Poison Rome [Quenched]

[cairnswk]

I think I wasn't clear - the use of Roman Numerals is entirely appropriate this map. I'm just not sure folks will know why they are there - at first I thought they were purely decorative.

Once again, this is an interpretative process, clearly stated in the legend.

[The Fuzzy Pengui]

Like I already said, if I am the only person complaining about it then I see no sense in changing it. However, if you are going to keep the attitude you have, you might as well just ask a carto to lock the thread and either quench or let it drop down to the end of the pile. I'm popping in this late because of the PM I received (I'm sure you looked at the link I included in the last post) from the cartos about coming in and giving my two cents worth.

However, I won't continue to argue about it in here. All it will do is turn the thread into something negative. If you want to discuss how I feel about the map (or your attitude) feel free to PM me.

[Incandenza]

Can you really blame him tho, fuzzy? This map's been floating around for awhile, and then out of the blue a comment like this:

This one doesn't really do it for me. I'm not sure why, but it just looks too cluttered/crammed together, and pretty complex. Plus the background just looks a little too plain (as well as the territories). I know uniformity is a good thing, but too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.

That's my two cents worth, at least.

Uniformly negative, while offering no solutions for what might work better (you did offer some graphical suggestions later, but still). I understand that you're on the last looks mailing list, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're obligated to post if you don't have anything constructive. And more to the point, if it's a map that you clearly dislike and clearly won't play on, why post at all?

[cairnswk]

Lots of small nit-picks have been fixed.

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

http://h1.ripway.com/cairnswk/_poison_rome.xml

[cairnswk]

...
Uniformly negative, while offering no solutions for what might work better (you did offer some graphical suggestions later, but still). I understand that you're on the last looks mailing list, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're obligated to post if you don't have anything constructive. And more to the point, if it's a map that you clearly dislike and clearly won't play on, why post at all?

Perhaps there is something to be taken from this.
It would seem more logical perhaps to send out the final call PM to those who took an interest in the map.

[iancanton]

the VIII between marcus v agrippa and julia the elder looks different from the VIII between agrippina and germanicus.

ian.

[cairnswk]

Lots of small nit-picks have been fixed.

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

http://h1.ripway.com/cairnswk/_poison_rome.xml

[cairnswk]

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

http://h1.ripway.com/cairnswk/_poison_rome.xml

[cairnswk]

the VIII between marcus v agrippa and julia the elder looks different from the VIII between agrippina and germanicus.

ian.

Those should all be fixed now ian.

[oaktown]

I'm sure there will be additional nitpicks (I would like to see some of the text better centered so titles aren't bumping other elements, especially on the smallmap) but the basic look and gameplay are there.

Final Forge

---The Poison Rome Map has reached the ‘Final Forge’ Stage. The map has passed rigorous gameplay and graphics examinations, and major concerns have been addressed. If you have any other concerns, please make your voice heard. If after a reasonable amount of time there has not been any objection or protest, the map will be deemed finished with the 'Foundry Brand' of approval and will be submitted for live play. As long as there is still discussion or posts that have yet to be commented on, the map will remain in Final Forge until said discussion has reached the conclusion that the map has reached its final and polished version.

Post questions and concerns if any.

[cairnswk]

I'm sure there will be additional nitpicks (I would like to see some of the text better centered so titles aren't bumping other elements, especially on the smallmap) but the basic look and gameplay are there.

Done.
Thanks for FF Stamp.
Please refresh to see the changes.

Click image to enlarge.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... e_V36S.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... e_V36L.jpg

http://h1.ripway.com/cairnswk/_poison_rome.xml

[MrBenn]

If you'll allow me to remove my moderating hat for a moment, then I may speak my mind freely and frankly...

The initial concept of this map was good, and I thought that with a bit of work you might be able to pull off something intelligent, informative, and interesting. Here we are, six months later, and I have to say I'm disappointed. This is one of the most cluttered and confusing maps I have seen for some time. You have the gall to criticise people for criticising your map - do you honestly think that this is the best work you have produced to date? As the site's most prolific mapmaker, part of me would hope that you would continue to raise the bar for your own achievements and that you, above all others active in the Foundry, should be able to achieve maps of the highest calibre and pedigree.

