Castle Lands [Quenched]

[pikkio]

i'm not an expert of gameplay, so i wait the opinion of somebody else before i make changes on the starting neutrals (iancanton gave me the gameplay stamp with that starting positions, so i think i can't change it without his ok). however, in my opinion, 1 army is too poor and if i must change it i prefer to start with 2 neutrals in towers and castle too.
we discussed a lot about it, and try to take the castle and towers is a good choice in every case because if you hold all the inner territories, then you can defend all they by the bridges and only from bombardments by the towers/castle (you gain 17 bonus and defend from 4+5=9). i suppose that defeat that neutrals is a good price for this deal!

I'm missing something here I think. I'm not sure why someone would actually attack into the castle. You talk about a 17 bonus including the bridges (which is going to be something you're only going to get at the end of the game when you're strong) which would be +5 for the bridges and +8 for the court for a total of +13. Adding in the towers for +4 brings you to +17 so as I read it, even in your numbers nobody is actually attacking the castle.

i'm sorry.. i was wrong with the bonus addiction.. i wanted to say that "you gain 19 armies bonus and defend from 4+5=9 territories". more than the 17 army bonus that i said (wrongly), i think that is a good price to spend energy to defeat 2+2+2+2+4=12 neutral armies and then gain 19 bonus defendable from 9 territories.. but like thenobodies says, someone else can decide that it's not a good deal and try another strategy.

In truth its your map and if you're comfortable with the castle, for the most part, being out of gameplay that's OK but it seems to me that that's where it is at the moment. If you're OK with that, I'm OK with it.

i said that i'm not sure that now it's better than your propose. i said that i wait some other opinion about it, and in particular i will wait the opinion of iancanton before i decide to change it, cause he gave me the gameplay stamp with that starting neutrals and i must be sure that he prefer a change.

[captainwalrus]

I like it, but I see several problems.
First, The bonuses seem a little high for the fields and dessert, the should be 4.
Does the castle start nutural?
What can attack the towers?
Change the name of Quicksand, cause they would try to avoid quicksand not use it to put thier catipult on.

[pikkio]

hihihi, i didn't know what is the meaning of quicksand.. yes, it's quite ilarious think to put a catapult on a territory called quicksand..

i swap that name with the flats.
i also changed the phrase about the flags on the legend, it's correct or there some grammar errors?
i putted 2 flags on the legend to be more clear about what the phrase means.

version 8.9 BIG

Click image to enlarge.

version 8.9 SMALL

Click image to enlarge.

answering at captainwalrus:
- yes, the castle starts neutral but we're just discussing about the amount of neutral armies on it. you can see here the actual starting positions.
- towers can be bombarded from the catapult with the same coloured flag (like it's explaned on the legend) and can be attacked from castle and the adjacent courts. every tower had 2 little doors to make it more clear as possible.

[thenobodies80]

First, The bonuses seem a little high for the fields and desert, the should be 4.

Mmm, i'm not sure.

If we set a +4 bonus probably players could suffer a lot the towers bombardments and they will spend all bonuses armies only on holding the continent himself.
Anyways i take a note on your suggestion
If there's a reasonable amount of members that suggest the same thing, or the gameplay will suffer this thing in the beta stage we will change it happily.

Thank you
TNBDS

[iancanton]

i'm not an expert of gameplay, so i wait the opinion of somebody else before i make changes on the starting neutrals (iancanton gave me the gameplay stamp with that starting positions, so i think i can't change it without his ok). however, in my opinion, 1 army is too poor and if i must change it i prefer to start with 2 neutrals in towers and castle too.
we discussed a lot about it, and try to take the castle and towers is a good choice in every case because if you hold all the inner territories, then you can defend all they by the bridges and only from bombardments by the towers/castle (you gain 17 bonus and defend from 4+5=9). i suppose that defeat that neutrals is a good price for this deal!

barterer2002 makes a good point that the +19 bonus is often only theoretical because many people, thinking it's impossible, won't even try for this. it's helpful that there are no easy bonuses on the board, so maybe people will attack the castle even if they don't think about the +19, since it might be the only bonus where someone needs to gain only 2 territories.

at the moment, we have 4 neutrals on the castle: if player 1 deploys 4 armies in the court on turn 1, then he has a 40%-45% chance of taking the castle (without help from the catapults). if the castle starts with 3 neutrals, then the chance of player 1 taking the castle increases to just over 50%. if the castle starts with 2 neutrals, then player 1 has a 65%-70% chance of taking the castle on turn 1. i recommend that u do not reduce the neutrals to only 1, but i am happy with 2, 3 or 4 neutrals on the castle: each will lead to a slightly different strategy. what u need to decide, pikkio, is how u want to balance the strategies.

