Peloponnesian War [Done]

[oaktown]

IMO - letting maps into Play and "changing their gameplay in BETA" isn't what BETA is meant for.

...Does this map have any gameplay problems that should be fixed before release?

I agree, yeti, that BETA shouldn't be a testing grounds for questionable gameplay. But in this case I don't think that there are any problems that render this map unplayable; rather, we have a difference of opinion as to what the best possible gameplay for this map will be. The mapmaker (and others) feel that the map is good as-is, while two members of the jury believed that it could have been improved.

Whether or not the map meets CC requirements for balanced play and game type flexibility was never in question. This map will simply be held to the standard of every other map: once we are able to play it we'll see if there are any tweaks to starting positions, bonuses, neutral values, etc. that could make the map better.

[MrBenn]

The gameplay looks well-balanced in terms of starting positions: nowhere appears to be particularly weak or overpowered [...]

The only concern I have with the gameplay is in relation to the objective... I'm not sure how balanced the option of going for the objective (all 8 shields) is compared to the option of eliminating all your opponents. This shouldn't have an impact on the progress the map makes through the foundry, but will effect the way games are played... Example - I imagine that the Southernmost extent of the Peloponseian peninsular (Argices/Lacedaem...) will only be taken over by somebody going for the shields. To get the shields requires defeating at least 20 neutral armies, in return for only a small bonus. There are not going to be enemies the other side, and it is likely that this region of the map will rarely see any fighting once games are in progress.

I don't have a simple or elegant solution, because I don't think there is one. I'm not suggesting that you should change anything, but just think this could represent a missed opportunity to balance out the winning strategy between opponent elimination and objective occupation.

As I've already said [...] nobody begins with a clear advantage or head-start; this balance can be difficult to achieve, so well-done on that.

[Qwert]

XML is ok, but i say to Forza that its need to post here to be official.

[Qwert]

Also i will add Ancient Grecce in tittle,and in XMl because many people from Name Peloponnesian war will not know what is abouth.

[Teflon Kris]

Nice one qwert - I'm glad your map has moved to the next step. I'm guessing it will be plain sailing now, or at least, plainer sailing and familiar territory.

You've had a bit extra to contend with - the jury system being introduced and the gameplay discussion - I can see your frustration as this wasn't happening before.

Your map got there in the end though and I'm sure loads of people have learnt a lot from those discussions. Especially some deep thinking about game play - some of us might improve our strategies, you never know.

[oaktown]

XML is ok, but i say to Forza that its need to post here to be official.

Forza has indeed indicated that the XML checks out. When I get some time to pour over the coordinates I will post the stamp - I'll be away from my computer this weekend, so I may not be able to get to it until next week. But don't worry, I want to see this one completed as much as anybody.

[Qwert]

Map Checker
http://www.conquerclub.com/mapmaker/index.php

XML
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/11/25/2200203/agr.xml

small
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z188 ... mall5m.png

Large
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z188 ... arge5m.png
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok-here you have all nesessary to everybody can check XML code and check xml coordinate and numbers

[oaktown]

Alright qwert, the army count centering looks good. It is unfortunate that some three digit counts cross into a very busy border on the right side of the map, but considering the size of those territories it really can't be helped.

I'm not sure what Forza did to check this, but he missed at least one mistake:

Code: Select all

<territory>
<name>Skyros</name>
<borders>
<border>Peparethos</border>
<border>Euboeans</border>
</borders>

<territory>
<name>Euboeans</name>
<borders>
<border>Peparethos</border>
<border>Skyros</border>
</borders>

According to the map, Skyros and Euboeans don't border, but the code says they do.

Map Inspect doesn't work for this map, and I'm not sure why. I'll ask Forza about it.

I do have another small concern which, while it won't hold the XML stamp back, it is something you should address before the map is quenched. The attack route from Chalcedonians to Pontus looks to curve downward on the western edge, especiallay in the large map, suggesting that it is pointing back down toward Byzantines. Most of your attack routes move clearly into the army circle or the territory name - I think you should fix this to avoid any confusion.

Also, this map probably has more bottlenecks and dead ends than any other map on the site - I count 16 dead ends. I don't think you should change anything now, but it is something to consider following when this maps goes to live play. There are so many dead ends that it might be fine - everybody gets to carve out a bit of real estate and defend it.

[Incandenza]

I think if this were a more classic-gameplay map, the dead-ends and bottlenecks would be something to worry about (and I'm exactly the sort that tends to worry about them), but given the conquest gameplay, I doubt it'll be a big issue.

[Forza AZ]

XML has been checked and is OK.

[oaktown]

XML has been checked and is OK.

Skyros and Euboeans still has a extra connection. really.

