself.

There's a reason I haven't been very active here. Maybe someone will actually get that. Somehow, I honestly don't believe it will happen though, which is yet another sign of the problem.

[the.killing.44]

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=127&t=33966&hilit=+Leaving+Leaving
Now this will prove everything I am saying

That thread was from November 2007. The current stamp, subforum, and CA system (well, there were CA's but not in the same role as now) was created over 2008 New Years. That's when oak and gimil came on board, the Ideas sub-forum was introduced, the current announcement Mapping Handbook released, and the like. We've evolved from then, and I'm sure we'll evolve from that, but if you're going to prove a point about change you should at least check your facts about what we're changing from. What DiM, a big revolutionary, was talking about was a lot that happened over the New Years.

perhaps the foundry needs some new rules,
done — mapping handbook
or a few more attendants,
done — influx in members/mappers
or more open minded cartographers
done — whether he was referring to CA's, the current ones as well as Coleman and cairns were definitely an improvement over KEYOGI. if he was referring to the mappers, then XML updates, better maps, and the fact that with more people come more ideas all applies.

Someone will likely see that I joined October 2008 and use that as an excuse. Well, sure, but I think I know what I'm on about. Plus there are plenty of experienced mappers who have posted and are here to either back what I'm saying, contradict it, or correct it.

.44

[Danyael]

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=127&t=33966&hilit=+Leaving+Leaving
Now this will prove everything I am saying

maybe reread that first post in that topic and maybe you will see that the foundry is becoming that way more foundry assistants better crap filter and i think better maps that have been lot more thorough

as for everyone working on there own and not helping anyone else is also getting better for the most part due to the current setup of the foundry forum

but spamming it only causes more problems due to the fact the you just cover up peoples updates such with pointless bumps
edit::
.44 fastpost
i concur
damn slow typing fingers

[sailorseal]

Kill: The fact that you ignored Woodruff's point proves that you have no response and that he is right. Try and comment on all of the facts.
(I was fast posted)
Dan: Now the irony, etc.
But really I disagree

[Woodruff]

Kill: The fact that you ignored Woodruff's point proves that you have no response and that he is right. Try and comment on all of the facts.
(I was fast posted)
Dan: Now the irony, etc.
But really I disagree

I don't believe kill was ignoring me (I could be wrong). My post went out JUST BEFORE his (notice the times). I don't believe he's even noticed my post yet, to be honest.

[the.killing.44]

Kill: The fact that you ignored Woodruff's point proves that you have no response and that he is right. Try and comment on all of the facts.
(I was fast posted)
Dan: Now the irony, etc.
But really I disagree

I don't believe kill was ignoring me (I could be wrong). My post went out JUST BEFORE his (notice the times). I don't believe he's even noticed my post yet, to be honest.

Woodruff got it. I was fastposted by him, and figured I'd still post it. I'll get to him later, perhaps.

Sailor: The fact that you ignored my point proves that you have no response and that I am right. Try to comment on all of the facts.

.44

[Danyael]

i did not see woodruff post before mine but what happened to his thread was that it got derailed right off the back
with a post about a different topic
i thought woodruffs idea was better but thats my opinion
as well i looks Like WM was trying to get his gears turning by suggesting he would add a pic but then i believe that woodruff took this the wrong way

A picture is worth a 1,000 words
Also, just because there is an idea that is cool and works well, does not mean that it would fit into a 630x600 image.
And by you working out the image, you show the rest of the viewers that you are serious about the project.
Again just my 2 cents.
WM

A picture cut-and-pasted from the internet doesn't show seriousness at all, in my opinion. I COULD'VE EASILY done that, but felt that would be the opposite of actually being serious about the project.

instead of working on it alittle and even draw a crappy map and improve from there
but instead let the thread die
a crappy map is better then nothing you just need to not give up and people take notice

[Woodruff]

i did not see woodruff post before mine but what happened to his thread was that it got derailed right off the back
with a post about a different topic
i thought woodruffs idea was better but thats my opinion
as well i looks Like WM was trying to get his gears turning by suggesting he would add a pic but then i believe that woodruff took this the wrong way