There have been a couple of debates in the foundry about quality v quantity, which you have curiously neglected to comment in every time. Part of me wonders whether this is a self-conscious admission that you know the maps you are now producing are not of the best quality?

That aside, the thing that bothers me most about some of your recent posts, is that you seem to think you're above the process. Perhaps you are, because those of us who are in a position to force the brakes on a project rarely do so - especially when it has been on the road for a couple of months already... Anyway, I fully expect that you'll go ahead and berate me for not saying any of this sooner, or just simply ignore me. Either way, I expect this map will be quenched soon (even if I hope it won't). I don't expect to see you in any games on it, because this is one map that I intend to avoid playing.

[InsomniaRed]

show: MrBenns post

Amen, MrBenn. I think this had to be said sooner or later, and I doubt you are the only one with this opinion, because I know I wish I could've said something this eloquently. I may not post in the Foundry all the time but that doesn't mean I don't read the forum and browse all the upcoming maps and I have to agree with MrBenn on this one. Your maps should be getting better and better, but instead, they hardly seem make an impact at all on me, and if they do, it's unfortunately not a great one. We are getting so many maps on CC, I don't want them to just keep building and building and have the quality of the maps get lost.

Also, it seems to me that you think that if you make a map, post it here, and people to comment on it, it will be quenched no matter what and you seem to ignore or brush aside the comments that could possibly be considered critical of you map. Sure, I have seen you accept constructive criticism, but in the end, it seems like you do what you want since you think your maps will be quenched in the end, either way. That's not the kind of attitude you should have.

On another note, you have contributed so much to CC and I think we can all say we appreciate all your hard work and everything you have done, so thank you for all of you previous work, and I hope the your current and any upcoming projects can surpass the ones before it. I don't want you to feel like these posts are 'against' you and your work, just expressing opinions is all.

[barterer2002]

I've waited for 24+ hours for someone to defend Cairns here and nobody has. I will. Not because what's been said isn't truth because some of it is. I think that all the mapmakers can be a bit prickly about their maps-particularly in the final stages.

As far as criticism of his past maps, however, I will say that Cairns has created most of my favorite maps. I love the rail series-all three of them. Cairns Metro, for me at least, is a free flowing, classic style map in the best traditions of CC. In contast, some of his maps like Forbidden City and Waterloo offer extra challenges to those who want a more complicated map. They aren't for everyone and this one won't be either. I don't know if I'll like it or not yet. I'll have to play it a couple of times.

I have to question the process we have here. I don't have solutions only questions at this point. I understand the resistance of mapmakers to the current process. I know that it has worked in the past to an extent. I don't know if it still does though but I don't have a better solution.

On the flip side, it is often stated by mapmakers that they've had the map in the foundry process for several months without most of the community commenting. That is often taken as an abdication of the right of the community to make comments. It should not be. There are any number of reasons that the community does not comment. For one, there are usually twenty or more maps in one stage or another in the foundry process. For most non-foundry regulars, if they are going to comment in the foundry at all they need to pick and choose only a few to work on. Another issue is that many of us who do not make maps can't always make constructive criticisms of things like graphics. We just don't have the knowledge needed to do so. That doesn't mean that we don't want to help but I'm sure that many others feel as I do that the skills of the mapmakers are not close to our areas of expertise.

[gimil]

Cairns has requested vacation status for this (and his other) maps.

[moved]

[Incandenza]

Wow, two highly respected CCers taking a massive dump on a map that's been around for months, without so much as a tiny suggestion on how the map might be improved. Never thought I'd see the day.

One of the things I've always respected about oaktown is that, even if a map isn't exactly his kettle of fish, he keeps an open mind and offers solutions, not just unrestrained criticism and personal attacks (and couching a full-blown slam as "just my opinion" doesn't make it any less cutting, Red).