[Qwert]

ok i fix these connection and fix xml

xml
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/11/25 ... 20Code.xml
small
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z188 ... rsmall.png
large
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z188 ... rlarge.png

[Incandenza]

As far as the title, I'd stick with plain ole' "Peloponnesian War." Maybe it'll encourage people to read up on the subject.

[Qwert]

by Incandenza » Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:17 am

As far as the title, I'd stick with plain ole' "Peloponnesian War." Maybe it'll encourage people to read up on the subject.

I dont understand what you mean?

[the.killing.44]

by Incandenza » Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:17 am

As far as the title, I'd stick with plain ole' "Peloponnesian War." Maybe it'll encourage people to read up on the subject.

I dont understand what you mean?

Right now, your title is "A.G. Peloponnesian War" (the A.G. btw IMO is crappy). He's saying just drop the A.G. or anything about Greece, and keep it at "Peloponnesian War" — maybe it'll encourage people to go research what that is.

.44

[Qwert]

Right now, your title is "A.G. Peloponnesian War" (the A.G. btw IMO is crappy). He's saying just drop the A.G. or anything about Greece, and keep it at "Peloponnesian War" — maybe it'll encourage people to go research what that is.

.44

,the A.G. its only in topic title, because i dont have space in topic title to put all words
"Ancient Greece-Peloponnesian War 431 BC--XML is open for check-p-1-23"
In XML Code its can fit normal "Ancient Greece-Peloponnesian War 431 BC" like in map to.

[Incandenza]

Exactly. Besides, if there's really someone out there that couldn't figure out that the map depicts ancient greece after looking at it for five seconds, then that person is probably not smart enough to be able to figure out how to turn a computer on in the first place...

[the.killing.44]

Exactly. Besides, if there's really someone out there that couldn't figure out that the map depicts ancient greece after looking at it for five seconds, then that person is probably not smart enough to be able to figure out how to turn a computer on in the first place...

What's this button do…oh.
And yeah, I know it's only for the title in the thread. But still, I'd rather see you keep it out of the map title when browsing maps or the like.

.44

[Teflon Kris]

I agree, Peloponnesian War 431 BC would be a good title.

If you are really keen on the Ancient Greece tag then I'd say put it at the end - 'Peloponnesian War - Ancient Greece', although this would be a long name.

[Qwert]

Im all ready change tittle on map,and fit nice,also i change in xml to.
I hope that these is not problem?

[oaktown]

Im all ready change tittle on map,and fit nice,also i change in xml to.
I hope that these is not problem?

Map title is up to you - shorter is better in the map finder, of course.

if you would please submit the updated XML for another review by Forza_AZ I'll stamp it as soon as he gives it the thumbs-up, and then it's just about ready for play!

[Qwert]

xml
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/11/25 ... 20Code.xml
small
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z188 ... rsmall.png
large
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z188 ... rlarge.png

[iancanton]

it will also be logical to replace the greek letters in the english words MAP INSET to the roman letters that are normally used in english. the sea names look good in greek letters, since they really are greek names!

since the title has been changed to be 100% in english, i'd like the words MAP INSET also to be in proper english, instead of english-using-greek-letters, which now looks out of place. this hasn't been fixed yet.

if everyone else thinks that the shields look visible enough, then i have no other issues, since i believe the map will play well.

ian.

[Qwert]

Iancanton
since the title has been changed to be 100% in english, i'd like the words MAP INSET also to be in proper english, instead of english-using-greek-letters, which now looks out of place. this hasn't been fixed yet.

if everyone else thinks that the shields look visible enough, then i have no other issues, since i believe the map will play well.

ian.

If you find in all topic 4 person who demand to change map inset,and instead greek letters to put english(not counting your self) i will change,but i dont see why you demand that, these is not out of place,and these is definitly some way to prolonge finish of these map.
"Comunity Like" and "i"d Like" its not same.
I realy dont see why these is for you a problem.
Also i dont understand these constantly "shield Issue". If shield not good visible,then im most crazy map here, and probably blind.
Im realy dont understand how you guys find things,who any normal person will dont call a issue.
Nobody say any bad words about Shields visiability,but you constantly asking"its these visible enough". Do i need to create some sounds codes who will reply to blind person ,what territory is what?!
Ne mogu da verujem kakvi su to ljudi, jednostavno stalno pronalaze nebulozne stvari,stvarno nisu normalni uopste.

[Incandenza]

I agree with ian, now that the title is in roman letters, seems weird for Map Inset to be in greek letters. (sad thing is that I liked the title the way it was... as I said before, "Ancient Greece Peloponnesian War 431 BC" is a pretty clunky title, and I thought it looked pretty cool when it was in Greek letters... ah well).

Shields look fine to me.