A picture is worth a 1,000 words
Also, just because there is an idea that is cool and works well, does not mean that it would fit into a 630x600 image.
And by you working out the image, you show the rest of the viewers that you are serious about the project.
Again just my 2 cents.
WM

A picture cut-and-pasted from the internet doesn't show seriousness at all, in my opinion. I COULD'VE EASILY done that, but felt that would be the opposite of actually being serious about the project.

instead of working on it alittle and even draw a crappy map and improve from there
but instead let the thread die
a crappy map is better then nothing you just need to not give up and people take notice

I get that, but that's not the point. All I was looking for was "dumb idea" or "good idea". Not difficult, and really does NOT require any sort of an image. I frankly didn't want to waste my time. I'm more than happy to spend my time working on a map, but wasting my time without knowing whether the idea is even a good one doesn't appeal to me. And of COURSE I let the thread die...it was dead from the moment it was started. That's my primary complaint, in fact.

[Danyael]

I get that, but that's not the point. All I was looking for was "dumb idea" or "good idea". Not difficult, and really does NOT require any sort of an image. I frankly didn't want to waste my time. I'm more than happy to spend my time working on a map, but wasting my time without knowing whether the idea is even a good one doesn't appeal to me. And of COURSE I let the thread die...it was dead from the moment it was started. That's my primary complaint, in fact.

edit::

so my point is instead posting to post post when you see its a necessity or there is thought put behind it cause this angers people that put so much thought and time in there maps and ideas that derailing it right off the bat with sarcastic reasons (note map ideas mainly and a lot lately) this makes new members to the foundry not feel welcome and/or makes them leave if not derailing others ideas in the long run

edit:: added what i first quoted in this topic
just my thoughts
i agree spending time on something that fails suck

but how can one improve if they give up before you put your best foot forward

maybe next time
or anyone for that fact only wants a good idea or bad idea comment primarly then put that in your subject
and of course some flames might come but i bet you outcome might be better if thats all you want to know

best of luck with new ideas and maps
remeber just because your painting doesn't make a church ceiling doesn't mean it was a waste of time

[TaCktiX]

I suppose after thread winning 3 pages ago I need to go into more detail. I first started in the Foundry as the new Stamp system was being released. Thanks to an insane project that some people might remember known as Map Stats, I believe I have more knowledge of the Foundry from mid-2007 onward than anybody save the C.A.'s (Coleman, Gimil, and Oaktown) and Andy. I have quenched a map, one that I was told numerous times by multiple people "it sucks, drop it." I was admitted into AADOMM several months before my map getting quenched purely because my attitude was good.

That is my pedigree, which informs everything I am about to say.

The Foundry has been constantly improving ever since I've been here. When Stamps first came out, how to pass them out wasn't very defined, even with a full writeup on requirements. I remember when Drafts were mixed in with a bunch of mapless Ideas, and any new mapmaker had to compete with the latest calls for a Star Wars map. Then to clean up the Foundry all manner of old and dead maps were tossed into Ideas. Great times indeed for someone like me, trying to get a map about a campus virtually no one else has heard of moving forward. Did I mention I had to compete with comparisons to CCU? Or that my Photoshop talent wasn't anywhere near the standard a lot of the experienced folk out there?

Fast forward to now. Mere weeks ago the system changed to involve more people (more CA time per map), cover more parts of the process (instead of one CA in charge of several different things), and encourage the involvement of anyone willing to help. I'm proud to be a part of this system, even if my part is likely very minor (play the maps as they release, note problems, work toward solutions; nothing like what iancanton does for Gameplay). The system has already changed, and in my opinion, for the better.

As I said earlier, complaining about the problem will not create solutions. Go out there and do something. Be involved in making every map better. I've started systematically Attacking each draft in the Drafts forum. Quantity PER MAP is quality. Being able to said you one-linered every single map accomplishes virtually nothing. Being able to say that you had a direct effect on how a map has progressed has satisfaction enough for me. Virtually every map I have Attacked since January has my mark on it, the one thing the Foundry promises anyone who gets INVOLVED with a map. You can go skindeep with everything, or better yet, be fully involved with part of it. I'm up to that challenge, the other Foundry Assistants are up to that challenge, all of the old-timers that have been in this for years are up to it. My one question to you is: are you?