The bonuses seem a little high for the fields and dessert, the should be 4.

the fields and deserts are difficult bonuses and it's not possible to expand quickly to anywhere so, even though there are good arguments for reducing these bonuses, i fully undertand why they are 5.

ian.

[Incandenza]

So I understand that the map is stamped, but I have a small thing:
does it bother anyone besides me that the catapults are copied over from civ 2? (I think it's civ 2, could be civ 3, but they're definitely not original or even somewhat altered works)

[oaktown]

- towers can be bombarded from the catapult with the same coloured flag (like it's explaned on the legend) and can be attacked from castle and the adjacent courts. every tower had 2 little doors to make it more clear as possible.

This will need some additional clarification - since the walls are impassable, I can't actually figure out how you take the castle from the outside. By "courts" you mean the land territories outside the walls? If so, does Knight border Forest Tower?

Color blind issue: I can follow the borders in the forest, mountains, or desert.

does it bother anyone besides me that the catapults are copied over from civ 2?

Hmm... can you address this? We've had past maps pulled because of copyright issues, so let's sort this out now.

[pikkio]

- the courts ARE the territory outer the walls and inner the moat. like it explaned by the colour in the legend. and it's clear, cause it's the only country that is not immediatly sure. the forests country is obviusly where are the forests, the mountains country where are the mountains, excetera.
- knight don't border with any tower. it border with the wall. i try to made it much clear it's possible. if somebody think that it's not too clear, tell me HOW can i made it better or i don't do anything cause for me it's too much clear right now.
- i will try to make more clear the border of the forest (now the trees are a little bit on the borders cause i like the 3D effect that it makes, but if you prefer i will eliminate it).
- i really don't understand what it's not good with the borders in desert and mountains.
- like i said 2 other times in this topic, the catapults are from civilization 2. in particular from the free windows version. but i make a screenshot and cut it and then i modified the colour and the contrast and the dimension. instead the catapults in desert and mountains are made by me in false back prospective. i cutted every single part of the original catapult and remount they (with some little object made by me) trying to seems a back prospective. i don't know if there are rights about the graphic in the free version of the game, but i think that thoose catapults are not the original graphic.
by the way, i tried to find a good catapult image too many times (i had another one in the first maps) and nothing it was adeguate, so, if i must change they, someone must give me another adeguate catapult icon, or i will abandone this map.

sorry guys, but i'm too much boring about this process. one thing is try to have quality maps and not a lot of mediocre maps (like others sites), and one things is be badder than a boss and force the mapmakers like they're workers on a cinese factory. remember that we're not paid and we're volounteers who want only to give an help. if i knew that i will get an hard (free) job like this, i will never decide to help the comunity making a map, but i will try to find a graphic designer (paid) job.

so, if you want to help me i will finish this map (fast), otherwise i will abandone it cause i'm not still stimulate and i want to come back to my normal life (and job).

[thenobodies80]

the problem with the borders is a colorblind issue.
Colorblind people could have some problem in distinguish the colors.

Sorry for the following italian language :

"i colori vengono associati in maniera diversa dai daltonici e arancione,giallo e verde possono essere confusi"
è contemplata come regola iniziale.

3) Cartographers must, where possible, reduce any disadvantage that can be caused to a colorblind individual.

I'm working on legend, i like if someone can help pikkio with catapults.
Come'on pikkio we have to finish this fantastic map!
The end isn't so far...

TNBDS

[oaktown]

Hey Pikkio, I understand your frustration right now - getting the final details right on a map can be a drag, but when it's perfect you will hapy with the final product.