I dunno what you two were looking for. There isn't anything faintly like this map in the foundry or in live play. Was it going to be a massive hit? No, 'cause it's really complicated. Is it the prettiest map on CC? No, but honestly, who gives a shit? There are so many classic-style maps here that I salute cairns and anyone else that's looking to break outside the mold and do something different within the constraints of our hasn't-been-updated-in-over-a-year XML.

And it's not like I'm a cairns apologist. Like any creative type, he can be prickly (especially at the end of the process), and not every map he does is a masterpiece, but to expect a masterpiece every time out is holding him to a ridiculously high standard.

Damn shame, this.

[neanderpaul14]

Quite frankly I need to agree with Incandenza 100%.

Is this a complicated map?........Absolutely

Are many of cairns' maps complicated?..........Definitely

To be completely honest the first time I played many of cairns' maps they confused the hell out of me the first time I played Waterloo it made my head spin for days. Now I love that map it is one of my all time favorites. I love that map so much I recently created a user-group devoted entirely to discussion and play on said map. The same confusion gripped me when I first played Pearl Harbor, now once again I find this to be one of my favorites.

Benn do you honestly believe each map cairns' puts out should be better than the last? That is a very high order indeed considering some of the masterpieces he has developed in the past. I do not yet fully comprehend this map nor will I until I have played a few but I am certain if it is one of cairns' then I am sure it will be enjoyable, perhaps it may to confusing for many on this site, but then how many on this site play Waterloo with regularity?

[Merciless Wong]

We'll if the high standards of Mr Benn are shutting down people like Cairnswk..................there is a problem.

[neanderpaul14]

Amazing how quickly after these 2 attack posts that Cairns decided to take a break.

[sully800]

Amazing how quickly after these 2 attack posts that Cairns decided to take a break.

Perhaps it is that inability to take constructive criticism that has led to such a large quantity of unclear and rarely played maps.

Cairns has made some great maps, don't get me wrong, but graphically they often look very rushed and overly complicated for no reason. A map with the best or most unique gameplay won't get the credit it deserves if the routes and goals are unclear.

[Merciless Wong]

Once you get to a certain number of forum viewers, its mathematically impossible to not have one negative review. If the only thing that doesn't kill the deal is the highly subjective decision of moderators to ignore the review you end up with a map-making process that is highly sensitive to staying on the moderator's good side.

[cairnswk]

OK. settle in, folks this is likely to be lengthy post....but i will answer the below concerns in a manner that i think they deserve.

If you'll allow me to remove my moderating hat for a moment, then I may speak my mind freely and frankly...
The initial concept of this map was good, and I thought that with a bit of work you might be able to pull off something intelligent, informative, and interesting. Here we are, six months later, and I have to say I'm disappointed.

Whether you have your moderating cap on or not Benn doesn't make one ounce of difference but i am very disappointed with your comments below, and indeed those of other moderators below. And you have a right to be disappointed in your personal opinion, if you made constructive criticism that assisted the map to become better, but from the record below which shows that you had one comment after the map left the Drafts well....poor form i say.

I've moved you into the drafting room... let's see how much interest you get now

Thank you, you gave the map an opportunity.

So, just to clarify, by "family", you mean ONLY the father, mother, and children?

Somehow this needs to be made clearer from the map.
I've only just noticed the gods in the corners... It would be nice if there was more to draw attention to them - maybe some mural/mosaic or something?

This was done.

If you can figure out a graphical way, that'd be the best. But I can't see how you'd do it. Text would be enough, though.

Perhaps a very slight shading - it only needs to be a marginal tint - for each family might help... something like the colour differential on the Middle East map might work, without affecting the overall appearance you've got so far??

This was not done because of the fact that some people represented belong in more than one family.

I've just realised what you're getting at... my mind is now boggling at the bonus structure here...

You became confused here about the bonus structure which is quite different because for some people on the map to get a family bonus you have to hold two families.