[oaktown]

just about a month ago I mentioned to the foundry mod team that we have gone a long time without one of these little revolutions. They happen every six months or so, and they're always about the same problems: the Foundry is cliquey, the process is too subjective, new mapmakers/posters aren't treated with respect, folks outside of the Foundry are afraid to come in here, there's a cancer in the Foundry, etc. For what it's worth, here are my thoughts...

The Foundry functions as a community, and is therefore based on relationships. If you want to call that "cliquey," go right ahead. I call it life. The longer you stick around the more you come to respect the opinions of certain individuals, and you learn to roll your eyes at other individuals - that's the way the world works. If I have a question about graphics, gameplay, or XML, I know who I want to turn to for answers. And if I am fed up by somebody's bullshit, I have other people I turn to. That's the way a community of individuals functions, both in the real world and online.

(And for anybody who thinks that the AADOMM is a group of folks who think we're better than the rest of you losers and that we're doing uber-secret special stuff, I will let you in on a little secret: most of the posts in there are all about calling each other douches. Really. Well, that and mibi telling showing us the latest poster he made. It's pretty exciting stuff. Oh, and I voted the third "AADOMM" option just to be an ass. )

The Foundry process is very subjective, and it should be. If I just had a checklist of what I have to have on a map, I could make an acceptable map in two days and have it live for play. A purely objective process would be well suited for me and cairnswk and anybody else who has made a few maps, because we have figured out how to make smooth borders, clean text, and write code. It would, however, drastically reduce the quality of the maps we play on. This process would be nothing without subjectige, constructive criticism.

The real matter isn't whether or not the process should be subjective, but who are the gatekeepers. Was I the best choice to be gameplay CA for eleven months? Is MrBenn the best choice for Drafts CA? Gimil for graphics? Hell, I don't know, but I was asked to give it a shot and I said yes. If by saying yes I instantly became part of the problem around here in your eyes, so be it.

The process is really hard on new mapmakers. It really friggin is. Over the two years that I've been around we have developed a lot of expectations, many of which are unwritten and can overwhelm a new mapmaker. But I think that the expectations are applied fairly evenly to new and old mapmakers alike - which is why we've seen two of our most prolific mapmakers withdraw from mapmaking in the past month out of frustration with the expectations we have for each other around here.

Is anybody specifically targeting new mapmakers? Of course not. None of the old hands is trolling the map threads of new mapmakers just to tear them a new one and send them screaming to their mamas. But none of the old hands is stepping up to coach new mapmakers through the process either - which is something that I intend to do now that I've freed myself of some other responsibilities. (More on this later.)

Non-foundry CC users think we're nuts. Let's see... we spend six months of our lives crafting a map image that may never be played, with no hope of reward other than another hash mark on a medal. Yeah, I'd say we're nuts. The place can still be confusing to newcomers, and many first time posters get flamed (as Woodruff did this week -- thanks for sticking around despite that, and I hope we see more of you). Yet in my opinion we have more thoughtful, active, talented new blood around right now than we have in ages. There are some really nice maps out there right now by new mapmakers, as well as some pretty awful ones.

The Foundry is going through some growing pains. Eighteen months ago, the Foundry staff was basically one person: Coleman. Andy stuck his head in now and again, but Coleman ran the show. And it worked, because there were only about a dozen serious map threads going at a time. When it got a too big for Coleman, Gimil and I came on and we introduced the Gameplay and Graphics stamps, and the place ran pretty smoothly for most of a year. Now the place is bursting at the seams, and we're trying to sort out how to best run a Foundry with dozens of maps in various stages of development. The CAs have to spend more of their time playing disciplinarian than looking at maps (which is why I gave up the post), and we've both new and veteran mapmakers picking up their toys and going home angry.

Do we need some change around here? Sure, but that doesn't mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater. We've been through such growing pains before and we've sorted it out. This is our mess, we made it, and we need to figure out what to do about it. We're all a part of the problem, and we can all be a part of the solution. So if you have any possible solutions, throw them out there.

I'll stop there... I really should bookmark this post so I can re-use it in six months when this comes up again.

[the.killing.44]

most of the posts in there are all about calling each other douches.

oaktown - he said that we called ourselves douches: DOUCHE!


listen to oak and tack, and let this thread be done with, please.

.44