I see now that the "Courts" are the land around the walls. My trouble is that the walls are "impassable" - so how can the courts attack them? What I really think you're trying to say is that the four straight wall stretches are impassable, but the Towers (which in my mind are a part of the city walls) are not. This is not clear from the map.

One possible solution: introduce a siege tower on the territories that you want to have attack the Walls, and not in the legend that Wall Towers attack Siege Towers and vice-versa. Or explicitly state somehow that towers are the routes in and out of the castle.

As for the catapults...

*The Copyright Agreement
The author retains copyright on their work, and gives Conquer Club permission to use the imagery free of charge, for as long as Conquer Club sees fit on the Conquer Club website. Conquer Club cannot sell, lease, or lend the right to use the images to anyone else. The author swears that their map is their own work, or a legal derivative work and by submitting it, do hereby claim all responsibility for that being true.

I haven't played Civ recently enough to remember what the catapults look like, but whether or not you are using a free version of Civ is not the issue. Images lifted from another game are somebody else's work and are subject to copywrite. Likewise, if some free CC user took this map and posted it on another website as their own work, they would be guilty of stealing your work. If, indeed, you have significantly changed the catapults and made them your own they're probably alright. Since I haven't read back through the thread, where do the other images come from - windmills, houses, trees, etc?

Borders: the colors of the borders in the desert and in the mountains are simply difficult for me to make out... for instance, I can't tellif that lone tree below the flats is part of Quicksand or dead space. A bit more contrast with the surrounding color would help me out.

[pikkio]

I see now that the "Courts" are the land around the walls. My trouble is that the walls are "impassable" - so how can the courts attack them? What I really think you're trying to say is that the four straight wall stretches are impassable, but the Towers (which in my mind are a part of the city walls) are not. This is not clear from the map.

not long time ago, i made towers and walls by different colours, but then the people push me to change it and made by the same colour. by the way, i don't know if the english language is so nebulous, but in italian every word means a specifically thing and TOWERS (torri) was inconfondible with WALLS (mura).

One possible solution: introduce a siege tower on the territories that you want to have attack the Walls, and not in the legend that Wall Towers attack Siege Towers and vice-versa. Or explicitly state somehow that towers are the routes in and out of the castle.

yeah, it will be a great idea if i can make a map bigger than the foundry standards... but in every case it will be an hard work. it's quite impossible to find a catapult that is clear in that size (infact i found only a copyrighted one..) and now i must find a siege tower too? and where can i put it? it's very difficult to put the names and one little house here and there, if i must put a clear icon of a siege tower in 4 courts, i think that it will be too caotic..

and for the colours, how can you think that a man will not explode if after month of work and 3 stamps now he must have to change the colours of 3 continent cause maybe a colourblind can't distinguish they??
sorry oak, i'm not angry with you and i always appreciated your suggestions, but now i'm very angry with the foundry process and i can't keep going right there.

[danfrank]

I think the map maker did a wonderful.. now that he has a graphic stamp. How can OAKTOWN ask him to change the graphics ?.. The borders surrounding each territory are quite clear.. I have no issues with the labeling of regions and understand the map verly clearly.. I dont expect a straight answer to my question. Especially from oaktown. He has a few maps in play that are not quite clear and his maps will never have to tinker with the graphics after a stamp..

[MrBenn]

I think the map maker did a wonderful.. now that he has a graphic stamp. How can OAKTOWN ask him to change the graphics ?.. The borders surrounding each territory are quite clear.. I have no issues with the labeling of regions and understand the map verly clearly.. I dont expect a straight answer to my question. Especially from oaktown. He has a few maps in play that are not quite clear and his maps will never have to tinker with the graphics after a stamp..

The primary concern raised about the graphics are whether they infringe somebody else's copyright.

The concern about the walls/towers was more about making those routes clearer either by explicity explaining it, or by adding some detail... Personally I think the instruction can be made slightly clearer, which would be the case if I was trying to make a map with Italian instructions

[iancanton]

the walls are "impassable" - so how can the courts attack them? What I really think you're trying to say is that the four straight wall stretches are impassable, but the Towers (which in my mind are a part of the city walls) are not. This is not clear from the map.