Are you intending on keeping the orange numbers (that I'm assuming indicate the family-bonus-value) as they are? I had initially thought they represented some sort of starting army value...

i replied "Well yes. those are gold wedding rings.
Do you have another suggestion" To which you gave no answer.
I made a comment then about Emporer to which you replied "Emperor would be better "
Next,

I think the adoption routes make it too easy to expand from one Emperor to another??

followed immediately after by "[Advanced Draft]"
then on P7,

The present bonus structure is very confusing...

Confusing for you, yes? Not so for others thus far.

I disagree - I still find the bonuses confusing, which is the primary reason I haven't been paying more attention here.
Graphically, I think this is still below the standard we should expect from a 20+ cartographer... so I hope you raise your game on this one.

to which i replied

I think you finding the bonuses confusing and not saying so, should be a situation reversed, where if you are finding them confusing then you should be commenting and paying attention otherwise how do i know that you don't like something...piss-poor excuse Mr Benn. As a CA I would expect that you would comment if you found something confusing.
As for the graphics comment, then your expectations are in line with mine on this one, but for now it is still are version 9.
I didn't see the need for this comment at this time....it is way out of line. As for this map still being in the Drafting Room, I would have to question why this is so.
and while we're at it.....can you do your CA duty and post the results of the poll which finished during the week, and pull the poll down so that if i need to post another, i can do so. Thank you

I gave you a hard time in two cases because i thought that you weren't paying attention, and making the graphics comments at version 9 when gameplay still hadn't been sorted was out of line. This sort of statement aikmed at me when you know very well that i do my best for the foundry got every prickle in my body going.
Next

As people have already mentioned, the resources only serve to add to the confusion...

i made a change to gameplay to see if the foundry would like it, they didn't and you reminded me in this. Fair enough. no problems.
27 Dec

(Advanced stamp)Onwards and upwards

Thank-you. This was after i had added some of the buildings to give this map flavour of Rome.
On Feb 2

Actually, I quite like the brick work in the title. Sure .44 made it too heavy, but the effect could work if it was toned down and blended in a bit more?

The brick work was done after being offered by .44
p25 Gameplay stamped by iancanton on Mar 16.
p25 Graphics stamped by Gimil on Mar 23 after telling gimil that i wasn't splitting the maps until all graphics issues ironed out.
No more comments from MrBenn until page 28.

This is one of the most cluttered and confusing maps I have seen for some time.

Yes it is Benn, but then i can say that about Forbidden City, Waterloo and Rail Europe.
Confusing, well, if you made a comment on the linking structure for the adoptions between the Emperors you seemed to understand that, but how someone like you who produced the bonus structure for Wales (which i have to take my hat off to you for because i thought that was quite original) cannot understand this one, is beyond my ability for comprehension.

You have the gall to criticise people for criticising your map - do you honestly think that this is the best work you have produced to date? As the site's most prolific mapmaker, part of me would hope that you would continue to raise the bar for your own achievements and that you, above all others active in the Foundry, should be able to achieve maps of the highest calibre and pedigree.

Get it right MrBenn. People are being criticised here by me for coming in at the late hour and giving their negative criticism when they have not attended the map at any stage because (I would assume):

1. they are disinterested
If they are disinterested then why are they commenting now. Perhaps it is because you have called them in on the final review process, which in itself would be good if you called in everyone who had commented on the map during development, and not people who have not bothered to comment on the map.

2. they couldn't be bothered or don't have the time
This reason is not good enough for me since most people find the time to comment in other threads about other stuff but when it comes to the important issues of map development, can't be bothered. As i stated before, don't expect me to greet these people with open arms. I have posted before about players responsibility to comment on maps.

3. they find the map confusing
If they find the map confusing, then why aren't they commenting about this in development llke you did. Even when you stated so you still managed to offer nothing to make it less confusing. Most people who find it confusing simply don't care, Most people who know my maps know that i do not always create easy maps. And i have long stated that my maps are for thinking about and challenging that brain that everyone is supposed to have in their heads.

If they find it confusing, or indeed if they make any of the excuses above then fine by me, there are:
1. others who will play my maps because they know of the challenges and like them for that.
2. those who take the option not wanting to play them at all because they don't play like the original classics.

There have been a couple of debates in the foundry about quality v quantity, which you have curiously neglected to comment in every time. Part of me wonders whether this is a self-conscious admission that you know the maps you are now producing are not of the best quality?

Other people concerns about quality vs quantity are their concerns not mine, that's why i haven't been part of that debate.
I know why i am here. You probably all know why you are here too. I am here because for want of all the criticisms that i get from everyone about this or that not being right or good enough, i can still say to you that i enjoy this creative process, and for all of the comments that are given me, i attend to at least 95% of them to ensure that players get what they want when the maps are in development. I don't put myself above the process that has always been the foundry where everyone who makes a decent positive offer of criticism can expect to have something done about that offer.
It's where the offer makes no contribution to betterment or is negative, or is out of timeline, that the process sticks in my throat, and i have seen this over and over again with nearly every mapmaker.

Each map we produce is done so on a volunteer basis to make this site better. It is also done with regard to developing our skills in whatever software were are using. We don't get paid (apart from a trifle premium whereby lackattack is doing very well out of our free hobby time). Therefore i have a view which i'll term the "project timeline" which is simply the alloted time that i will give freely to any map in development due to fact that we are not paid accordingly for going above and beyond.

With respect to that view, while i don't place myself above the foundry development process i am not going to spend one more ounce of my time in many situations developing further a map that i am not being paid for accordingly.

You and some others may have some grandeos idea that every map should be better, but i don't. And I'll tell you why. Since i have an artistic temperament, i recognise that not every piece an artist produces will be better than the last. I have a belief that when people stop commenting about artistic issues in a positive manner and their concerns have been dealt with in a positive manner that the time for the project to be completed is done. This may also coincide with the artist's feelings that either they wish to no longer produce anything on that project because it would undo what has been achieved or the artist gains fulfillment with what has been produced and they have spend enough time on this project. Over a lengthy period of time (many years) one would expect that the artist's skill would improve, but for the process here, some artists will produce many works to achieve that better place while others will do it irregularly and still others will produce it easily. Comparing my skills and ability to other mapmakers is irrelevant to me since they are in a different skills place to me.

That aside, the thing that bothers me most about some of your recent posts, is that you seem to think you're above the process. Perhaps you are, because those of us who are in a position to force the brakes on a project rarely do so - especially when it has been on the road for a couple of months already... Anyway, I fully expect that you'll go ahead and berate me for not saying any of this sooner, or just simply ignore me. Either way, I expect this map will be quenched soon (even if I hope it won't). I don't expect to see you in any games on it, because this is one map that I intend to avoid playing.

Me think that i am above the process. No MrBenn. I don't think that i am above the process. If i was above the process, then i wouldn't have all these 22 maps quenched.

As for moderators forcing the breaks on projects, you were the one who moved this map to the Foundry, you only have yourself to blame when you didn't offer me a reasonable contribution when i contested why the map was still in Drafts. You then failed also to offer anything positive to it while it was in Foundry. Yet you have the gall to now criticise me for getting offended about some others' comments.
I have been on about people getting into maps and making appropriate comments while in development stages ever since i did Cairns Coral Coast. This is nothing new for me and most people know that. If you can't give me the respect of placing a comment in my map while it is in development, don't expect me to be too obliging if you come in after I see the map as being completed.

Berat you, i wouldn't do that MrBenn. But i will give you decent feedback that i think there are three aspects in this production process that are flawed.
1. Final Forge should be only for the XML development and centering.
2. All graphical issues should be ironed out in the Foundry to the best of the foundry's ability and that high expectations of mapmakers should be developed and persuaded in both Drafts and Foundry. A map shouldn't be stamped and then people asked to comment on it by others who have not bothered to contribute to the map. This has been on-going for ages with regard to many developments. If people choose to make minor details comments about a map after it has been quenched then it can be fixed during the beta process which is where gameplay & graphics come in for a hammering from all who play the map.
3. More often than not CA's don't bother to reply to mapmakers who answer CA's comments because CA's don't have the want or desire to continue a decent discussion with a mapmaker who simply wants answers.