One possible solution: introduce a siege tower on the territories that you want to have attack the Walls, and not in the legend that Wall Towers attack Siege Towers and vice-versa. Or explicitly state somehow that towers are the routes in and out of the castle.

the towers have passages which are dark-coloured (because they are in shadow), so we can tell that these dark passages are the routes into and out of the castle. however, the front two towers have army circles that cover the passages so that we can't see them properly. if we make the passages' shadows darker (almost black) and move the front two towers' army circles so that we can see the dark passages, then i think each tower's attack routes become obvious, without needing siege engines.

can u change abbey to abbot? an abbot is the chief monk of an abbey; an abbey is a building. all of the other court regions are named after people, not buildings.

ian.

[RjBeals]

Did the catapults also come from a different game?

[pikkio]

Did the catapults also come from a different game?

the problem is that the catapults come from civ2. the other objects come from free images sets. i must change the catapults with someone that don't come from a game but i don't find nothing good looking in that size.. if somebody help me i can go on with the map, otherwise i'm in stall.

thenobodies had a good idea for the problem about courts and towers (wich can attack wich), so when i have the time i will post a new version. but since i find a new catapult i can't go on with this map.. sorry.

[Qwert]

by pikkio » Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:33 pm

RjBeals wrote:
Did the catapults also come from a different game?

the problem is that the catapults come from civ2. the other objects come from free images sets. i must change the catapults with someone that don't come from a game but i don't find nothing good looking in that size.. if somebody help me i can go on with the map, otherwise i'm in stall.

thenobodies had a good idea for the problem about courts and towers (wich can attack wich), so when i have the time i will post a new version. but since i find a new catapult i can't go on with this map.. sorry.

If you want i can create you catapult,or trebuchet

[Qwert]

well trese is best what i can create,i belive that look good

[fumandomuerte]

From Tribal Wars.

[Danyael]

Color blind issue: I can follow the borders in the forest, mountains, or desert.

i very colourblind and i have not issues with the borders or the flags the red it the mountains doesn't pop out but they are visible

[thenobodies80]

From Tribal Wars.

are you suggesting to use this or are you saying that the one we or qwert used is that you posted?

I think that a catapult is a catapult...i think we can find everytime and somewhere a catapult similar, yet used in a game!
I vote for qwert one with some modifications on shadows...but i like to know what pikkio think about...

TNBDS

[pikkio]

well trese is best what i can create,i belive that look good

wow!!! i will never can make anything better than that!!

please, can you post the image with only the catapult? maybe with transparent background..
and can you send me a mail with the original working file? maybe a bit bigger, if you have it, cause if we have to make some tweak it's better.

thanx a lot qwert! i don't have words to tell you my gratitude!

[Qwert]

[fumandomuerte]

From Tribal Wars.

are you suggesting to use this or are you saying that the one we or qwert used is that you posted?

I think that a catapult is a catapult...i think we can find everytime and somewhere a catapult similar, yet used in a game!
I vote for qwert one with some modifications on shadows...but i like to know what pikkio think about...

TNBDS

I'm giving you another option, that's all. I like the concept of the map a lot btw

[pikkio]

ok guys, i did the miracle!

when i looked at qwert catapult i saw some little tweak, but i learned that it's quite impossible to modify that little image.. but when i thought that i need a back-prospective catapult, i learned that it will be impossible for me to make it from the qwert's image..
so i take out my famous obstinacy and i search te web for informations about pixel-art icons. i learn some basilar things and i use my school knowledges (originally i'm a surveyor, but at the college i study philosophy -and now i'm a cook.. ) to make an isometric prospective image of a catapult. When i saw that i can do it, i found the necessary enthusiasm and i work hard 2 days to make the catapult in the 4 angles. first i made it big and then i reduce it at icon size, and when i did it a divine ray came into my room and enlighten me: EUREKA!!

then i changes the courts border, and now i think that it's very clear wich court can attack wich tower.
i also made more marked the borders on the deserts but for thoose problems i think this is the final words:

i very colourblind and i have not issues with the borders or the flags the red it the mountains doesn't pop out but they are visible

so, this is version 9 of big map. if you like it and you think that this is the final version, i will make the small map, but i don't want to redraw it another time so, please, talk now or shout up for ever.

Click image to enlarge.