If you altered the Foundry rules to state that:
"all graphical issues must be ironed out in a positive manner before a map reaches final forge"
this would go a long way to assist mapmakers.

I have removed the maps for the time being from the Foundry to the Dead Project Bin, because of three factors.
a. I was incensed with your comments MrBenn.
b. I am doing uni studies at the mo, and don't have a lot of time to devote to answering anymore.
c. I also feel that i need a break from the foundry to reflect on some changes that might come about during my absence.

My maps will be returned when i am ready to return.
Others who have posted since will be answered shortly when i have more time.

[Bruceswar]

cairnswk - I wish you the best and a speedy return. I look forward to playing some of your maps.

[cairnswk]

Thanks for the post InsomniaRed....

Amen, MrBenn. I think this had to be said sooner or later, and I doubt you are the only one with this opinion, because I know I wish I could've said something this eloquently. I may not post in the Foundry all the time but that doesn't mean I don't read the forum and browse all the upcoming maps and I have to agree with MrBenn on this one. Your maps should be getting better and better, but instead, they hardly seem make an impact at all on me, and if they do, it's unfortunately not a great one. We are getting so many maps on CC, I don't want them to just keep building and building and have the quality of the maps get lost.

Also, it seems to me that you think that if you make a map, post it here, and people to comment on it, it will be quenched no matter what and you seem to ignore or brush aside the comments that could possibly be considered critical of you map. Sure, I have seen you accept constructive criticism, but in the end, it seems like you do what you want since you think your maps will be quenched in the end, either way. That's not the kind of attitude you should have.

If you think that, then obviously you haven't been following every thread/map that i've made. I have had several maps that went into the bin in the last two years because of lack of support. I don't think that every map i make will be quenched and indeed this particular map underwent a poll to determine if it should be continued before it even got to the stage of having some design features indicative of Rome that it has. The poll results were 50/50, so i decided to continue - mapmakers choice (one of those unwritten rules i believe). Unfortunately for some, there are some on this site who appreciate my work and outside of the box thinking, and enjoy the maps i create. I have always tried to obtain best results for the foundry. but i believe this map is as good as it is going to get with the project time line i place on my time as explained to MrBenn above. If you have expectations outside of that, then you are welcome to voice them anytime, but sadly i will probably not agree with you. I don't place such high expectations on myself because i know that all project artwork has it's own life and some maps will turn out better than others with the software and drawing skills that i have. I would even dare to say that some artwork from some other quenched mapmakers is indeed questionable, and issues have been barged through in order to obtain a quench.[/quote]

On another note, you have contributed so much to CC and I think we can all say we appreciate all your hard work and everything you have done, so thank you for all of you previous work, and I hope the your current and any upcoming projects can surpass the ones before it. I don't want you to feel like these posts are 'against' you and your work, just expressing opinions is all.

And i would like to continue supporting the site with more ideas. I appreciate your opinion, and note your support for MrBenn as a mod, but from your post above, i could hardly think otherwise than you support is not in my favour this time

[cairnswk]

Wow, two highly respected CCers taking a massive dump on a map that's been around for months, without so much as a tiny suggestion on how the map might be improved. Never thought I'd see the day.

One of the things I've always respected about oaktown is that, even if a map isn't exactly his kettle of fish, he keeps an open mind and offers solutions, not just unrestrained criticism and personal attacks (and couching a full-blown slam as "just my opinion" doesn't make it any less cutting, Red).

I dunno what you two were looking for. There isn't anything faintly like this map in the foundry or in live play. Was it going to be a massive hit? No, 'cause it's really complicated. Is it the prettiest map on CC? No, but honestly, who gives a shit? There are so many classic-style maps here that I salute cairns and anyone else that's looking to break outside the mold and do something different within the constraints of our hasn't-been-updated-in-over-a-year XML.

And it's not like I'm a cairns apologist. Like any creative type, he can be prickly (especially at the end of the process), and not every map he does is a masterpiece, but to expect a masterpiece every time out is holding him to a ridiculously high standard.

Damn shame, this.

Well spoken.